I woke up at 2:30 AM (my time) because I suddenly remembered that the var in varsärk came from varg not varulv. So yeah. I'm going back to sleep.
I woke up at 2:30 AM (my time) because I suddenly remembered that the var in varsärk came from varg not varulv. So yeah. I'm going back to sleep.
Ha ha! Oh my! :smalleek: I'm sorry for filling up your head with this nonsense...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
...and I still cannot stop laughing! :smallbiggrin:
That's what I call dedication! Heck, you'd deserve a seven figure salary if you'd put that much energy into your day job.
Anywho, varg makes a lot more sense (pronounced "varj", modern Swedish word for wolf for those of you who happen to read this). Thanks and sleep tight!
For when you wake up:
Portmanteau? I learned a new word, thanks! Viewed in that light, I agree. And no need to apologize, I'm (hopefully) hardly not what you'd call a good representative of your typical reader in this case. Seriously, you'd have to have pretty damn weird hobbies AND probably speak Swedish to make the same (wrong) connection as I did...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
You think? :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
I'd wager basically only Icelanders and a few language or viking nerds would know how to pronounce that, since AFAIK that's the only modern language containing the letter "ð" (pronounced as the tonal "th" in "father" or "that", while "þ" is pronounced as the atonal "th" in "thick" or "thigh"). I guess a typical anglicised (and swedicised) version would be ulvhedinn or ulfhedinn, so that's what I used for my test build "Ylva Forada Ulfhedinn". But varsärk is still easier (just ignore those weird Swedish dots above the second "a" :smallwink:) and actually sounds better IMO, at least when pronounced as an English-speaking person would pronounce it.
Six figures is plenty, I'm not a greedy person.Quote:
Originally Posted by upho
"Varsark? In human shape?"
"Yeah"
"A what in human shape?"
>Gets shown, and eviscerated.
I imagine that happens a lot with the various PrCs and archetypes in this book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayt
:smallbiggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayt
"Swedish setting with Old Norse etymology nerd"-version:
"Varsärk? A shirt for angry humans, an angry human in a shirt, or an angry shirt in human shape?"
"Yeah"
"Excuse me? You said varsärk, which in this context, according to the Western Germanic langu... AAARGhhHh!!!"
...
...
"Varsärk. Told 'im!"
Seven new feats and one new trait added to the playtest, including the style feats for Chimera Soul.
My assessment:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
- The Chimera Style and Chimera Soul Dominance benefits are probably often missed by a lot of natural attackers and other AoMF users, although likely a lot less by initiator versions. Still OK IMO, albeit perhaps a tad boring.
- Chimera Soul Spikes is also a decent "weakness mitigator/versatility improver", although I believe this will quickly lose value once you've got reliable flight. Question: it doesn't say whether the ranged attack is treated as if fired by a missile weapon or as if using a thrown weapon. It says "fire", but since it's a natural attack it's a bit confusing, and I'm not really able to tell whether the intent was I add my Str or my Dex to the damage. A clarification might be good?
- Crane’s Eye is nice, rewarding you for being a "good doggie", I guess... :smalltongue:
- Giga Roar is also nice, and I love the name!
- Morphic Venom is great insofar I think the Steel Serpent and Chimera Soul disciplines really ought to have their own special thematic combo-feat. The benefit is OK, although I wonder if a DC increase or some kind of limited-use immunity penetration would've been a better idea. Did you consider this?
- Style Shift oh yes! Thank you for returning my first combat round to full capacity, I really appreciate it!
I wanted Chimera Soul Dominance to give Frightful Presence, but got talked out of that. Boring is OK, I think. It's a nice boost without crossing into crazy shenanigans territory. Plus Dominance allows you to treat your weapons as adamantine for hardness purposes so you can be wolverine. :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by upho
Chimera Soul Spikes is a natural attack, and so would use STR to damage as a base, just like the manticore does.
Giga Roar's name was Psybomb's idea. I couldn't resist, so I'm glad somebody likes it.
As for Morphic Venom, immunity piercing isn't really necessary since Sting and Prana maneuvers aren't actually poisons, so they're not affected by poison immunity. In addition, DC boosting is also probably unnecessary since Steel Serpent has some of the best DC boosting stuff out there when you combine its stances and chain its maneuvers properly. This feat was also designed with some of the errata we've been working on in mind, so there's that to consider as well. As a side note, no I'm not going to discuss PoW errata in this thread, it'll get all the attention it needs once its ready to go out.
Style shift looks to be fun. I'm looking for an opportunity to take advantage of its combo with Fuse Styles for some crazy shenanigans down the line. I wonder how much stuff I can actually load up onto one swift action...
Should Chimera Soul Spikes have "knows a maneuver" as a prerequisite, since otherwise the feat is a blank? Or is that common among maneuver based feats?
Do the 3 qualities from Chimera Soul Dominance stack with the 1 quality from Chimera Soul Style, for a total of 4 qualities?
Nitpick - Chimera Soul Dominance calls out Chimera Soul Spines as a prerequisite.
The material looks quite interesting overall.
It doesn't need that because the prerequisite "maneuver known" is contained in Chimera Soul Style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine
No, you get three total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine
That would be because I think spines sounds much cooler than spikes, but the proper name for the natural attack is spikes, so I have to deal with it. :smallfrown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine
Thank you for the catch, I'm glad you're enjoying the material, please feel free to share any additional feedback you have!
:smallfrown: What? But... Why? :smallconfused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
Dude, seriously, listen: you realize we could've, like, gone totally MoMS fused Black Soul Seraph Annihilation Dominance Style and like scared the total crap outta EVERYONE?!?! Would've been like sooo freakin' POWAH-MUNSTAH-MAZING!!!1!
How very grown-up of you. :smallwink: But yeah, I can agree boring is OK in this case. Might even add a touch of seriousness to a discipline otherwise rather crazy thanks to the inherent silliness potential of natural attacks. :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
(Ehh... My mental image of Chimera Soul is now an ICBM launch control room filled with crazy clowns running around laughing, honking horns and throwing pies in each other's faces, and a blue dragonborn guy desperately trying to keep them from pushing random buttons.... Yeah, I should probably take my medicine now. :smallsmile:)
I didn't actually consider that, I admit... *scratches cheek beneath wild-grown sideburn and lights up cigar*Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
Ah, of course! Well, totally spot-on flavor-wise, but unless I'm missing something, I think you should give the poor little spikes a chance to get some love also from Huge sized Str builds. Meaning I think you should make the attacks compatible with related stuff like Belt of Mighty Hurling. If the spikes remain the special snowflakes they are now, I unfortunately see very little reason for a natural attacker to ever go further than CS Style. Especially since Dominance already has a rather limited value, as CS Style and a +3 AoMF (or +4 for rare DR/adamantine) will penetrate all forms of alignment/material DR anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
Actually, when thinking about it, the spikes probably need some kind of increasing benefit in order to remain at all attractive beyond 10th level or so, even if treated as thrown weapon attacks. How about increasing the number of attacks and/or uses somewhat in higher levels?
Sorry, totally forgot about the non-poison poison. Your reminder makes the benefit feel a lot more attractive, I must say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
Oh thanks! I got more than my fill talking about errata related stuff during the discussion in the Fool's Errand thread, at least for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
Why swift when there's Combat Style Master free? It won't let you adapt a new stance, but that likely won't be necessary in a large majority of fights anyways (somewhat dependent on discipline and stance choices, of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla
The reading I have of the feat indicates that the damage does increase by size, and STR is already added.Quote:
Originally Posted by upho
Is what you are looking for the ability to use STR instead of DEX to attack (via a specific magic item)?
I re-read the feat and have to agree that its less good than I thought initially. Initially I thought it was just expend a maneuver to get a use of ranged spikes as a primary attack that could be part of your natural attack routine – that seemed pretty good. But I see now that it requires a dedicated Standard action to use, which makes it much less attractive.Quote:
If the spikes remain the special snowflakes they are now, I unfortunately see very little reason for a natural attacker to ever go further than CS Style.
Maybe make it a swift action + burn a maneuver to use it as part of an attack? Then it acts like a boost and costs like a boost, so balance should not be an issue. The benefit then becomes the ability to (1/round) convert any ready maneuver to an ranged attack-type boost, which seems pretty good.
The drawback in any case is that it’s a ranged attack and those provoke, so even including it in a series of natural attacks is kind of offset by that provocation.
As it is, I agree with upho in that it’s not worth picking up Chimera Soul Spikes on its own merits – you get it if you really want the capstone of Adamaintine claws.
Just as a reminder, Akashic Mysteries contains a pair of feats relevant to the current conversation. Willful Throw lets you use Cha for ranged attacks with investment, Powerful Throw lets you use Strength (no investment needed)
Oh sorry, just realized what I wrote is easily misunderstood. My point was that the spikes are currently neither a missile or a thrown weapon attack, but a pretty unique ranged natural attack. A such, no items, feats or other benefits limited to thrown weapons apply, including Mighty Hurling. And without such a belt, a Huge-sized Str-based build (which is bound to have a pretty poor Dex) won't even be able to hit its own (voluminous) butt with the spikes. So yeah, the spikes are bound to get pretty awful for Str-based builds a few levels after they'd first be able to take the feat. And unfortunately, even if the spikes are changed to be treated as thrown ranged attacks, they'll will remain far from worthy of the quite significant investments their use requires until you reach a level when the 10k for a Belt of Mighty Hurling is pocket change (so somewhere around level 14 or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by ATalsen
And then there's the question of whether making three ranged attacks is ever worth a feat, 2 ranks in Know (nature), 10k, an expended maneuver and a standard action. And if it is, during just how many levels will that remain true for most builds?
I may be wrong here, but I believe you misunderstand the primary purpose of the spikes somewhat. My impression is they're intended to increase versatility by giving you a ranged attack option without requiring you to buy and carry expensive manufactured ranged weaponry. So think of it as the "emergency" thrown weapon, Xbow or longbow at least earlier level weapon wielding builds often carry. Not as something you'd ever want to use while in melee, but more as something you'd use only when melee isn't an option. (Though I question how many levels that use will be worth a feat, since the attacks are locked at three, and obtaining flight is still going to be a high priority for a Chimera Soul focused build, and flight removes the need of ranged weaponry in a very large majority of combat situations.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ATalsen
Which you can get via a +4 AoMF, which also nets you silver, cold iron and magic, while CS Style gives you alignment (freely chosen when entering the style stance). In short, I think Dominance is basically only worth it if you: a) won't be able to have a +3 enhancement bonus on your natural attacks (or +4 if adamantine actually is important), b) don't have and won't be able to get suitable DR penetrating maneuvers to compensate, and c) play in a game where this can be expected to be important. Though the cost of Dominance will of course decrease if you're able to get plenty of use out of CS Spikes (meaning the benefit has been improved), thus only need to invest one additional feat to gain Dominance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATalsen
Oh, that's nice. But I think paying two feats for three soon rather mediocre ranged attacks when you otherwise focus on melee is unfortunately far from worth it. And a feat is otherwise also easily worth more than 10k during a majority of levels, so at least for Str builds, Mighty Hurling is going to remain the superior choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyBomb
Yes, I agree that since most natural attackers will focus on size/strength that spikes won't be of much use to them. A dex-based natural attack will get more mileage, but even for them I think its a marginal benefit at most - not worth the feat for that benefit alone, as it is currently written.Quote:
Originally Posted by upho
Na, I kind of got that impression myself, but I'm of the opinion that a 'backup ranged weapon' serves very little purpose. Certainly you can just buy a bow and do as well in most cases, for vastly cheaper.Quote:
I may be wrong here, but I believe you misunderstand the primary purpose of the spikes somewhat. My impression is they're intended to increase versatility by giving you a ranged attack option without requiring you to buy and carry expensive manufactured ranged weaponry.
And frankly I curse the times when PCs at my table think its ok to grab a poor backup weapon and try to engage a primary threat with it. I'd much rather see them take the round getting out and drinking a potion of Fly.
Exactly!Quote:
(Though I question how many levels that use will be worth a feat, since the attacks are locked at three, and obtaining flight is still going to be a high priority for a Chimera Soul focused build, and flight removes the need of ranged weaponry in a very large majority of combat situations.)
Given the marginal nature of spikes as a ranged attack, I was hoping it would get converted such that it could be used in conjunction with a full attack of other natural attacks to make it more attractive as a feat in and of itself.
Actually you can't get the benefit of cutting through *Hardness* with an AoMF - which is why I called out Adamantine as the goal for the capstone feat. This lets you carve up items with sunder.Quote:
Which you can get via a +4 AoMF, which also nets you silver, cold iron and magic, while CS Style gives you alignment (freely chosen when entering the style stance).
Alignment is certainly nice, and its nice to have the option to cut thru DR/Hardness using a set of feats as opposed to wealth in order to have different things to spend your wealth on, or to work in a wealth-poor campaign.
Perhaps make the number of spikes you shoot increase with the level of maneuver expended? And/or give a +hit/+dmg bonus based on the maneuver level?
Provided I can sell it to my DM, the next character I am going to play will be a werewolf hobgoblin Tetori Monk 10/Lore Warden Fighter 5/Greater Werewolf 4. I'm going to miss the dimensional anchor at Tetori 13 unless I am allowed to buyout the LA, but there is always a phase locking Amulet of Mighty fists and my trips and grapples are going to be scary.
I know it's a bit of a weird thing to ask, but would it be possible to add the spells included in Lords of the Wild as Adept spells? It just feels strange to me that various spells that would fit perfectly for "tribal religious spellcasting-types" or "lesser priests of the moon" aren't available as Adept spells, is all.
Going to be 100% honest here: I completely forgot adepts were a thing, much less a thing with a unique spell list. Currently evaluating which spells they should get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1949
Regarding Feral Vitality: I've seen a thread where people were discussing a possible feat granting fast healing. There was a common opinion that the fast healing should scale, which Feral Vitality doesn't. I can understand the scaling because the more hp overall you have and the more damage you can receive, the less impact this feat has during a battle. It seems off to me that a 20th level character benefits less than at level 1 from Feral Vitality. So is this restriction deliberate?
The thing with fast healing is that it's generally relevant in 2 amounts.
1. 1: this is the point where you will start each fight at full HP, generally.
2. multiples of 5: this is where is actually heals enough to be effective in combat. Fast Healing, at its core, is reactive, 1/turn DR/-. If you have DR 5/-, and get hit 5 times, it negates 25 damage immediately. If you have Fast Healing 5, it negates 5 damage when your turn starts.
Feral Vitality is also a modified version of a Bloodforge feat, Overflowing Life. And since the goal is to fulfill option 1, I don't feel it's necessary to scale it up to the point of being useful in the second sense in high-mid OP groups, which in turn would make it probably broken in low OP groups.
Also, small update: fixed up the wording in Mithral Armament to make it generally cleaner and more user friendly
The proposal was that the scaling was dependent on the character level. So at low levels it would remain at fast healing 2 and only at high levels it would actually reach fast healing 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keledrath
That's... honestly, false scaling. Fast Healing 2 is indistinguishable from 10 at high levels on a practical level. Both are irrelevant in combat, but will top you off between fights unless you're being rushed for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver
The thing is, it's already a feat that people are going to complain about (Fast Healing is generally perceived as much stronger than it is, past the first point), and the difference at high levels between Fast Healing 2 and Fast Healing 5 is actually almost completely nonexistant (3HP/round). And, as mentioned, it's a modified version of an existing feat from Bloodforge, Overflowing Life, and I'd rather not just make a stronger version of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyBomb
From both a player and a DM perspective, I think Fast Healing even as high as 15 or 20 is pretty much just convenient out-of-combat healing that won't do much to increase a creature's chances of surviving a higher level encounter. And IME, PCs very rarely die from damage taken over the course of several rounds; they die from focused fire during a few enemy turns or from just a single offensive action taken by an unusually dangerous or lucky enemy. (And IIRC, even a mere CR 13 dragon, straight from the Paizo bestiaries, can have a full attack with an average damage output exceeding 130 and still retain an accuracy very near that of an "average" CR 13 monster. In effect, there's a relatively high probability the dragon could one-shot even a pretty durable 12th level PC.)
I also think the benefit of Fast Healing in general often seems far over-rated, with some people seemingly considering it almost equivalent to DR /- of the same value for some weird reason, and others seemingly believing out-of-combat healing is a highly limited resource in most parties and games. Strange and a bit annoying IMO, since these erroneous beliefs also appear to have pushed the cost of low value Fast Healing options unreasonably high and to fuel the cries of "OP" whenever an actually useful higher level in-combat Fast Healing option is suggested. :smallannoyed:
In my opinion, the real utility of having constantly active Fast Healing isn't the healing it gives you, but the fact that it negates bleed effects and saves resources, and lets you stay alive and get back up if your character's been reduced to negative HP. All told, it's basically a safety net versus some very specific conditions, making it comparable to Diehard, which is a feat nobody takes outside of some incredibly specific half-orc builds. It's more useful than diehard because you don't need to nearly die to make use of it, but the idea is the same.
If it was Regeneration, I could understand the extensive discussion; Regen basically negates the death condition unless your opponent meets certain circumstances. But Fast Healing? Nah.
In a discussion about Seize the Opportunity, the Vital Strike chain and size increases, it struck me that Magnitude Shift combined with other DSP content (Mighty Frame, gamla aasimar/skinwalker/tiefling) and Ascetic Style, temple swords with Effortless Lace plus the usual US damage die size boosters (Monk's Robe, strong jaw etc) might push AoO damage higher than ever before, possibly at a relatively early level. So I made a simple build outline to see if such a boosted "Ascetic Vital Opportunity Strike" is possible, whether it can reasonably consistently be made more than once per round, and how insane such an AoO's damage die size could be before higher levels.
If my interpretations of the current RAW are correct, it seems that such an AoO is (not surprisingly) possible and can be combined with other options to rather reliably be triggered one or more times per round before higher levels. But much more importantly, even before Greater VS comes into play at bab +15, this AoO's damage die size is simply the most stupidly insane overkill cheese I've ever seen on an AoO in PF: 192d6!
That is 672 average damage just from the temple sword's damage die when used in one single AoO, made up to 6 times per round and usually at least twice per round with a +29 attack bonus, at 13th level! :smalleek:
Or did I simply miss that this kind of damage is considered old news and is to be expected? If not, please help me find where I've made a major error which makes this nightmare go away, because I seriously don't want to this to be possible:
Spoiler: Seize the Vital Ascetic Magnitude Insanity, a. k. a. "Mr Svami" - 13th Level Example Build Outline
Gargantuan Ragebred Skinwalker Lore Warden Fighter 5, Master of Many Styles Monk 2, Formless Master (Fighter) 4, Ordained Dervish Defender Warder 2
CLASS AND FEAT PROGRESSION (retraining not shown)
1 Fighter 1 Beasthide ShiftB, Dirty Fighting
2 MoMS 1 Abomination ShiftB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Stunning FistB
3 MoMS 2 Ascetic StyleB, Mighty Frame
4 Fighter 2 Improved TripB, Magnitude ShiftB
5 Fighter 3 Seize the Opportunity
6 Fighter 4 Ascetic FormB
7 Fighter 5 Greater Trip
8 Formless 1 Sensory ShiftB
9 Formless 2Fighter 6 Ascetic Strike, Monastic LegacyB
10 Formless 3Fighter 7 Strongclaw ShiftB
11 Formless 4Fighter 8 Improved Vital StrikeB, Vital Strike
12 Warder 1 Combat ReflexesB, Two-Weapon FightingB
13 Warder 2 Vicious Stomp
Opalescent White Pyramid Weapon Focus (temple sword)B
ABILITY SCORES (20-point buy)
Str 23/38 16 base, 2 race, 3 level, 2 belt / 5 strongclaw, 4 unbounded ability, 6 size
Dex 14/10 12 base, 2 belt / -4 size
Con 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 belt
Int 7 7 base
Wis 20 16 base, 4 headband
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race
CMB, ATTACK & DAMAGE BONUS
Attack Bonus +27 12 bab, 14 str, 1 weapon training, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 gloves of dueling, 2 AoMF, 1 haste, -2 TWF, -4 size
Damage Bonus +21 14 str, 1 weapon training, 2 gloves of dueling, 2 AoMF, 2 broken blade
CMB +47 / with Sword +54 / Trip +58 12 bab, 14 str, 4 maneuver mastery, 1 weapon training, 2 gloves of dueling, 1 haste, 8 size, 5 abomination shift / 1 Weapon Focus, 2 AoMF, 4 dueling / 4 trip feats
DAMAGE DIE
64d6 Damage Die 1d3 medium -> 1d6 2nd level monk (applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 1d8 7th level monk (Monastic Legacy, applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 2d6 12th level monk (Monk's Robe, applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 6d6 temple sword (three damage die size increases due to the 1d8 medium base damage of temple sword instead of the 1d3 of unarmed strike)* -> 8d6 Large size (actual base size of race) -> 12d6 Mighty Frame (Huge weapon race may wield while Large size) -> 16d6 Effortless Lace (Gargantuan temple sword, wielded without penalties while Large) -> 32d6 Gargantuan size (Magnitude Shift - two "magic" actual size increases) -> 64d6 strong jaw (two "effective" damage die size increases, applies to temple sword due to Ascetic Style and a monk's unarmed strike being considered a natural weapon)
192d6 Vital Strike Damage Die 64d6 as above, x3 Improved Vital Strike
*The relevant wording of Ascetic Style ("...effects that augment an unarmed strike") is exactly the same as the pre-errata Feral Combat Training. And IIRC, according to the FAQ for the old FCT feat (now gone as the errata made the FAQ entry redundant), the monk's damage die size increase is an "effect that augments an unarmed strike", and therefore the monk unarmed strike damage die increase is counted from the natural attack's (size-appropriate) base damage die, not the monk's normal 1d3 (Medium) unarmed strike base damage die. Unless my memory fails and until there is an official ruling which says otherwise, I cannot see why Ascetic Style should be treated any differently, since the monk's damage die size increase remains an "effect that augments an unarmed strike".
So Mr Svami's full attack in Broken Blade Stance while affected by haste would be: temple swords +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 (64d6+21), one or more of the attacks replaced by trip attempts +56/+56/+56/+56/+56/+51/+46, each success triggering one or two AoOs up to a maximum of 6/round +29 (192d6+21); plus say four or five secondary natural attacks +22/+22/+22/+22/+22 (largely irrelevant damage but possibly even more trip attempts).
In the unlikely event my calculations and rules interpretations for Mr Svami actually happens to be correct, I'm probably not the first to notice this kind of combo, and would like to know your views on this. Especially on the fact that the far most important components enabling this insanity (Vital Strike, Seize the Opportunity and Magnitude Shift) are available at such early levels, with relatively minor drawbacks, and that this kind of damage output wouldn't be even remotely close to possible at this level using only Paizo options AFAIK.
Minor nitpick: the monk's damage increases are not die step increases, but an outright replacement. You would deal the damage listed on the table, regardless of if you're punching or using a temple sword, for a 16d6 base damage, rather than 64d6 (2d6 → 3d6 large base size → 4d6 Mighty Frame → 6d6/8d6 Magnitude Shift → 12d6/16d6 strong jaw). Still quite big but not as big.
As far as I can tell, effortless lace also does nothing for you here, because its effect only counts it as a light weapon for feats, spells, and weapon special abilities, and even then, only if you're sized right for it.