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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
RedMage125
Not all of them do. Evil people who are not devout enough to get into their deity's realm go to Baator or the Abyss, but a lot of the novels that examine this kind of thing seem to imply that evil faithful of an evil deity are not necessarily tortured, but are rather rewarded.
There's a certain amount of "Hell is other people" involved, here. Evil people are miserable in evil organizations when they're on the bottom of the ladder of power, because evil people in power abuse those below them to one degree or another. They, however, are happier as they gain power, because they can abuse those beneath them/enjoy the rewards of power as they climb, without those pesky moral limitations on how they use their hard-earned authority and might.
The ugly truth is that for every ruler, there are hundreds of suffering peons. But all the evil folks hope to be that ruler. And then the ruler of those rulers. And the ruler above THEM, etc. The torment and suffering is more because other evil folks enjoy committing it, and somebody has to be the target.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Max_Killjoy
Animism: getting a nature, elemental, or ancestor spirit to do it. Requires rites, chants, prayers, offerings, bargains, honoring taboos, etc.
"Black": drawing on spirits and forces inherently warping and corrosive to reality, using sigils, seals, and precise wording to avoid being consumed
"White": the power of the waking dream; go too far and get permanently lost in the flipside of lucid dreaming.
Does that seem like too much price, not enough price, just about right? The right sorts of prices?
I like your basic structure, but I'll head over to your link and read more.
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
I don't think having a price on magic is bad per se, it's just a bad fit for games, .
You lost me about there. Without a price magic is Harry Potter nonsense.
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Originally Posted by
icefractal
I think that a cosmic balance between Chaos and Order (as a desirable thing) can work, because it's easy to see how the extremes of both would be bad.
Moorcock and Anderson made it work.
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Originally Posted by
Bohandas
Also, if we go with sensible definitions of good and evil I could see how the side of evil could desire a balance between good and evil. If everything is ruined and destroyed than there will be nothing left to ruin and destroy
It is easier to tear down than to build. Struggle of law versus chaos is based on that core premise. (see also entropy, form the SF roots of significant amounts of speculative fiction ...)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Segev
Which is my whole point: stereotypes are cultural. They are only inherently racist if you assume that they MUST be tied to race.
Stereotypes are racist because the people who propagate them do so on the basis of race. The idea that people might like fried chicken isn't racist. The idea that all black people like fried chicken is racist. If you have a race (or subrace) that inherently likes fried chicken in your game, that necessarily reflects the racial stereotypes that exist in the real world.
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
You lost me about there. Without a price magic is Harry Potter nonsense.
You're going to have to explain what you mean by this.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
Stereotypes are racist because the people who propagate them do so on the basis of race. The idea that people might like fried chicken isn't racist. The idea that all black people like fried chicken is racist. If you have a race (or subrace) that inherently likes fried chicken in your game, that necessarily reflects the racial stereotypes that exist in the real world.
So, just to be clear, if I have a race of murderous rapist bandits who also absolutely adore the flavor of chocolate, I am creating a stereotype that people who like chocolate are murderous rapists. Is that accurate?
Yes, I get it, there's the stereotype about black people and fried chicken. (Oddly, I only learned it in my late 20s, and thought it a weird stereotype.) It's also a HARMLESS stereotype, and likely culturally related more than racially, but people foolishly conflate race and culture.
Yes, if you go out of your way to hit as many iconic stereotypes as possible, then attach negative things to the race as well, that's probably racist implication that "[race] people are like this." But I don't know about you, but the orc stereotypes don't tend to include "likes fried chicken" so much as "likes beating up the weak and stuff."
If I made a race whose culture included polygamy, abstinence from alcohol, and devout religion, am I stereotyping Mormons or Muslims? (Note: Mormons no longer practice polygamy, and haven't for approximately a century, but it's still part of stereotypical humor about us.) What if that race hails from an unassailable desert fortress rich in natural resources and conducts vicious raids on innocent human settlements?
As long as I avoid explicitly distinguishing characteristics (screaming "alahu Akbar" or wearing badges featuring beehives, for instance), those who find similarities can say, "Well, it's clearly not actually [blah], because they don't do that awful thing."
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Segev
So, just to be clear, if I have a race of murderous rapist bandits who also absolutely adore the flavor of chocolate, I am creating a stereotype that people who like chocolate are murderous rapists. Is that accurate?
No. If there is a stereotype that people who each chocolate murder babies, and you put a race of chocolate-eating baby murderers in your game, you are perpetuating that stereotype.
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Yes, I get it, there's the stereotype about black people and fried chicken. (Oddly, I only learned it in my late 20s, and thought it a weird stereotype.) It's also a HARMLESS stereotype, and likely culturally related more than racially, but people foolishly conflate race and culture.
Are you black? Because if you are, as I assume, not, you have zero authority on which to decide which stereotypes are or are not harmless.
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As long as I avoid explicitly distinguishing characteristics (screaming "alahu Akbar" or wearing badges featuring beehives, for instance), those who find similarities can say, "Well, it's clearly not actually [blah], because they don't do that awful thing."
Or, people who do in fact hate Muslims can point to your game as agreeing with their prejudices. Which, frankly, it is.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Conflating DnD race and real-life race is a bad call on several levels.
- Older editions use them as geni rather than just cosmetic differences, ie Neanderthals as a human subrace. Newer editions do something similar, as do 90% of games with different "races". It's become RPG jargon - separate definitions, like "cleave" to separate and "cleave" to hold together.
- Racial abilities are a combination of non-human physiology and cultural commonalities. Weapon/skill/tool proficiencies and languages are definitely the result of culture; all dwarves (and elves, and others) receive training in the weapons of their people on a matter of principle. Drow magic, a halfling's luck, and a gnome's magic resistance are innate, a product of "genetics" (or at least, whatever DnD has that passes for such). A high elf's cantrip could go either way, as could a half-orc's savage attacks.
- We're bad at writing aliens (essentially what dwarves and elves are, fantasy aliens) as anything but people with enforced stereotypes. You can write characters that ignore them however you want (Drizzt, anyone?), but more often than not, NPCs of a given race will have certain characteristics. The more common types have been inverted, subverted, converted and remodeled that there are many ways to go, but less frequently-occurring ones have fewer options by default.
Now, are there those who use this concept to promote agendas? Absolutely, just like some might use the idea of DnD classes to promote class warfare, but saying that the idea has to be used in a racist manner? That's an unfair assumption.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Segev
There's a certain amount of "Hell is other people" involved, here. Evil people are miserable in evil organizations when they're on the bottom of the ladder of power, because evil people in power abuse those below them to one degree or another. They, however, are happier as they gain power, because they can abuse those beneath them/enjoy the rewards of power as they climb, without those pesky moral limitations on how they use their hard-earned authority and might.
I always figured that's how it worked. Hell sucks because it's full of horrible people, and they torment you because they /can/ - as a newly arrived soul you're at the bottom of the heap. But gain enough power and you can be the one oppressing people from a throne of skulls. Whereas in heaven they never let you do that, not even as a Solar.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Segev
Weirdly, he seems to be the Chaos god who actually likes his followers.
Slannesh too, just in a different way. Nurgle is like a grandfather and Slannesh is like an old frat buddy who enables your drinking habit
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Bohandas
Slannesh too, just in a different way. Nurgle is like a grandfather and Slannesh is like an old frat buddy who enables your drinking habit
IMHO, they're stronger for it, because there are semi-sympathetic reasons for people to join Team Nurgle or Team Slannesh in a way that there aren't for Team Khorne or Team Tzeentch. People sign up with Nurgle because they value community. People sign up with Slannesh because it's a good time. People sign up with Khorne because they like killing, which is a motivation people can have, but not really one you can have while still being a reasonably sympathetic character. Tzeentch offers knowledge, which you could kind of get behind, except he doesn't offer any guarantee what he tells you is true, so it's hard to see what advantage being nominally "on his side" would offer you.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
IMHO, they're stronger for it, because there are semi-sympathetic reasons for people to join Team Nurgle or Team Slannesh in a way that there aren't for Team Khorne or Team Tzeentch. People sign up with Nurgle because they value community. People sign up with Slannesh because it's a good time. People sign up with Khorne because they like killing, which is a motivation people can have, but not really one you can have while still being a reasonably sympathetic character. Tzeentch offers knowledge, which you could kind of get behind, except he doesn't offer any guarantee what he tells you is true, so it's hard to see what advantage being nominally "on his side" would offer you.
See, that's just silly.
Everyone is on Tzeentch's side.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
Are you black? Because if you are, as I assume, not, you have zero authority on which to decide which stereotypes are or are not harmless.
If you have the wrong skin colour, you cannot hold a valid opinion about stereotypes? That sounds racist.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Mr Beer
If you have the wrong skin colour, you cannot hold a valid opinion about stereotypes? That sounds racist.
It's a question of Experience.
I'd trust a construction worker to tell me how necessary hard hats and other pieces of safety equipment are on a construction site.
I'd trust a Pilot to tell me if it's safe to fly a plane in certain weather conditions.
I'd trust a Lawyer to tell me which arguments will, or will not play well in court.
If an experienced Chef told me that doing XY and Z would ruin the food, I would listen to them.
And yes, I would trust a black person to know whether or not a stereotype is harmful, for exactly the same reason.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
BRC
It's a question of Experience.
I'd trust a construction worker to tell me how necessary hard hats and other pieces of safety equipment are on a construction site.
I'd trust a Pilot to tell me if it's safe to fly a plane in certain weather conditions.
I'd trust a Lawyer to tell me which arguments will, or will not play well in court.
If an experienced Chef told me that doing XY and Z would ruin the food, I would listen to them.
And yes, I would trust a black person to know whether or not a stereotype is harmful, for exactly the same reason.
I take no issue with the notion that a black person may know whether or not a stereotype is harmful. I do take issue with the notion that someone who is not black has zero ability to determine whether or not a stereotype is harmful.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Aneurin
The Deity Of Death Is Evil
I am thinking of Death of Discworld. Dedicated to a thankless job.
I'm writing a setting where the gods of death is held in high regard because the "undead" (not called that here, but those who have not died properly) are kind of an issue and it takes a lot of work or the intervention of a god of death to fix the problem. You don't know what you got until it is gone and all that.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Mr Beer
I take no issue with the notion that a black person may know whether or not a stereotype is harmful. I do take issue with the notion that someone who is not black has zero ability to determine whether or not a stereotype is harmful.
If you have never been subject to a stereotype, you cannot tell someone that their feelings on being subject to that stereotype are wrong. It is like telling a crime victim how they should feel when you've never been victim to the crime in question.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
raygun goth
If you have never been subject to a stereotype, you cannot tell someone that their feelings on being subject to that stereotype are wrong. It is like telling a crime victim how they should feel when you've never been victim to the crime in question.
If we're saying as a specific example that, as a white person, I shouldn't tell black people whether or not they should be offended by people cracking jokes about fried chicken...I agree. If we're saying that you don't get to have opinions about stereotyping unless you're black...I don't agree.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
BRC
It's a question of Experience.
I'd trust a construction worker to tell me how necessary hard hats and other pieces of safety equipment are on a construction site.
I'd trust a Pilot to tell me if it's safe to fly a plane in certain weather conditions.
I'd trust a Lawyer to tell me which arguments will, or will not play well in court.
If an experienced Chef told me that doing XY and Z would ruin the food, I would listen to them.
And yes, I would trust a black person to know whether or not a stereotype is harmful, for exactly the same reason.
As a total sidenote, most construction workers will tell you that hard hats are completely unneeded in most construction sites. Steel toe boots on the other hand, always a good thing.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Point of order, doesn't everyone like fried chicken? I mean, I know some people are opposed to it on moral grou ds or don't eat it because they're watching their weight, but doesn't everyone like the taste?
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
lightningcat
As a total sidenote, most construction workers will tell you that hard hats are completely unneeded in most construction sites. Steel toe boots on the other hand, always a good thing.
Not any of my coworkers. The only time you don't see a hardhat is if you're squeezing into rebar.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Bohandas
Point of order, doesn't everyone like fried chicken? I mean, I know some people are opposed to it on moral grou ds or don't eat it because they're watching their weight, but doesn't everyone like the taste?
Well, I really don't like the taste, which is one of the reasons why I don't eat it. But I generally don't like fastfood like that. I really prefer the taste of lots of different vegetables.
But for a cliché that I hate, the seeming law against wearing normal clothes that are vaguely practical in many fantasy settings.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
JBPuffin
Older editions use them as geni rather than just cosmetic differences,
Fair points all around, but the plural of "genus" is "genera." It's a neuter 3rd-declension noun (genus, generis), not a masculine 2nd-declension one (genus, geni). That's why we have "generic" instead of "genic." Common mistake, though. Latin endings can be misleading like that. The 4th or 5th declension (I forget which one) also bears the -us form in the nominative singular.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Raunchel
But for a cliché that I hate, the seeming law against wearing normal clothes that are vaguely practical in many fantasy settings.
Ugh, you've made me remember the Sorcerer from 3.5 with the belt thing. :smallyuk:
Going to second this, the amount of stupid clothing on adventurer's specifically is quite annoying, especially an excess of bags, belts, pointless straps and buckles, and to a lesser extent lightweight robes and dresses in the middle of the wilderness. Those all get snagged on things, rip or fall off.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Bohandas
Point of order, doesn't everyone like fried chicken? I mean, I know some people are opposed to it on moral grou ds or don't eat it because they're watching their weight, but doesn't everyone like the taste?
I don't like meat on the bone, or skin left on... too much fat and gristle and stuff to dodge.
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Originally Posted by
Raunchel
But for a cliché that I hate, the seeming law against wearing normal clothes that are vaguely practical in many fantasy settings.
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Originally Posted by
Grim Portent
Ugh, you've made me remember the Sorcerer from 3.5 with the belt thing. :smallyuk:
Going to second this, the amount of stupid clothing on adventurer's specifically is quite annoying, especially an excess of bags, belts, pointless straps and buckles, and to a lesser extent lightweight robes and dresses in the middle of the wilderness. Those all get snagged on things, rip or fall off.
Thirded.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Grim Portent
Ugh, you've made me remember the Sorcerer from 3.5 with the belt thing. :smallyuk:
Going to second this, the amount of stupid clothing on adventurer's specifically is quite annoying, especially an excess of bags, belts, pointless straps and buckles, and to a lesser extent lightweight robes and dresses in the middle of the wilderness. Those all get snagged on things, rip or fall off.
sometimes i wonder whose fault it is. i mean, when i'm going into the forest, i've got 2 belts and one utility belt, a musette bag and a backpack. one belt is for my pants, the other is for my knife and medikit. it's not as absurd as the "clothed in belts" trope that is often seen in anime. i think i'll blame the fan artists who've got no concept of ergonomics whatsoever. please note that my standard hiking kit weighs in at 9kg without food, and all of the weight is distributed across my entire body. it's not how most people do it, but i know my own preferences regarding comfort and accessibility, so i'll gladly add another kilo or 3 of gear if it means i'm better off long-term.
in the forest, one learns how to walk wearing a cloak, but if delving out of the beaten path, one hikes up the cloak to leave their legs free. at least, that's how i was taught to wear cloaks in the wilderness. unless it's friggin' cold, my cloak is rolled up in my backpack anyway. it's not a fashion statement, it's a dual-purpose garment and foul-weather shield. something that any unexperienced urbanite will think only looks cool.
here's one thing i've rarely seen in purely fantasy gaming groups: pocketed clothing, or a spare change of duds in general. i usually draw my characters with at least a pocketed belt and a backpack. deep pockets in the pants or shirt pockets are usually described. there's some sort of idiocy that goes on to "feel authentic", but the truth of the matter is that pockets exist for a reason, namely accessibility to gear. an adventurer that spends 45 seconds in combat looking for just the right potion is a dead man. better have a haversack with only 3 potions cinched to the waist or the small of the back.
it's not "fantasy", but in my post-apocalyptic universe, the standard adventurer loadout is the iso-standard adventuring backpack, some heavy work gloves, steel capped boots, and padded mechanic's coveralls. after talking it out with a lot of people, cargo clothing that can be taken off and on quickly should be the most obvious choice if one were thinking "practical" rather than "cliché'd to hell and back". most adventurers spend their time underground or in ruins. they should at the very least be wearing shinguards for all the time they spend crawling. and climbing harnesses, too, but then we get into the old canard of "it breaks immersion!!!11one!!"
tl;dr: fourthed so hard it's not funny. of the practical variety.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
Are you black? Because if you are, as I assume, not, you have zero authority on which to decide which stereotypes are or are not harmless.
I reject this racist assertion. I have plenty of authority to decide what is harmless and what is not, if only because abdicating that authority means that a black person could, in theory, decide that me expecting black people to not rob and beat me is an unfair stereotype and I have no authority to apply my "racist" idea that I have a right to life and property.
Yes, that's an extreme example, but you don't get to make absolute claims and then say "but not that extreme example."
I will grant that those who endure a hardship have a greater perspective on it than those who do not, however. But since you can find black people on both sides of many of these stereotype issues ("how offensive!" vs "Haha so true"), it's hardly cut-and-dried. Ultimately, intent and audience sensitivity - and not based even primarily on color - is important.
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
Or, people who do in fact hate Muslims can point to your game as agreeing with their prejudices. Which, frankly, it is.
Ah, but I started writing that as a representation of some of what I've seen written about Mormons. So do Muslims have a right to be offended that it libels them, when the group in question is written to be a libel of Mormons?
If I write about an inhumanly evil subrace of elves who are out to purify the world of those who do not share their ideology and fit their ideal image of perfection, and have a rigorous, jingoistic belief in the perfection of their national identity as embodied in their charismatic leader, am I writing an offensive libel of Muslims or a faithful "whack the Nazi" rendition of Nazis?
The thing is, you can probably read either into it. Especially if you try hard to find reason to be offended and "discover" "coded language" that "secretly" refers to particular groups.
The best way to handle it is to take it at face value, and assume there's no connection to real world groups unless that connection is called out on purpose. It's just not worth the headache.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Segev
I reject this racist assertion. I have plenty of authority to decide what is harmless and what is not, if only because abdicating that authority means that a black person could, in theory, decide that me expecting black people to not rob and beat me is an unfair stereotype and I have no authority to apply my "racist" idea that I have a right to life and property.
Yes, your expectation that black people are thugs is in no way racist. Wait, no, that's the exact opposite of true. You would think you could come up with a better reason your position isn't racist than a desire to believe explicitly racist things. At least, you could if you were in fact arguing from a non-racist position rather than a closeted racist one.
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Ah, but I started writing that as a representation of some of what I've seen written about Mormons. So do Muslims have a right to be offended that it libels them, when the group in question is written to be a libel of Mormons?
If you wanted it not to be understood as something, you should have made it clearer that it wasn't that thing. You do not have the authority to decide how people should understand things you say. You only have the authority to decide to say clearer things.
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If I write about an inhumanly evil subrace of elves who are out to purify the world of those who do not share their ideology and fit their ideal image of perfection, and have a rigorous, jingoistic belief in the perfection of their national identity as embodied in their charismatic leader, am I writing an offensive libel of Muslims or a faithful "whack the Nazi" rendition of Nazis?
The fact that you think this is close (combined with the "I just want to call black people thugs!" example above) is making it increasingly clear that your concern trolling is exactly that, and your actual beliefs are horrible racism.
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The thing is, you can probably read either into it. Especially if you try hard to find reason to be offended and "discover" "coded language" that "secretly" refers to particular groups.
Yes, it is so hard to see why making the evil subrace of elves the dark skinned subrace of elves might offend black people. That is some incredibly subtle coded language that no one could possibly decipher.
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The best way to handle it is to take it at face value, and assume there's no connection to real world groups unless that connection is called out on purpose. It's just not worth the headache.
Yes, it is better to be able to ignore the implications of things. But not everyone is in the position to do that, so insisting that we pretend that they are is problematic. You can't just assume away the actual harms that are actually inflicted on actual people by saying "well we should all realize its fiction and treat it that way". That's not how it works, and the idea that it works that way is laughably naive.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Cosi
Yes, your expectation that black people are thugs is in no way racist. Wait, no, that's the exact opposite of true. You would think you could come up with a better reason your position isn't racist than a desire to believe explicitly racist things. At least, you could if you were in fact arguing from a non-racist position rather than a closeted racist one.
You misread his (extremely poorly worded; I had to read it a couple of times myself to figure it out) comment. He's, I think, saying that under the system proposed expecting a race to be mostly thugs or expecting them NOT to be mostly thugs would both be equally presumptuous and that you couldn't validly have EITHER expectation without beig that race
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Apparently, saying you expect people NOT to beat and rob you is calling them thugs...
And dark-skinned evil races are obviously racism... After all, Light and Darkness are never used as allegories to anything in western culture. Nope. The only reason any author creates evil dark-skinned races is because of racism against black people.
Seems legit.
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Lemmy
Apparently, saying you expect people NOT to beat and rob you is calling them thugs...
And dark-skinned evil races are obviously racism... After all, Light and Darkness are never used as allegories to anything in western culture. Nope. The only reason any author creates evil dark-skinned races is because of racism against black people.
Seems legit.
On the other hand, if people have been using that allegory for thousands of years and applying it everywhere, whats to stop them from applying it to skin color and thus create racism through that in the first place? The moment any form of good thinks its inherently superior just because, is the moment it stops being good. racism isn't just about hate against the out group, its about thinking the in group is superior. its all about tearing down one group to make another group feel better about itself. So explain to me why a bunch of idiots wouldn't use that very allegory to justify their racism if they could do so?
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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Originally Posted by
Bohandas
You misread his (extremely poorly worded; I had to read it a couple of times myself to figure it out) comment. He's, I think, saying that under the system proposed expecting a race to be mostly thugs or expecting them NOT to be mostly thugs would both be equally presumptuous and that you couldn't validly have EITHER expectation without beig that race
The idea that your assumption that people will not rob you should be based on race is racist. He apparently forgot that he's supposed to be on the side of "color blindness". Your assumption that people will not rob you should be based on the fact that people should not rob you. Adding a racial component to that is racist.
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Originally Posted by
Lemmy
And dark-skinned evil races are obviously racism... After all, Light and Darkness are never used as allegories to anything in western culture. Nope. The only reason any author creates evil dark-skinned races is because of racism against black people.
Seems legit.
Yes, because things can only ever have one reason, and no one could ever have different personal experiences, social circles, or cultural context that would cause them to understand things differently from you. Also, authors meanings are objective and totally divorced from the context in which they are read.