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Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]
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So, by my opinion, the Paladin is easily one of the worst designed classes in D&D. The soulknife and samurai are both admittedly worse, but the paladin is the most... extreme example. Why? The mechanic of the fall.
Now, honestly, I like the fall. You could just do away with it, remove the alignment requirement and such, and then make the paladin simply a spiritual warrior, but I like it as is. I like the idea of a holy warrior who won't kill an innocent in order to save a whole town, in one of those contrived circumstances people on this forum tend to think up. It's not that the paladin doesn't realize that it would be better to save a town at the expense of the innocent, or doesn't care: it's that the paladin's unwavering faith, the thing that gives him power, tells him that there's another way, and forces him to find it.
So, I'm okay with the fall... but the point of the paladin is that he gains his powers from the fall, from his unwavering faith. In other words: he's powerful.
And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.
So, let's succeed where WotC failed. I've seen a lot of paladin fixes, but most of them bring it up to mid-high tier 4: I'm shooting for something that'll be competitive with a CoDzilla.
...Wish me luck.:smalleek:
The Real Paladin
Alignment: A paladin must be lawful good. No exceptions.
In addition, the paladin has a code of conduct.
The Paladin must always act with honor, respect legitimate and just authority (so long as said authority does not command him to commit an evil act), help those in need, never under any circumstances harm an innocent or commit an evil act, and work to uphold the law at all times unless said law would go against the other tenets of the code. A paladin can't kill a baby to save a village. Unless it is justified under the law, killing someone just because they are evil is considered an evil act, and will cause the paladin to fall- all evil creatures deserve redemption. The paladin must have just reason to believe the evil creature in question is going to do him or an innocent harm to harm the evil creatures.
A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts.
A paladin may only kill a neutral creature if they are in the process of attacking the paladin, his allies, or an innocent, or doing something that would help bring about the harm of the paladin, his allies, or an innocent.
The paladin may, under no circumstances, kill a good creature.
Nonsentient creatures do not extend to this clause, though the paladin may not kill a nonsentient creature if it would be illegal to do so.
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serenity
The very existence of paladins and a demonstrable cosmic Power of Good presupposes that Good is always possible. It is not possible that there is no better option than killing [a] child. That is the entirety of what it means to be a paladin, or indeed, for Paladins to exist. It means that evil is not necessary, however much the tyrant may delude himself. It means that there is always a Better Way.
It's like asking who would win in a fight between Jesus and Cthulhu--it's a meaningless question, because the existence of one in the universe would, almost by definition, preclude the existence of the other.If the world has paladins, then there is a third option that saves the child and the village. If there is no third option, then there can be no paladins, and it is meaningless to discuss 'falls'.
This is not meant to say that the paladin should always be able to save everyone. Sometimes, circumstances will make that impossible. But he should always try to save everybody, and he should never be required to take an evil action to advance the cause of Good. In a world where paladins are possible, 'necessary Evil' is a lie tempters tell to corrupt the righteous, and the corrupt tell themselves to hide from their own guilt.
So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall. This doesn't mean the third option is practical, or even possible, but the paladin should always at least try.
This code may be altered in minor ways, subject to DM approval. In general, however, it must remain strongly lawful good, and be founded in ideals as opposed to practicality.
Abilities: Strength and constitution are important, as they are for any melee class. Wisdom now takes a backseat to charisma- in fact, wisdom has no place for the paladin, aside from skills & will saves.
HD: d12
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Holy Smite, Just Templar | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Turn Undead, Unwavering Devotion | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Divine Grace | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Swift Crusader 1/day, Special Ability | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Justiciar 1/day, Holy Strike | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Turn Demon | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Swift Crusader 2/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Sacrifice 1/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Justiciar 2/day, Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Turn Anarch | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Swift Crusader 3/day | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Special Ability | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Turn Mutant, Sacrifice 2/day | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Justiciar 3/day, Holy Sacrifice | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Swift Crusader 4/day, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Destroy The Destroyer | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Turn Evil | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Holy Surge, Special Ability, Sacrifice 3/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Ineffable Justiciar, Swift Crusader 5/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft , Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Rope.
Skill Points per Level: 4+Int Modifier.
Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.
Spellcasting:
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A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.
The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
Spell List:
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Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.
Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.
Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good. He can tell whether a creature is good or evil at a glance, and he can concentrate to gain the full effects of the spell.
Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.
Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.
Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. If the charisma modifier is negative, it will subtract from this amount, to a minimum of 0.
Unwavering Devotion (ex): The Paladin is immune to fear, and gains a +4 bonus versus charms and compulsions cast by evil creatures.
Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.
Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.
Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool at the bottom of the page.
Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider any creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.
Holy Strike (su): The paladin's weapon is guided by divine forces to evil foes. He gains a bonus equal to his charisma modifier to attack rolls against evil creatures. In addition, every time the paladin misses an evil creature due to concealment, he may reroll his miss chance percentile to see if he actually hits.
The bonus to attack can become a penalty from low charisma.
Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.
Sacrifice: Starting at 9th level, once per day (and an additional once per day per 5 levels thereafter) the paladin may, as a free action, pour all of his life into his ideals. For a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier, he glows with holy fire, ignited by his very life. This gives him a number of benefits.
First, he gains a +4 sacred bonus to strength & charisma for the duration (which extends the duration accordingly).
His weapons are considered one size category larger for purposes of damage, and the holy fires extend to the weapon, letting it deal an additional 1d12 damage per 5 paladin levels, up to 4d12 at level 20. Half of this damage is fire, and half is sacred.
Any spells with the evil descriptor, or SLAs from creatures with the evil subtype cast against the paladin that allow SR automatically fail.
At the end of this duration, the paladin collapses to the ground, at -1 hp and stable. If the paladin is of a type that would be destroyed at that hp total, he collapses to the ground at 1 hp and unconscious for a number of rounds equal to his sacrifice duration.
Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.
Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.
Holy Sacrifice: When the Sacrifice duration expires and the Paladin collapses, the fires surrounding him explode, washing over everything in the vicinity. Everything in a 10' radius is affected as if by a Holy Word or Dictum spell (Paladin's choice) cast at the Paladin's HD. The Paladin may end his Sacrifice prematurely in order to enjoy this effect; if he does so, the radius increases by 10' for every round he had remaining.
Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.
Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.
Holy Surge: No more than once per day, the paladin may expel all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall. It may only be used in the pursuit of non-selfish purposes, and if the paladin attempts to use it for personal gain (using the wish to gain material wealth that will be kept by himself, using the miracle to cast an atonement to circumvent the fall, etc.) he simply falls and does not get the wish or the miracle.
Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).
Special Abilities:
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Exalted Paladin:
The paladin instantly gains a bonus exalted feat.
Special Mount:
The paladin adds phantom steed to his spell list. Instead of using the statistics for the phantom steed in the spell description, the paladin uses the statistics of a heavy warhorse or light warhorse (or war pony or riding dog, if a small sized paladin),
modified as so. It gains all of the abilities from water walk on, but keeps its normal speed.
Defender:
All allies within a 30 ft. radius of the paladin gain a divine bonus to saving throws equal to 1/2 his charisma modifier.
Crusading Defender:
Requires Defender
The paladin and all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain DR/Good or Lawful equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.
Healing Defender:
Requires Defender
The Paladin & all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain fast healing equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.
Defending Daeva:
Requires Crusading Defender
The paladin gains the effects of a permanent magic circle against evil out to 30' as a supernatural ability. A paladin with Knight Templar also gains the effects of a magic circle against chaos.
Crusader's Mettle:
Gain an additional use per day of Swift Crusader.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.
Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.
Knight Templar:
All chaotic creatures are considered evil for the purposes of holy strike, holy smite, turn evil, and ineffable justiciar/destroy the destroyer. The paladin gains detect chaos as well as detect evil, and projects an aura of law as well as good.
Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.
Staggering Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned have their movement speeds reduced by 10' for the duration.
Improved Staggering Turn:
Requires: Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are
slowed, as the spell, for the duration.
Potent Turn:
Requires: Improved Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are dazed for the duration.
Unliving Healing:
Positive energy cast by the paladin heals good creatures regardless of their type. This effect extends to the paladin himself.
More to come.
New Feat:
Extra Special Ability:
Prerequisite:
At least one special ability.
Benefit:
Instantly gain the benefits of a special ability.
Special:
This feat may be taken more than once. Each time it is taken, it may apply either to another special ability, or to a stacking special ability.
Note: Now I'll be doing all sorts of alignment based warriors. I'll have at least three, and each one will have a PrC when the warrior loses his ideals. It's not necessarily an opposite alignment warrior, but a broken warrior. Here's a list!:smallbiggrin:
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Paladin (LG): My remake of the original class, and what started this thread. It's in the OP, ya dengus!:smallbiggrin:
And the TN Paladin-only PrC,
The Pragmatic: when the Paladin falls on the scale of idealism vs. cynicism, it falls hard.
Next, the
Vis Veris Vesica (NE): one who puts their idealism in themselves, completely focused on self empowerment.
The NG Vis Veris Vesica-only PrC, the Altruist: a Vis Veris Vesica who becomes disgusted with their deeds, coming to a level of redemption that they put the lives of others above their own.
Then we have the Anarch (CN of course): warrior of chaos embodied, master of both chaos incarnate, freedom, and entropy.
Sneak preview- The Pandemonia (CE), Anarch only PrC! Some
crazy fun.
Comments:
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So, it's a pretty vanilla solution... but I think it's pretty good vanilla. You have some powerful, versatile turning ability (which can be expanded upon), powerful spellcasting, and some evil-killing stuff. It all scales rather linear-ly (with a bit of a quadratic element from the spellcasting) until 15th level, when you get access to the powerhouse spells and better abilities. Then it starts scaling better.
Anyways, all in all, it's meant to be competitive with a clericzilla: not a batman cleric, but one who buffs up then goes out and kills things. Actually, preferably a bit better than the clericzilla.
Anyways... thoughts?
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Re: The Paladin [Base Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Holy Moly. Its certainly better than the original paladin, but I don't think it competes with CoDzilla, given the tales I've heard of it...
Maybe upper tier 3? I'm not a good judge, but it'll be similar to, probably slightly higher than, the martial initiators.
Also, I like the picture. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: The Paladin [Base Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Spoilerblock the picture, it's stretching the page.
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Re: The Paladin [Base Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
...saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard's Charisma modifier.
...so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level bard spell...
Your copypasta is undercooked. :)
Quote:
paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell:
Were you going to expand there?
Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.
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Re: The Paladin [Base Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
I loved the paladin enough to play as is, so I endorse this product or service.
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Re: The Paladin [Base Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roc Ness
Holy Moly. Its certainly better than the original paladin, but I don't think it competes with CoDzilla, given the tales I've heard of it...
Maybe upper tier 3? I'm not a good judge, but it'll be similar to, probably slightly higher than, the martial initiators.
Maybe not Druidzilla, or DMM persist clericzilla, but if it's on the level of an initiator, I'm happy.:smallbiggrin:
Quote:
Also, I like the picture. :smallbiggrin:
I do too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma Kode
Your copypasta is undercooked. :)
I have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously edited those "bard" things in. >.>
Quote:
Were you going to expand there?
Nnnnnope.
Quote:
Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.
I was aiming for mid-high tier 3. It's not tier 2, trust me.
And great! I wanted people to want to play the paladin, the great champion of good, the last bastion of righteousness and purity in this world. I wanted it to be worth it, specifically.
And I did edit the paladin's code, note. But, yes, you're supposed to be strict with the code with this one: there should be some damned if you do, damned if you don't instances. That's what makes playing a paladin interesting.:smallcool:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
I kinda like the retained code but making that paragraph clearer is probably in order. Defining "Innocent" would be worthwhile and certain other things like that.
Does a paladin instantly know if they've struck an innocent by mistake? Can they, in any way, sense guilt or intention? It's possible for [if you read the spell description, i've used this on players before] a commoner under a powerful [Evil] descriptor spell to register as "very evil" under detections, for instance...
Do you suffer from the lost Cha? I know there's spellcasting, but do you suffer penalties to hit evil until you've made right? That would certainly be cool and a -5 penalty on one of your big uscle classes would be worth a race against time before the enemy found you...
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Not a great judge of balance but love this variant, i going see if my dm will let me play this. Also Holy Surge is awesome
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
This is pretty cool. So far I haven't found many homebrew I would be interested in trying but this one is. One thing shouldn't the spell list have prerequisites? Beyond that I don't have enough experience to suggest anything else.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mulletmanalive
I kinda like the retained code but making that paragraph clearer is probably in order. Defining "Innocent" would be worthwhile and certain other things like that.
Does a paladin instantly know if they've struck an innocent by mistake? Can they, in any way, sense guilt or intention? It's possible for [if you read the spell description, i've used this on players before] a commoner under a powerful [Evil] descriptor spell to register as "very evil" under detections, for instance...
Do you suffer from the lost Cha? I know there's spellcasting, but do you suffer penalties to hit evil until you've made right? That would certainly be cool and a -5 penalty on one of your big uscle classes would be worth a race against time before the enemy found you...
Honestly... this one's hard.
There's always DMs who will give you no-win situations and make you fall from that... The code is sortof loose, yes, but if the DM wants you to fall, you'll fall. I should include something about motivation.
And, yeah, you suffer from the lost charisma. Pretty much everything is based off of charisma... the only thing you'll retain is turning, unwavering devotion, and the more fluff based stuff, making this little better than a warrior. You can't cast spells, your turning will be abysmal, and you get no bonus against evil creatures.
I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...:smallamused:
@sdeligar, Robert Blackletter: Thanks!:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Well, I find Justicar somewhat terrifying, as that does mean you can start Smiting Good creatures with impunity.
I do assume doing that would cause a Fall, though, so perhaps it is not as bad as it looks.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juhn
Well, I find Justicar somewhat terrifying, as that does mean you can start Smiting Good creatures with impunity.
I do assume doing that would cause a Fall, though, so perhaps it is not as bad as it looks.
Yes, that would cause you to fall. It's just so that if the Paladin is facing a lot of neutral creatures- say, slaads, which by all rights he should be able to smite- he's not totally screwed. I don't like one trick ponies.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Well, I'm glad people like it. Any other comments?
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fail
Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?
Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
I like the concept. And the approach to Falling seems like a good one- it limits the Fallen Paladin, but not as badly.
Dropping ideas like paladins being unable to multiclass, is also a good idea.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...:smallamused:
I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mulletmanalive
I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"
Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Not to nitpick, but its JUSTICIAR, not justicar. The word justicar only really came about because fantasy writers and D&D players kept misspelling the word and it stuck. Sorry, but I am a stickler for proper spelling, especially of one of my favorite words. I'm REALLY miffed that they spelled it "justicar" in Mass Effect 2 as well.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archpaladin Zousha
Not to nitpick, but its JUSTICIAR, not justicar. The word justicar only really came about because fantasy writers and D&D players kept misspelling the word and it stuck. Sorry, but I am a stickler for proper spelling, especially of one of my favorite words. I'm REALLY miffed that they spelled it "justicar" in Mass Effect 2 as well.
Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Ok first of all I have to thank you for nerfing wisdom. Now I gotta say everytime I look at paladin, I'm disappointed I read the PHB entry and thought wow this is lame. I was expecting a tough evil-smiting machine of holy death, what I saw was a low tier fighter with severely limited powers, and a fall mechanic that DMs will use just to screw over your mediocre class, I play planescape and grimdark settings, so 9 times out of ten I'm not fighting just evil, but neutral with bad intentions, or a drunkard, or someone under a dominate creature spell. So I appreciate this fix so that paladins will be more than a one-trick pony.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...51#post8958251Shameless self endorsement.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaragosKitsune
Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.
I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\
@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.:smallwink:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\
@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.:smallwink:
Fixed lol. I'll be using this variant soon.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.
To be fair, a lot of those discrepencies are because when Webster made his first dictionary, he deliberately altered the spellings of some words to make the words more "American," since it was during the Revolution. That's why we spell these words like this:
honor
dialog
theater
While the Brits spell them like this:
honour
dialogue
theatre
But "justicar" simply isn't a word. Thank you for fixing it and sorry for whining about it. Trying to qualify for the "Uptight English Teacher" prestige class as Durkon would say. :smallwink:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.
Having people look at cleric, then at this, then have doubts, is doable. Desirable to you, though?
Also: "this clause doesn't extend to nonsentient creatures".
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.
ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DracoDei
ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).
Yeah. So, if the paladin gets charisma drain, ouch. Sortof like if the mid-level wizard gets enough intelligence damage to not be able to cast his best spells- ouch.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Something I don't like: this is a purely offensive class by its features. No healing, no protection, just smashing into peoples' faces. When I think of Paladin, I think "Cecil Harvey" or such: warriors whose divine power is as much a shield to ward their allies as it is a sword with which to destroy their enemies.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\
Could you deal with the blackguard next? :smalltongue:
seriously, though... these guys are killing them now...
Also, could you add a healing ability? Healing spells on the spell list, or at least the power to bestow other's wounds on them (aka, you heal your dying friend. Now you take all the damage you healed.).
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mando Knight
Something I don't like: this is a purely offensive class by its features. No healing, no protection, just smashing into peoples' faces. When I think of Paladin, I think "Cecil Harvey" or such: warriors whose divine power is as much a shield to ward their allies as it is a sword with which to destroy their enemies.
First 3 levels: Just Templar, Unwavering devotion, and divine grace, are all defensive. It also gets plenty of healing spells on its spell list: stuff like lay on hands is redundant when you have prolific access to cure spells.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DMofDarkness
Could you deal with the blackguard next? :smalltongue:
seriously, though... these guys are killing them now...
Probably not. I'm thinking of making an anarch, though... or maybe a TN paladin, as that's my favorite alignment.
Quote:
Also, could you add a healing ability? Healing spells on the spell list, or at least the power to bestow other's wounds on them (aka, you heal your dying friend. Now you take all the damage you healed.).
They have healing spells on the spell list.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
First: Thank you so much for making Smite Evil a constant ability. Just for that, I love this fix.
Second: This Paladin has a mechanic that allows it to flip off the universe and take the third option? YES! :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
... failed my spot check. :smallredface:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Insanealien
First: Thank you so much for making Smite Evil a constant ability. Just for that, I love this fix.
Daily smite evil is laaaaaaaaame.
Quote:
Second: This Paladin has a mechanic that allows it to flip off the universe and take the third option? YES! :smallbiggrin:
That was pretty much the intent: if your DM decides to screw you over, at least you can make something out of it.:smallcool:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
First 3 levels: Just Templar, Unwavering devotion, and divine grace, are all defensive. It also gets plenty of healing spells on its spell list: stuff like lay on hands is redundant when you have prolific access to cure spells.
Those are all self-defensive features. The spell list is also a poor replacement, since unlike Clerics they would actually have to prepare healing spells, and they get far fewer spells per day and known than the Cleric, meaning that they might be sorely tempted to sacrifice a healing spell for another buffing spell. A defensive feature would be like several of the 4e Paladin's powers, which force the enemy to attack the Paladin, either through punishing those that harm his allies, or by redirecting the attack onto himself (often then followed up with a counterattack).
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
I really like the class and think it is much more balanced than the PHB Paladin. Do you have any plans to introduce the paladin mount? that was probably my favorite feature of the old paladin.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
I didn't understand the mount thing for the most part mounts are useless because of the places they can't go (most dungeons, small planar gates, indoors, etc.), assuming of course your mount is a horse. Smaller mounts especially stuff that can fly or spider climb is awesome but usually unbalanced.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Hmmm.....I was reading it, and it seems awesome so far. Much better than the WotC paladin.
I had some ideas for special abilities
Celestial Steed
As the WotC paladin's 5th level ability, maybe gaining the celestial template at some point.
Because I really like the concept of a knight in shining armor on a powerful steed, whether or not it's in any way practical. Being a special ability means not every paladin has to have a mount.
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Take the Blow (yeah, feel free to rename)
As an immediate action, redirect an attack targeting a single adjacent ally. The attacker attacks as if targeting the target, but deals the damage to you instead.
Improved Take the Blow
Required: Take the Blow
As Take the Blow, except you may redirect all forms of damage from a single attack, and your target may be up to 10 feet away. Negative levels, level drain, ability drain, ability damage, insanity, etc. The paladin may make his own saving throw to resist these effects. You may not choose to redirect only part of the damage, you must take all the damage or none of it.
The paladin uses his own AC or the target's, whichever one is better in any given situation. For example, a paladin protecting a rogue could use his own normal AC and flat-footed AC, while using the rogue's touch AC. This applies only to the redirected attacks, not to any other attacks the paladin may suffer from this round.
In addition, the effect of the damage is lessened. Subtract half the paladin's Charisma score (round down) from the redirected hit point damage. The paladin is not subject to death by massive damage when redirecting damage.
Greater Take the Blow
Required: Improved Take the Blow
As Improved Take the Blow, except you may choose a single target within 20 feet and redirect all attacks (hit point, swallow whole, bull rush, insanity, whatever) that the target takes this round. You may not choose to redirect only some of the attacks, you must take all the damage or none of it. This choice cannot be changed mid-round.
The paladin uses his own AC and save bonuses or the target's, whichever one is better in any given situation. For example, a paladin protecting a rogue could use his own Fortitude and Will save bonuses, normal AC, and flat-footed AC, while using the rogue's Reflex save and touch AC. This applies only to the redirected attacks, not to any other attacks the paladin may suffer from this round.
In addition, the effects of the redirected damage is weakened. Redirected hit point damage is halved (round down), or subtract the Charisma score from the amount of damage dealt, whichever would be best in a case-by-case situation.
All level drain becomes only negative levels, ability drain becomes ability damage, and negative levels and ability damage have no effect. For an ongoing condition, such as insanity (but not death), the paladin may make a new save each round.
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Well, personally, I've always viewed the paladin as a protector first, and a divine smiter second. The Take the Blow abilities let a paladin shine as a meat shield. Nothing's going to stop a dragon from trying to eat that paladin except the paladin. Nothing is ever going to eat the paladin's companions ever. Period.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
The alignment straitjacket aside, I have an issue with the code.
Paladins are empowered by a deity, and as divine spellcasters must be within one step of their deity's alignment.
So here's my problem: A paladin of Heironeous(LG) and a paladin of Pelor(NG) must both be lawful and honorable and act within the law. Both are strait-jacketed into specific actions, and both believe that all Evil creatures can be redeemed.
They absolutely must follow this code. Despite Pelor having an irrational hatred of the undead, or Pelor being a deity who is Neutral on Law-v-Chaos. Despite Heironeous stylizing himself as the arch-enemy of all Evil, or the Heironean Code saying nothing at all about obedience to mortal law.
So, why must my Paladin of Pelor or Paladin of Heironeous act within a code of conduct that is only partially true to either deity?
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mando Knight
Those are all self-defensive features. The spell list is also a poor replacement, since unlike Clerics they would actually have to prepare healing spells, and they get far fewer spells per day and known than the Cleric, meaning that they might be sorely tempted to sacrifice a healing spell for another buffing spell. A defensive feature would be like several of the 4e Paladin's powers, which force the enemy to attack the Paladin, either through punishing those that harm his allies, or by redirecting the attack onto himself (often then followed up with a counterattack).
Actually, they don't have to prepare spells: I changed the paladin to a spontaneous caster. If you want healing, you can go right at it.
Anyways, that's a good point: I'll work on a special ability to satisfy those in your boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldar Ditto
I really like the class and think it is much more balanced than the PHB Paladin. Do you have any plans to introduce the paladin mount? that was probably my favorite feature of the old paladin.
I'm considering making it a special ability, though it might be a tad too powerful. Personally, I never liked the special mount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strudel110
I didn't understand the mount thing for the most part mounts are useless because of the places they can't go (most dungeons, small planar gates, indoors, etc.), assuming of course your mount is a horse. Smaller mounts especially stuff that can fly or spider climb is awesome but usually unbalanced.
I concur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ajadea
Hmmm.....I was reading it, and it seems awesome so far. Much better than the WotC paladin.
Thanks!:smallbiggrin:
Quote:
I had some ideas for special abilities
*snip*
Interesting- like I said, I'm still considering making the mount a special ability. I might make something like take the blow... I'll have to look over it.
Quote:
Well, personally, I've always viewed the paladin as a protector first, and a divine smiter second. The Take the Blow abilities let a paladin shine as a meat shield. Nothing's going to stop a dragon from trying to eat that paladin except the paladin. Nothing is ever going to eat the paladin's companions ever. Period.
@MandoKnight as well: Me, I've always seen the paladin as a templar. He smites evil, and he protects the innocent. Not his party members: the innocent, those who can't protect themselves. Kindof like PETA, but much, much more cool.:smalltongue:
Still, yes, I'll include some special abilities to do that. I think I'll be looking at the Marshal and the Knight for inspiration.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZeroNumerous
The alignment straitjacket aside, I have an issue with the code.
Paladins are empowered by a deity, and as divine spellcasters must be within one step of their deity's alignment.
So here's my problem: A paladin of Heironeous(LG) and a paladin of Pelor(NG) must both be lawful and honorable and act within the law. Both are strait-jacketed into specific actions, and both believe that all Evil creatures can be redeemed.
They absolutely must follow this code. Despite Pelor having an irrational hatred of the undead, or Pelor being a deity who is Neutral on Law-v-Chaos. Despite Heironeous stylizing himself as the arch-enemy of all Evil, or the Heironean Code saying nothing at all about obedience to mortal law.
So, why must my Paladin of Pelor or Paladin of Heironeous act within a code of conduct that is only partially true to either deity?
Indeed. I think the code should change depending on the god.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZeroNumerous
The alignment straitjacket aside, I have an issue with the code.
Paladins are empowered by a deity, and as divine spellcasters must be within one step of their deity's alignment.
So here's my problem: A paladin of Heironeous(LG) and a paladin of Pelor(NG) must both be lawful and honorable and act within the law. Both are strait-jacketed into specific actions, and both believe that all Evil creatures can be redeemed.
They absolutely must follow this code. Despite Pelor having an irrational hatred of the undead, or Pelor being a deity who is Neutral on Law-v-Chaos. Despite Heironeous stylizing himself as the arch-enemy of all Evil, or the Heironean Code saying nothing at all about obedience to mortal law.
So, why must my Paladin of Pelor or Paladin of Heironeous act within a code of conduct that is only partially true to either deity?
Because this isn't The Paladin of Pelor Class, this is the Paladin Protector of the Innocent Class. If they want to worship Pelor, fine. They still need to follow the paladin's code- they're essentially going above and beyond the call of their deity. Paladins are divine warriors empowered by their own beliefs in purity and righteousness, not empowered by their deity: this is why their abilities are keyed off of charisma, not wisdom. If you want to play a character who gains power from their god, play a cleric. I'm making the paladin to fit my own idea of what the paladin's paradigm should be, and I respectfully disagree with yours.:smallsmile:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
All my paladins are atheist.
A paladin's purpose is to serve the causes of law and good, whether we're talking a crusading templar or a divine shield. Things like worship get in the way.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ajadea
All my paladins are atheist.
A paladin's purpose is to serve the causes of law and good, whether we're talking a crusading templar or a divine shield. Things like worship get in the way.
That's pretty much what I'm going for with all this.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
Because this isn't The Paladin of Pelor Class, this is the Paladin Protector of the Innocent Class. If they want to worship Pelor, fine. They still need to follow the paladin's code- they're essentially going above and beyond the call of their deity. Paladins are divine warriors empowered by their own beliefs in purity and righteousness, not empowered by their deity: this is why their abilities are keyed off of charisma, not wisdom. If you want to play a character who gains power from their god, play a cleric. I'm making the paladin to fit my own idea of what the paladin's paradigm should be, and I respectfully disagree with yours.:smallsmile:
Ok well that does make sense when you put it that way.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Given that one of my favourite paladin scenes is in Tymora's Luck- where the paladin disobeys her deity- because she realizes that what he wants to do is evil- I agree with the idea of paladins as very much Code first, Deity second.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
this is very nice, I approve.
about tiers... tier 1 completely breaks the game in many ways, tier 2 breaks it in only a few ways... they basically get to say "no" to the DM's carefully plotted plot... raise the dead, teleport all over the place, disjunction the one ring, etc etc.
tier 3 are actually potentially more lethal in an unplanned fighter than higher tiers (especially if cheese is disallowed), but don't possess world and plot breaking powers. They are considered the highest tier level that should be played.
this seems to be tier 3 to me, and that is perfect.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0
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Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite
Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.
Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior
As far as killing things with sharp bits of metal, CODzilla is far from perfect, it simply doesn't have the feats... nor does it really need to kill things with sharp sticks because, hey, its a tier 1 character. telling reality to bend over is what it does.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taltamir
this is very nice, I approve.
about tiers... tier 1 completely breaks the game in many ways, tier 2 breaks it in only a few ways... they basically get to say "no" to the DM's carefully plotted plot... raise the dead, teleport all over the place, disjunction the one ring, etc etc.
tier 3 are actually potentially more lethal in an unplanned fighter than higher tiers (especially if cheese is disallowed), but don't possess world and plot breaking powers. They are considered the highest tier level that should be played.
this seems to be tier 3 to me, and that is perfect.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0
As far as killing things with sharp bits of metal, CODzilla is far from perfect, it simply doesn't have the feats... nor does it really need to kill things with sharp sticks because, hey, its a tier 1 character. telling reality to bend over is what it does.
I concur.
The reason I talk about clericzillas is the common argument that a cleric can do what a fighter or paladin can do, but better: my goal was to change that. I was really going for mid tier 3, though. So, let the clerics have their reality altering casting, but I don't want them to still be better at smiting evil than the paladin. I hope I've accomplished that.
Quote:
Given that one of my favourite paladin scenes is in Tymora's Luck- where the paladin disobeys her deity- because she realizes that what he wants to do is evil- I agree with the idea of paladins as very much Code first, Deity second.
Exactly what I was going for. Whether a paladin follows a deity or not is largely irrelevant: their true religion is an ideal.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Added in a 3- special ability chain for defensive auras, and a special ability for a special mount. I particularly like the special mount one. Check it out.:smallcool:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Awesome work, always loved the paladin, my first D&D character was a paladin and I would have loved to see this fix at that table that day.
That being said, there is this one issue with the paladin code that sooner or later will be brought either by a paladin player getting screwed or by a paladin hating DM wanting to screw paladins with his arbitrary interpretation of stuff.
Legitimate Authority:
According to some people, if the rightfull heir of the throne of a country/city where a paladin serves is, say, Lawful Evil, then the pladin would have to stfu and obey the li'l tyrant, or risk becoming chaotic (wtf is these people interpretation of lawful??). So Richard the Righteous, a paladin of unquestionable virtue would have to serve Prince Plotty McBadguy (thus falling, because at some point, Plotty is gonna make Rich kill a peasant) or disobey and thus stop being a paladin (because disobeying is chaotic and you're supposed to be lawful).
Now, I know that such a thinking line is a bunch of bull#$%&$, but then again, there are DM's that like bull#$%&&$. So I propose the following change: The paladin is expected to follow Legitimate authority, but when such authority is evil, he must see that it is replaced by Righteous Authority (yes, that creates Lawful revolutionaries, but it also eliminates stupid "serve authority and stfu" DMing)
Anyway, my 2 cp, hope it helps
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
There is the BoED approach- whether than paladin must disobey orders to do evil (and this does not make them any less lawful) but, at the same time, they won't generally overthrow a government just because it's corrupt- they will try and use less violent means. At least until violence becomes the only reasonable option.
You won't fall if Plotty McBadguy orders you to do something evil and you say "no way"- but until then, the paladin might do their best to steer the Evil guy away from evilness, rather than overthrow him the moment he comes to the throne.
Note that this version of the paladin says nothing about "may not associate with people who offend against his moral code"-so he;s not going to be penalized for remaining in Plotty McBadguy's service and trying to redeem him.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyuu Himura
Awesome work, always loved the paladin, my first D&D character was a paladin and I would have loved to see this fix at that table that day.
That being said, there is this one issue with the paladin code that sooner or later will be brought either by a paladin player getting screwed or by a paladin hating DM wanting to screw paladins with his arbitrary interpretation of stuff.
Legitimate Authority:
According to some people, if the rightfull heir of the throne of a country/city where a paladin serves is, say, Lawful Evil, then the pladin would have to stfu and obey the li'l tyrant, or risk becoming chaotic (wtf is these people interpretation of lawful??). So Richard the Righteous, a paladin of unquestionable virtue would have to serve Prince Plotty McBadguy (thus falling, because at some point, Plotty is gonna make Rich kill a peasant) or disobey and thus stop being a paladin (because disobeying is chaotic and you're supposed to be lawful).
Now, I know that such a thinking line is a bunch of bull#$%&$, but then again, there are DM's that like bull#$%&&$. So I propose the following change: The paladin is expected to follow Legitimate authority, but when such authority is evil, he must see that it is replaced by Righteous Authority (yes, that creates Lawful revolutionaries, but it also eliminates stupid "serve authority and stfu" DMing)
Anyway, my 2 cp, hope it helps
Good point! I meant to include a clause that a paladin may disobey lawful authority if said authority is telling him to commit an evil act.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
'Kay, the code is updated and hammered out... anything else it needs? Any more ideas/critique on special abilities?
Also, any requests for a paladin of a different alignment spectrum?
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Here's a question.
Quote:
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.
Does this mean that the paladin's Charisma drops to 1, or is effectively 1? Are they incapacitated by even a single point of charisma damage? Or do they keep their charisma score, but for the purposes of the Paladin class abilities, their score is treated as if it were a 1?
Also, does this charisma drop (real or otherwise) affect the Paladin's multiclass abilities that might be based on charisma?
I have to say, I really like this class fix, and I'm probably going to have my DM take a look at it. If he lets me use it, I'll report back on how it fares. :smallwink:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AtS
Does this mean that the paladin's Charisma drops to 1, or is effectively 1? Are they incapacitated by even a single point of charisma damage? Or do they keep their charisma score, but for the purposes of the Paladin class abilities, their score is treated as if it were a 1?
It drops to 1, like a construct. An ego whip is fatal.
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Also, does this charisma drop (real or otherwise) affect the Paladin's multiclass abilities that might be based on charisma?
Yep, so a sorcadin is equally screwed. It reflects the blow to the paladin's confidence: his entire being is built around an ideal, and he's lost it.
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I have to say, I really like this class fix, and I'm probably going to have my DM take a look at it. If he lets me use it, I'll report back on how it fares. :smallwink:
Thanks! I'd appreciate that.:smallsmile:
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
Well, this class is certainly an improvement to the standard paladin. HOWEVER, I do have a major disagreement.
"A paladin must stop his quest to apprehend a petty criminal."
That is just... what? I mean, that doesn't make sense to me. What if his quest is on a time limit and apprehending every criminal he sees prevents him from completing his quest?
And if he doesn't complete his quest, hypothetically, the world ends. Really, is that for the greater good? "Oh, yeah, I caught the criminal, but it didn't matter because the world ended."
See what I'm getting at?
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
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Originally Posted by
Woodsman
Well, this class is certainly an improvement to the standard paladin. HOWEVER, I do have a major disagreement.
"A paladin must stop his quest to apprehend a petty criminal."
That is just... what? I mean, that doesn't make sense to me. What if his quest is on a time limit and apprehending every criminal he sees prevents him from completing his quest?
And if he doesn't complete his quest, hypothetically, the world ends. Really, is that for the greater good? "Oh, yeah, I caught the criminal, but it didn't matter because the world ended."
See what I'm getting at?
The point was, he needs to uphold righteousness wherever he goes... though, yeah, that was poorly worded. I'll remove that clause until I can find a better wording- I need it, and this may sound silly, but... to lack pragmatism. The paladin code is wholly idealist- practicality doesn't come into the equation.
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Re: Will the Real Paladin Please Stand Up? [Class fix, 3.5, PEACH]
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Originally Posted by
Gorgondantess
The point was, he needs to uphold righteousness wherever he goes... though, yeah, that was poorly worded. I'll remove that clause until I can find a better wording- I need it, and this may sound silly, but... to lack pragmatism. The paladin code is wholly idealist- practicality doesn't come into the equation.
How about something like this:
"Given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin must confront the one which would do the greatest harm if left unchecked. He must always act for the greater good, even if it very occasionally means letting a lesser evil go unchecked for a period of time."
Obviously, this is just a draft, typed in about two minutes, but it's a start.