A few Shadowrun questions-

So, my gaming group is in the process of starting up a 4e Shadowrun campaign. Ever since I checked out the sourcebook, I've wanted to try a Trollish Adept- the mental image of this 8-foot, 700-lb. troll bouncing around like Jackie Chan and beating the snot out of people amuses me greatly. Okay, so I'm easily amused :smalltongue:

Anyhow, after dinking around with the Chummer character builder for a while (give or take 8 hours >.O), I think I may have come up with a viable... or at least semi-viable... build.

He really doesn't do much other than hit people, but he's very, very good at that. If I've figured out the numbers correctly, he can do 15 boxes of physical damage in one punch (8 STR, Critical Strike x2, and Shock Gloves, using Killing Hands to turn all that stun damage into physical), and has a dice pool of 14 (5 AGI, Improved Attribute (AGI) x1, Unarmed Combat Skill 5, Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat)x1, and a Force 2 Weapon Focus, with a further situational +1 for natural Reach) for Unarmed Combat. Combine that with an initiative of 10, two initiative passes, and an armour rating of 10/11 (B/I, and with... again, assuming I'm reading the rules correctly... full armour rating against fire, cold, electrical, and acid/chemical damage), and I think I've got a halfway-decent combat monster.

Beyond that... he's a pretty solid athlete, can drive a car normally, and has some passable gear. He's basically useless for electronic stuff (between Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure and Simsense Vertigo, he'd be lucky if he could avoid critical glitches from advertising spam), kinda slow, and with all the charisma of a rock. Well, a nice rock (2) >.>

The GM seems okay with my build thus far, and the rest of the team should be able to balance things out in terms of skill- planning on playing him as 'da muscle'- the massive, quiet, sorta dumb guy that just sits there until something needs smashing, whereupon he goes ninja-Hulk on it (Hulkja?).

Basically wondering, given everything... am I missing something, or should I look forward to blissfully smashing anything that comes within reach?

Oh yeh- one thing that I found rather odd... Chummer seems to think that I should be paying double the Power Point cost for my Improved Attribute (AGI) because it raises the agility beyond the normal racial max... but I took the Exceptional Attribute (AGI) Quality, so... shouldn't the Power Point cost be normal?

Finallly, are there any good places online for open-source 4e Shadowrun adventures? Especially ones that cater to less-experienced players/GMs?

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

Basically wondering, given everything... am I missing something, or should I look forward to blissfully smashing anything that comes within reach?

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I can't comment much on the mechanics, haven't played 4e. (Killing Hands didn't affect Shock Gloves or other 'unarmed' weapons in previous editions.) I would suggest stealth if you don't have it - you typically want stealth or speed at any given time. ;)

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Finallly, are there any good places online for open-source 4e Shadowrun adventures? Especially ones that cater to less-experienced players/GMs?

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There's a free mission "Free Taiwan" on DriveThruRPG. Also, the Dumpshock forums and Plastic Warriors are excellent resources.

Personally i would make sure your GM is running a combat heavy game because if his not a character like this can become boring fast.

Big strong punchy runners like this are good for taking bullets and carrying the equipment in a lot of game and thats about all.

My advice is add something to the character that is useful in the build up/leg work stage as well as in combat.

Adding some stealth would let you do some decent recon work.

You have all ready counted out tech which can really hurt but with intimidation and some decent contacts you could be ok at gathering info.

All so being dumb is best avoided in SR as dumb runners are generally dead runners.

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

He really doesn't do much other than hit people, but he's very, very good at that. If I've figured out the numbers correctly, he can do 15 boxes of physical damage in one punch (8 STR, Critical Strike x2, and Shock Gloves, using Killing Hands to turn all that stun damage into physical), and has a dice pool of 14 (5 AGI, Improved Attribute (AGI) x1, Unarmed Combat Skill 5, Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat)x1, and a Force 2 Weapon Focus, with a further situational +1 for natural Reach) for Unarmed Combat. Combine that with an initiative of 10, two initiative passes, and an armour rating of 10/11 (B/I, and with... again, assuming I'm reading the rules correctly... full armour rating against fire, cold, electrical, and acid/chemical damage), and I think I've got a halfway-decent combat monster.

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You won't be doing quite what you think.

Unless your GM is going a bit outside what I consider reasonable, you'll be doing 8/2+2 or 6P AND 6S(e). I would NOT allow Killing Hands to turn the purely technological damage from the Shock Gloves to Physical, even if it is a Weapon Focus (and I'm a bit skeptical of Weapon Focus gloves).

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Oh yeh- one thing that I found rather odd... Chummer seems to think that I should be paying double the Power Point cost for my Improved Attribute (AGI) because it raises the agility beyond the normal racial max... but I took the Exceptional Attribute (AGI) Quality, so... shouldn't the Power Point cost be normal?

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I would say yes, you should be paying the normal cost. Check with your DM.

Thanks for the replies- actually wasn't sure about Killing Hands affecting Shock Gloves, but honestly couldn't find anything either way, so just sort of rolled with it. And it's not my weapon focus (even though Chummer, at least, seems to think it should be allowed *shrug*)- just doesn't 'feel' right to me, for whatever reason.

I'm fairly certain that this game is going to be combat-heavy- at least one of the other players is not really a fan of roleplay, but loves the tactical and combat side of tabletop RPGs. Also, all the players are pretty new to this- the only one to have played before is the GM, and it's been a while for him. So we're not likely to get too terribly complex.

And 'dumb' might be the wrong word for this guy... more just... kinda slow. But we'll see how it turns out. Thanks again for all the replies!

Keep in mind that a weapon focus is just that... a weapon. You don't wear a weapon focus like an amulet; you wrap it around your knuckles, if it's unarmed.

Keep in mind that programs are, generally, pretty stupid. Even compared to a troll brick. ;-)

It depends on if you're going Pink Mohawk or Mirrorshades, but being good at only killing tends to be a bad idea. Even for the Pink Mohawks, there's a whole world of difference between the money a Corp is willing to spend on a group that steals their data and stuns a few guards, and one that steals their data and kills a lot more (and you probably will kill a lot more what with DocWagon and such).

And as always, watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, never trust an elf, and never deal with a dragon.

That's actually the beauty of this build- unless my GM decides to do something rather strange, killing or just knocking out is pretty much at my whim- Unarmed actually does Stun damage, and it's only with Killing Hands (which can be turned off :smalltongue:) that it becomes physical. Also, I don't need to worry about ammo ever :smallbiggrin:

My actual weapon focus is prolly going to be a pair of thin, sturdy gloves. Have to talk it over with the GM first, though.

EDIT- Huh, just realized what was bugging me about something... Mark, you said

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Unless your GM is going a bit outside what I consider reasonable, you'll be doing 8/2+2 or 6P AND 6S(e).

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Wouldn't I be doing 8/2+2 and 5S(e) if the Shock Gloves were on and active? What would reduce the physical damage by six?

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

He really doesn't do much other than hit people, but he's very, very good at that.

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That sort of thing will get you killed quick, chummer.
Everyone should be able to keep a good poker-face, haggle over payment, hide and oh-how-this-should-be-obvious run. You're a ShadowRUNNER, after all, and people with assault-rifles won't wait up just because you need to start up your car.
Learning how to drive your car manually is also a good idea for those "hacker-in-my-central-vehicle-hub" situations.

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Combine that with an initiative of 10, two initiative passes

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Magic, drugs or cyber?
Because I'm a big fan of the second one. Speedballing Jazz and Cram will make you just as fast and the so-called downside is paranoia and hyperactivity... once you slap on that patch, though, the bullets are probably already flying, so neither is really any hindrance to what you're doing. Sure, you're going to crash afterwards, but that's something to worry about for later.
If using magic, find a way to mask your astral signature. You don't want to be leaving a trail of bread crumbs for CorpSec to find. If you need to know why, you won't last long in this business.
Cyber (or that new-fangled bio-stuff) will be cost-intensive, have a relatively low impact on your day-to-day life, but can be detected by scanners. Cheap, easy-to-install scanners that will make getting past security checkpoints a logistical nightmare.

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Between Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure and Simsense Vertigo

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Oof, chummer, I'd hate to be in your shoes. You could be rendered helpless by a crowded mall; all those RFIDs transmitting advertisements (that will get through your Firewall*).
Better hope your Johnson doesn't decide to talk shop in a nightclub.

* I swear, Horizon could probably break through military-grade Firewalls just to tell you about the newest season of Carl the Combatmage. 'course, that's some of the better stuff to get through.

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Basically wondering, given everything... am I missing something, or should I look forward to blissfully smashing anything that comes within reach?

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You, my friend, is going to be the brick of the team; thrown at the window to get security over there, while others go in the back. Don't expect people to shed many tears over not getting back the brick.
Plenty more blunt tools to find among the SINless.

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Finallly, are there any good places online for open-source 4e Shadowrun adventures? Especially ones that cater to less-experienced players/GMs?

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Shadowruns official page has some good ones, knasser has a few others IIRC. RPG.net has an old thread called something along the lines of "101 runs" with 60-something quick-to-flesh-out runs.
Shadowrun requires the GM to think differently than most RPGs, so your GM should remember that players are going to pick their own route and method and just plan the location, NPCs and legwork.
And when I say "plan" I mean "know it well enough to respond to nigh-insane methods of solving problems on the fly"

Also: See the link in my signature.

EDIT:

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Wouldn't I be doing 8/2+2 and 5S(e) if the Shock Gloves were on and active? What would reduce the physical damage by six?

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While illogical from a fluff perspective, I'd like to add a resounding "No."
Your brute of a troll will likely take out one or two people each round either way.

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That sort of thing will get you killed quick, chummer.
Everyone should be able to keep a good poker-face, haggle over payment, hide and oh-how-this-should-be-obvious run. You're a ShadowRUNNER, after all, and people with assault-rifles won't wait up just because you need to start up your car.

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Got a Face I can trust and more situational awareness than most would be likely to credit my big thickie with. Combine that with Charge actions, two initiative passes, and the ability to move PDQ, and the guys with assault rifles are more likely to be bouncing across the pavement ten feet away from where I suddenly am than trying to shoot me. Assuming they can get through my armour in the first place.

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Learning how to drive your car manually is also a good idea for those "hacker-in-my-central-vehicle-hub" situations.

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Got that covered. Not exceptionally well, but he can do it if nothing else.

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Magic, drugs or cyber?

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Magic all the way. Wanted to try a Trollish Adept ever since I ran across the possibility. Planning on taking the astral masking once I hit Initiation; there really isn't much else useful for an Adept in there anyhow (sticking pretty much to core, since we don't have any other books).

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You, my friend, is going to be the brick of the team; thrown at the window to get security over there, while others go in the back. Don't expect people to shed many tears over not getting back the brick.
Plenty more blunt tools to find among the SINless.

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I'm alright with that. This is kind of a training wheels character anyhow- not that I'm not going to invest in him- I do rather like the concept, and he's taking on a certain life in my imagination- but I wanted to keep it relatively simple. And, like I said, I'd been wanting to try this combo ever since I first encountered Shadowrun a little while ago.

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While illogical from a fluff perspective, I'd like to add a resounding "No."
Your brute of a troll will likely take out one or two people each round either way.

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Got that, but... like I said, what is reducing his damage? Or do shock gloves not actually add damage, but simply make a portion of it electrical? How does that work? My initial readthrough made me think that they added 5S(e) on top of your strength damage and whatever other modifiers, and I didn't see anything to contradict that.

Think of them as two different weapons. It's like if D&D characters wanted to add unarmed damage to each of their greatsword attacks (which, now that I think of it, is possible... kindda).

You're either using your glove-taser or doing that whole "chi-nerve-strike-of-doom" thing. So, pick one of the two damage codes and enjoy being able to switch over without wasting actions.

And, if you're looking for usable pre-gens try here

When you punch someone you choose what you are using. You seem to have three different attacks that are just punching and need to choose one.

Are you using the shock glove for 5s ?
Using your killing hands to do your unarmed damage ?
Or finally are you hitting them with a weapon focus, for the damage of that weapon ?

All these do not stack.

Normal gloves are not a weapon. I bet there are brass knuckles or some hardliner glove type deals in some source book.

Of course if you have a weapon fonuc, why do you need killing hands ?

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You're either using your glove-taser or doing that whole "chi-nerve-strike-of-doom" thing. So, pick one of the two damage codes and enjoy being able to switch over without wasting actions.

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So... if I'm parsing that right, I'd be doing either 8(+2/+2) physical damage, or 8(+5(e)) stun damage? Or would the gloves make all the stun damage electrical?

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When you punch someone you choose what you are using. You seem to have three different attacks that are just punching and need to choose one.

Are you using the shock glove for 5s ?
Using your killing hands to do your unarmed damage ?
Or finally are you hitting them with a weapon focus, for the damage of that weapon ?

All these do not stack.

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The shock gloves are more for backup and/or drones than anything else (and to boost the stun damage if need be). The whole weapon focus thing is explained rather poorly in the sourcebook; it never actually comes out and says what the bloody thing is, although the gist that I've begun to pick up is that it's... basically a Longsword +1 (subbing whatever melee weapon you want in for the 'Longsword' part, and increasing the number as necessary for the different grades of focus, of course).

I really don't see where it says that Killing Hands doesn't stack, by the way, unless it's errata someplace I don't have easy access too.

A quick check of the core book tells me that Killing Hands does this- "This power uses magic to turn unarmed attacks into lethal, physical damage. When participating in unarmed combat, you may do normal Stun damage or declare the use of Killing Hands and inflict an equal amount of Physical damage instead."

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Normal gloves are not a weapon. I bet there are brass knuckles or some hardliner glove type deals in some source book.

Of course if you have a weapon fonuc, why do you need killing hands ?

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Because... again, assuming I'm reading it correctly... a weapon focus only gives you a +X to your dice pool for whatever weapon it is that you're using, no bonus to damage or alteration of the damage type. Killing Hands allows you to do Physical Damage rather than Stun with Unarmed Combat.

I only have access to the bog-standard PHB; gaming on a (very) limited budget and don't have easy access to a gaming store anyhow. So the only fist weapon I've got access to is Shock Gloves, which would be... kinda weird... as a weapon focus (also, in the character's backstory- which, admittedly, can be altered easily enough- he got the Shock Gloves and the weapon focus at different times). Obviously, I'm going to have to talk this over with my GM; just wanted to get some feedback on this stuff, and once again, appreciate the help given.

I don't want to dig out my book, but IIRC, your damage with shock-gloves will not be modified by strength, for the same sort of reason that mages can't punch someone will delivering a touch-range spell.

"Shock Gloves: This pair of insulated plas-fabric gloves
has a wire-mesh that discharges electric current when triggered
by impact. The gloves deal Electricity damage (see p. 154) and
have 10 charges (each); when plugged in, they recharge at a rate
of one charge per 10 seconds."

Sounds to me like they just zap people on top of you clouting them.

Again, crunch-wise those two are two distinct types of weapons. In D&D terms, it's like saying that since you're punching people for unarmed strike damage, but since you have a greatsword in your hands, you get that bonus too.

It could be technobabbled away as one of those magic-technology strange interactions, preventing you from both channelling magic through your punch and zapping people.
Unless someone can show me where it says that you're allowed to combine two distinct damage codes? Because that would make the whole "punching through tanks" a minimum-investment deal, rather than something only few adepts could pull off.

Besides, if you're just looking to deal damage, a troll with a bow can easily shoot someone through concrete walls.

So your attacks would be:
Unarmed Strike: [Standard Damage code]+[Killing Hands]+[Equipment modifiers]
Shock Gloves: 5S (e)

Now, if you want to go the "punch-taser" route, Elemental Strike (I think it's called) will let you pick Electricity, turning your regular punch into Electricity stun damage (one of the most powerful options. Sonic is another fun one, and radiation is straight-out broken).

The only damage bonus you'll get for shock gloves is a bonus for net hits on your attack roll. Shock gloves are so little elves can fight well in melee, a troll is usually better just trying to hit people with their fists.

Shock gloves deal flat damage that is not affected by strength. Other melee weapons have strength factored into their damage calculations, but shock gloves intentionally do not(which is a good thing as electric damage is really powerful). Critical strike(or really any unarmed adept power) also doesn't work with them as shock gloves are a weapon, and the powers only work while unarmed. You can make shock gloves into a weapon focus however.

Anyways, a few pieces of advice. If this is your first shadowrun character, I'd suggest agienst playing a melee focused character. Guns are just better than melee in most cases in shadowrun, mainly because it's only a simple action to attack with them, rather than complex. In order to be good at melee you need to really know the rules, grapples, interceptions, attacking multiple targets, all of that.

If you are going melee, I'd suggest going two weapons. This way you can still get two attacks with a complex action, and with your high strength they'll do a lot of damage(and getting weapon focus bonuses on both attacks helps mitigate the penalties for splitting your dice pool). Plus Arsenel has some nice bonuses for weapon fighting and two weapon fighting.

If you still want to go unarmed, remember that you're going to have to go all out. You need to spend a ton of PP on unarmed to make it worth taking, and even grab some of the special abilities in street magic. Unarmed adepts can get some of the highest damage in the game, but they really need to work at it, which means they usually miss out on some of the other utility adept powers.

Also a final piece of advice, you should consider getting some ware, a single point of essence to get muscle toner and muscle augmentation will do you wonders, just don't get synaptic boosters, they're too expensive, the adept initiative booster is worth it.

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

The whole weapon focus thing is explained rather poorly in the sourcebook; it never actually comes out and says what the bloody thing is, although the gist that I've begun to pick up is that it's... basically a Longsword +1 (subbing whatever melee weapon you want in for the 'Longsword' part, and increasing the number as necessary for the different grades of focus, of course).

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Weapon Focuses also enable you to attack astrally projecting magicians or other astrallly projecting creatures ( provided you can see 'em).
They also bypass the Immunity to Normal Weapons power possessed by some spirits and paranatural creatures

While the Shock Glove thing really doesn't make a lot of sense, I appreciate the explanation.

I'm limited to strictly the core book (the 2005 edition, whichever one that is) by both GM fiat and inability to get ahold of anything else, so no Elemental Strike or suchlike for me, sadly.

This is at least partly a concept build- in my OP, I mentioned that the mental image of an eight-foot, seven hundred pound troll bouncing around like Jackie Chan is one that I find distinctly amusing- and something I want to try. I've got backup ideas ready to go as well, assuming that Headjuice here gets geeked early on in, but I want to at least try this :smalltongue:

EDIT- whoops, meant to ask... do Weapons Foci give a bonus to damage, or just to your dice pool for that weapon? And if all they do is a modest skill boost, why are they so insanely expensive?

FURTHER EDIT- Right, got that, thanks, Comicshorse, but the book is maddeningly vague on what one actually is... as in, what physical object your character has on their person... and for that matter, what their limitations and actual effects specifically are.

A weapon focus is just an enchanted melee weapon. When active it provides it's force as dice pool bonus to all attack rolls made with that weapon. It does not apply a direct bonus to the weapons damage, but getting more net hits on your attack roll does translate to more damage. A weapon foci also bypasses a spirits immunity to normal weapons, and it can be taken onto the astral plane(which as an adept you don't care about unless you take the astral perception power, and even then only slightly).

The shock glove thing is really simple. Every weapon has a damage code. Most melee weapons note your strength in the code, for example it might have a damage of (Str/2)+2P as it's damage, which means if you have an 8 strength it deals 6 damage. Shock gloves just have a 5S(e) damage code, which means they do 5 damage, period, no matter how much strength you have. As far as the critical strike and killing hands adept powers, they boost your unarmed attacks. Shock gloves are a weapon(even if they used the unarmed skill), and thus you don't count as unarmed with them.

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

Wouldn't I be doing 8/2+2 and 5S(e) if the Shock Gloves were on and active? What would reduce the physical damage by six?

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I wrote it out poorly.

The 8/2+2 (or 6P) refers to the physical punch with killing hands... not as two separate things, but showing the formula then the total, with the 6S(e) being from the shock gloves.

The total, unless I misremembered Shock Gloves, is 6P+6S(e), or, as I like to call it, "Screw you and the horse you rode in on." ;-)

EDIT: And, FWIW, I don't have a problem with you doing Punch and Shock Glove damage. There's a lot of ways to effectively hit people, and I can easily see an adept incorporating as useful a weapon as a shock glove into his style.

Whoop, math comprehension fail on my part. Sounds like I won't be able to get away with using Shock Gloves as an unarmed attack (finally managed to bug my GM yesterday), although I may poke at it a little, mostly because it makes no sense to me that a pair of gloves would suddenly invalidate strength and unarmed combat powers, unless they're technically a touch attack rather than an unarmed strike (the gloves would break if you just decked someone with them, or something like that).

Random aside: general thoughts on Pepper Punch... as a slap patch :smallamused:

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Originally Posted by TeChameleon

Whoop, math comprehension fail on my part. Sounds like I won't be able to get away with using Shock Gloves as an unarmed attack (finally managed to bug my GM yesterday), although I may poke at it a little, mostly because it makes no sense to me that a pair of gloves would suddenly invalidate strength and unarmed combat powers, unless they're technically a touch attack rather than an unarmed strike (the gloves would break if you just decked someone with them, or something like that).

Random aside: general thoughts on Pepper Punch... as a slap patch :smallamused:

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If he's not going to allow you to use them together, at least ask if you can wear them and use them separately... i.e. "I am going to hit him with the shock gloves, then, while he's reeling from the shock, I will punch him with the Killing Hands."

And if he's not down for that, point out that you can hit people with more than just your hands... a keratin-reinforced elbow from an angry troll is going to cause some pain, especially if he's improved it with Killing "Hands".

Like I said, I'm going to poke at it a bit, see what the rationale is for him- if it's just 'it's not in the rules', then... eh, oh well.

And yeh, my troll has a dice pool of 14 for Unarmed Combat. And it's a point in his backstory that his fighting style of choice is Krav Maga, so... less 'Killing Hands' and more 'Killing... pick a bodypart, (almost) any bodypart :smallbiggrin:

EDIT- Further random questions: is it possible to get the colour changing armour mod on... well, armour? Chummer doesn't want to allow it :smallconfused: