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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Because I'm wanting the Batman Wizard to mis-prepare. Maybe I'm just getting too elegant, but I'm trying to ram Batman Wizard's tactics right up where the sun don't shine. Also, if you give him an encounter he can plainly see... he likely won't look for others. So he sees a 'puppet show', for which he prepares. Then, when he ports in, he finds his spell list is mostly the wrong one to face the challenge he's looking at, with no way to go back and change it.
The problem is that the 'core' components of the Batman's repertoire are general-purpose spells. No matter how good your puppet show is, it's not going to convince him to pass over those. Disintegrate, say, is almost always useful. How are you going to concoct a situation to negate the basics like...
* Disintegrate?
* Battlefield alteration?
* Teleportation magics?
* Buffs?
Likewise, no matter how obvious it is that they're facing one particular threat, any Batman wizard who is not stupid (and, hey, ~32 int) is going to prepare multiple spells targeting every save. This is just because, in your typical encounter, you generally won't have the chance to cast every single spell -- devoting some to alternative dangers is therefore always worthwhile. No matter how many dumb, low-will-save high-con-save brutes you show him in your puppet show, he's still going to prepare at least a few spells like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. No matter how many undead he sees in your puppet show, he's still likely to have at least a few spells like Enervation. Etc.
The whole point of being Batman is that you're prepared for everything. Divinations help, but trying to trick them into not preparing the basic spells + a few save-or-die/sucks against every save is a lost cause. That's what makes them Batman in the first place.
Also note that this trick may work... once. After that, all future divinations will be taken as strictly advisory; your Batman will prepare against them a bit, but will always be sure to have their general-purpose spells ready, too.
And in the end, Batman wizards just aren't as dependent on divinations as you seem to think. They could throw up their hands, say "Fine, no more using divinations to choose my spells," and they'd still be more powerful than almost any non-fullcaster.
I'm not disputing that this build could cause more problems for him than usual, but that's because it's a full caster who abuses diplomacy, not because of any of the other fancy tricks. Seriously, imagine trying to take on this guy without a full caster of your own -- assuming he goes all out. Good luck with that.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Bardic Joker
Very clever! I love this.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
You guys are overlooking one of the major points of him being a Bard with crazy spellcasting... Bardic Knowledge. Any character over 13 is considered a legendary character and therefore subject to Bardic Knowledge, so the Joker can learn about things in the Batmans life without needing to divine anything.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
TempusCCK
You guys are overlooking one of the major points of him being a Bard with crazy spellcasting... Bardic Knowledge. Any character over 13 is considered a legendary character and therefore subject to Bardic Knowledge, so the Joker can learn about things in the Batmans life without needing to divine anything.
That would probably be how the bard finds someone or something that the character values.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
...bardic joker idea...
Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).
In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.
- Giacomo
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Aquillion
The problem is that the 'core' components of the Batman's repertoire are general-purpose spells. No matter how good your puppet show is, it's not going to convince him to pass over those. Disintegrate, say, is almost always useful. How are you going to concoct a situation to negate the basics like...
* Disintegrate?
* Battlefield alteration?
* Teleportation magics?
* Buffs?
Buffs? Easy. Greater Dispel Magic. Teleportation magics? Dimension Lock. Battlefield Alteration? Greater Dispel Magic. Disintegrate? Well, you got to let Batman Wizard do SOMETHING. Besides, if all he's found himself able to do is disintegrate things, then you've scaled his power down to something that the rest of the players haven't been overshadowed by.
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Likewise, no matter how obvious it is that they're facing one particular threat, any Batman wizard who is not stupid (and, hey, ~32 int) is going to prepare multiple spells targeting every save. This is just because, in your typical encounter, you generally won't have the chance to cast every single spell -- devoting some to alternative dangers is therefore always worthwhile. No matter how many dumb, low-will-save high-con-save brutes you show him in your puppet show, he's still going to prepare at least a few spells like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. No matter how many undead he sees in your puppet show, he's still likely to have at least a few spells like Enervation. Etc.
The whole point of being Batman is that you're prepared for everything. Divinations help, but trying to trick them into not preparing the basic spells + a few save-or-die/sucks against every save is a lost cause. That's what makes them Batman in the first place.
Also note that this trick may work... once. After that, all future divinations will be taken as strictly advisory; your Batman will prepare against them a bit, but will always be sure to have their general-purpose spells ready, too.
And in the end, Batman wizards just aren't as dependent on divinations as you seem to think. They could throw up their hands, say "Fine, no more using divinations to choose my spells," and they'd still be more powerful than almost any non-fullcaster.
Then I've done my job. The Batman Wizard is no longer completely overshadowing the rest of the group. Powerful, yes. But not so "I win on the first round, and the rest of the party can make coffee" powerful.
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I'm not disputing that this build could cause more problems for him than usual, but that's because it's a full caster who abuses diplomacy, not because of any of the other fancy tricks. Seriously, imagine trying to take on this guy without a full caster of your own -- assuming he goes all out. Good luck with that.
Actually, non-full casters won't have too many problems with him either... assuming they can ever find the Joker. The problem is that he keeps them too wrapped up running around chasing shadows and mirrors.
Ultimately, what I'm trying to do is make Batman Wizard take his four daily encounters and make him start blowing a lot more spells than he's used to.
Most of the time, Batman Wizard can prepare exactly the right spell for exactly the right situation, and whenever he gets hurting, can cast MMM and recover spells, regardless of how many foes may be outside.
Joker Bard is the counter to that. He keeps the time pressure on Batman, keeps the carrot dangling just a little bit out of reach. They'll beat every trap Joker can throw at them, of course. That's the point. Remember, this is the BBEG, the DM's 'hero' unit. He's supposed to loose. He's just supposed to level the playing field a bit and let the rest of the party be more useful than a typical Unseen Servant spell.
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Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).
In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.
Thank you, but I think you may have missed the other reference. Remember TLN's "Wizard's guide to being Batman"? That is what this is designed to challenge.
Always remember, encounters run at the power of Plot. Just because this build can curb stomp any non-batman-esque build, doesn't mean he HAS to. If the party doesn't have a Batman Wizard, then the Joker Bard gets scaled back, some of the tactics are not used, and he still provides a viable challenge.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Sir Giacomo
Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).
In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.
- Giacomo
There is actually a class called Vigilante which even spoofs Batman's picture for the artwork. I think it's in Complete Adventurer or some such.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Thank you, but I think you may have missed the other reference. Remember TLN's "Wizard's guide to being Batman"? That is what this is designed to challenge.
In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.
- Giacomo
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I think he needs evasion an mettle, to represent the jokers ability to slip out of everything virtualy unscathed.
Maybe a 3 level dip into hexblade and a ring of evasion?
Not to mention the hex blades got that charisma mod to save vs utility bel... i mean spells.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Sir Giacomo
In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.
- Giacomo
Except that as a Wizard, his high save is Will, so it'll actually most likely be higher than his Reflex or Fortitude, despite attribute bonuses.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Epic_Wizard
There is actually a class called Vigilante which even spoofs Batman's picture for the artwork. I think it's in Complete Adventurer or some such.
There is. But it's not too fitting. I think it is too weak and bland.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sir Giacomo
In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.
- Giacomo
Yes, but the Joker Bard isn't going anywhere near the party, ideally. Not until the end of the campaign, at least. Besides, Joker Bard in combat isn't going to target the Batman Wizard. He's going to target the Ubercharger, Dominate him, and make HIM attack the Batman Wizard, which ties up TWO party members, not just one. Maybe even the Rogue instead, who also has a poor Will save. If the Wizard isn't aware of the attack, it's a sneak attack, and he's not expecting his buddy to attack him, is he?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Yes, but the Joker Bard isn't going anywhere near the party, ideally. Not until the end of the campaign, at least. Besides, Joker Bard in combat isn't going to target the Batman Wizard. He's going to target the Ubercharger, Dominate him, and make HIM attack the Batman Wizard, which ties up TWO party members, not just one. Maybe even the Rogue instead, who also has a poor Will save. If the Wizard isn't aware of the attack, it's a sneak attack, and he's not expecting his buddy to attack him, is he?
Yep, you're correct. And another weak area of a WIS "dump stat" - a wizard does not have sense motive as class ability, either. Yes, that could work both technically and make a dramatic challenge for a group!
I wonder...could the joker charm a wizard's familiar without the wizard noticing it? Probably not...but it would be fun...:smallwink:
- Giacomo
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
FeverFox
I think he needs evasion an mettle, to represent the jokers ability to slip out of everything virtualy unscathed.
Maybe a 3 level dip into hexblade and a ring of evasion?
Not to mention the hex blades got that charisma mod to save vs utility bel... i mean spells.
Were I making him a combat-effective character, that would be a good move. Along with Warshaper from CompWar to give him a host of immunities, extra reach, and some other goodies.
However, he's not designed to be optimized from a combat perspective. He'll do everything he can to keep from being located and attacked. He works through pawns, minions, and cat's-paws.
For brute combat, he can just Diplomance a tribe of giants into attacking something. Mere physical combat is beneath him. Corruption of morals, twisting of ethics, and making the PC who is possibly the most powerful mortal in existance dance to his tune... that's what he gets his kicks from.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Question is, if you're using this, should you try to create a city as a simulacrum of Gotham City?
Because, assuming we've reached the stage where the Batman-wizard actually cares about what's going on, a proper urban environment (with constraints that the wizard will actually stick to against blasting everything or casting save-or-sucks on huge crowds of commoners to get the two or three thugs) actually make things even more interesting...
Also, I assume that Joker Bard would normally have a diplomanced Artificer on hand to provide some of the counter-gadegtry the joker traditionally has...
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
This is really neat I must say, and definitely keeps the flavor of the Joker while having a lot of tools at his disposal to stalemate the Batman-wizard and still throw as many mooks at the other PCs as needed to keep them occupied while the death-trap gambit works its way to completion. That's the point of such a villain of course, not to kill or otherwise defeat the heroes in combat but destroy what they hold dear, to keep doing that until the heroes go mad and/or the people they protect turn against them.
But, and this is an honest question because my 3.5ed knowledge isn't what it used to be, what's to keep the party from dropping as many Silence spells as they can all over the place once they know they're up against a social combat master? I know there are ways to get around Silenced areas for spellcasting, and he could always try to dispel it (not a guarantee to always work) but until it is dispelled he wouldn't be able to use Bluff or Diplomacy on anyone, and when he does dispel it that is a pretty clear indicator that he's nearby. And if the PCs are that worried about him Bluffing them into oblivion, they could just deafen themselves and use Telepathic Bond until he's dealt with then get cured by the friendly neighborhood cleric.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Silence only lasts what, 10 min/level, and only has a 10 or 20 ft. radius? It's also fairly disruptive for ordinary social interaction, not just Joker Diplomancy, so having their Silences dispelled might be the work of legitimate authority who could be getting upset with the PCs.
And of course, that is All According To Plan.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
The_Glyphstone
Silence only lasts what, 10 min/level, and only has a 10 or 20 ft. radius? It's also fairly disruptive for ordinary social interaction, not just Joker Diplomancy, so having their Silences dispelled might be the work of legitimate authority who could be getting upset with the PCs.
And of course, that is All According To Plan.
Those are good points, especially that last one. But what about Deafness+Telepathic Bond for the PCs' own protection?
Heck, since TB is also 10 min/level like Silence, I'd just cast that on everyone instead of Deafness for the same effect but without the permanent-until-cured part.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
That works better, though it becomes a big hassle when/if they're dealing with anyone outside the party. Quest NPCs, merchants, etc.
TB can be Permancied, I believe, so the duration isn't an issue there.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
TB is okay for party communication, however it doesn't provide any protection vs mind affecting, it just lets them communicate.
Unless you're trying to talking about trying to link an entire NATION with TB...
1) it's a 5th level spell. How many 9+ level Wizards are there around?
2) 1 target per 3 caster levels. That's not a whole lot of people.
3)
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Telepathic bond can be made permanent with a permanency spell, though it only bonds two creatures per casting of permanency.
So Population/2*2,500 xp cost. Not even remotely feasable.
4) Do you really want to be in everyone's head?
5) Congratulations, Big Brother himself would be bowing at your feet. You have instigated a totalitarian regime and required manditory mental monitoring. You can hear the Joker's maniacal laughter echoing through the thought-stream. His work here is done, time to find another playground.
And no, I don't want to make a Gotham City. The only reason why I called this the Joker Bard is because a) he uses similar tactics, and b) he's the counter to Batman Wizard which became so popular after TLN's guide.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I feel compelled to post these.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
TB is okay for party communication, however it doesn't provide any protection vs mind affecting, it just lets them communicate.
Unless you're trying to talking about trying to link an entire NATION with TB...
1) it's a 5th level spell. How many 9+ level Wizards are there around?
2) 1 target per 3 caster levels. That's not a whole lot of people.
3) So Population/2*2,500 xp cost. Not even remotely feasable.
4) Do you really want to be in everyone's head?
5) Congratulations, Big Brother himself would be bowing at your feet. You have instigated a totalitarian regime and required manditory mental monitoring. You can hear the Joker's maniacal laughter echoing through the thought-stream. His work here is done, time to find another playground.
Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:
The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Scylfing
Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:
The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.
Dominate Person doesn't require anything sound-based, and that's Mr. J's most likely first tactic on anything that looks like it can cause massive amounts of physical damage but doesn't look too bright.
That's, of course, assuming that they ever get to meet Joker face to face. Considering his hit-and-run tactics, that's not too likely until the end of the campaign.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Vexxation
Except that as a Wizard, his high save is Will, so it'll actually most likely be higher than his Reflex or Fortitude, despite attribute bonuses.
We did a 20th level quick campaign (which may wind up going long and into epic levels) with my DM, my gf, one of our other players, and his gf. I played a Wizard and since my DM said he didn't want me to play an Evocation specialist (my usual Wizard build) I went with a Halfling Transmuter. Plus I got a Robe of the Archmagi and took Lightning Reflexes as a feat. I was flying above the battle with Druid mounted on a Dire Elephant and the DM tells me that he's sorry but he can't have me flying around up there being all annoying and drops a Sunburst on me. The look oh his face when I tell him my base Reflex Save is 23 was priceless :smallbiggrin:
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Originally Posted by
Scylfing
Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:
The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.
Diplomacy checks and the like don't work on the PC's so that's a moot issue. If the PC's are bringing along NPC friends then that's a whole nother matter but in that case permanent TB isn't necessary, just for the duration of the encounter.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Epic_Wizard
We did a 20th level quick campaign (which may wind up going long and into epic levels) with my DM, my gf, one of our other players, and his gf. I played a Wizard and since my DM said he didn't want me to play an Evocation specialist (my usual Wizard build) I went with a Halfling Transmuter. Plus I got a Robe of the Archmagi and took Lightning Reflexes as a feat. I was flying above the battle with Druid mounted on a Dire Elephant and the DM tells me that he's sorry but he can't have me flying around up there being all annoying and drops a Sunburst on me. The look oh his face when I tell him my base Reflex Save is 23 was priceless :smallbiggrin:
You must have an interesting group. I'd have simply hit whichever one of the three things up there was doing the actual flying with a targeted Greater Dispel Magic and brought you all back down. Or just thrown a couple of Huge Air Elementals at you to play with up there...
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I like the idea, but I have echo one question from the second page: Why not Beguiler?
It seems that the benefits of Bard over Beguiler are improved BAB, Bardic Music buffs and Suggestion. Neither Base Attack or the buffs is going to matter and Suggestion can be replaced by a spell.
The Beguiler has more skill points, has a more spontaneous form of casting and has more spell uses per day.
If you want to match the Beguiler's casting with Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge, you only fall further behind in skills. If you want to multiclass to match it in skills (I can't think of an 8+Int full casting PrC), you fall even further behind in casting.
The character's abilities would generally remain the same, but Beguiler advances to bigger and better powers more quickly.
...Just a thought.
That said, I'm probably going to contradict myself by going the opposite direction and use your idea, substituting Lurk for Bard.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Temp.
I like the idea, but I have echo one question from the second page: Why not Beguiler?
It seems that the benefits of Bard over Beguiler are improved BAB, Bardic Music buffs and Suggestion. Neither Base Attack or the buffs is going to matter and Suggestion can be replaced by a spell.
The Beguiler has more skill points, has a more spontaneous form of casting and has more spell uses per day.
If you want to match the Beguiler's casting with Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge, you only fall further behind in skills. If you want to multiclass to match it in skills (I can't think of an 8+Int full casting PrC), you fall even further behind in casting.
The character's abilities would generally remain the same, but Beguiler advances to bigger and better powers more quickly.
...Just a thought.
That said, I'm probably going to contradict myself by going the opposite direction and use your idea, substituting Lurk for Bard.
First off, because the Joker Bard does 99% of his stuff without magic. And Second, because of Glibness. It's Bard only, not Sorc/Wiz, so Beguilers can't get it. Being able to lie and get away with it, even under Compel Truth and Zone of Truth is absolutely critical for this build.
Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard?
You also get Bardic Knowledge, which the Joker Bard uses to keep tabs on what the Party is doing, which the Beguiler has no way to duplicate.
Again, this is a guy who can, with 10 minutes of RP and not a single spell, can change a man's morale compass so completely that he goes from Harvey Dent to Two Face. Can your beguiler even begin to match that?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
First off, because the Joker Bard does 99% of his stuff without magic. And Second, because of Glibness. It's Bard only, not Sorc/Wiz, so Beguilers can't get it. Being able to lie and get away with it, even under Compel Truth and Zone of Truth is absolutely critical for this build.
Good thing the Beguiler gets Glibness a level before the Bard? And can cast it more often?
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Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard?
Intelligence-based casting will usually mean more Intelligence and more skills. It's more of a PC thing, but it might matter.
I don't put much stock in Bardic Knowledge. A good social network should cover this for the Joker's purposes.
[edit:]
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Again, this is a guy who can, with 10 minutes of RP and not a single spell, can change a man's morale compass so completely that he goes from Harvey Dent to Two Face. Can your beguiler even begin to match that?
Err... what? The only thing Bards have along these lines that Beguilers don't is Suggestion. And that's just a spell with a different label.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard?
6+Bard's int mod as compared to 6+beguiler's int mod.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
You know, the Joker could easily set a fatal trap for the Batman, put the player in his place for sure, so next time he'll realize "huh, if I powergame, the DM kills me, and he kills me fair..."