What would you do in this situation? [3.5]

So yeah, first a bit of information: We are playing 3.5. Our current campaign has been going on for about 3-4 years and our headquarters has been in Hillsfar for quite some time now and are regarded as local heroes.

Our characters are at level 22-25 at this point and are quite rich. They own some property and an adventurers' guild which are also located in Hillsfar.

The thing is: in a war against Zentahrim we noticed Maalthir committing quite a lot of war crimes and decided to capture him and bring him to justice. The problem? He is the ruler of Hillsfar, so who would be the one to judge him? Who would rule the city if he was executed?

And if we DON'T kill him, he'll probably come after us because of this incident.

So what to do? Should we just behead him and take control of the city or take as much of our belongings as we can and run for it?

I'd capture him and send him to the rival kingdom for sentencing, then have the people appoint a ruler.

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Originally Posted by Jinn Master

I'd capture him and send him to the rival kingdom for sentencing, then have the people appoint a ruler.

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Well the thing is, we don't really want to send him to our enemies. It would be bad to our image. Hillsfarians could suspect that we are against them.

Do what people normally did when they dislike their ruler. Start a revolution.

At level 25, pretty much no mundane in the world should be able to stand against you.

*googles*

So this guy is the neutral evil dictator of a city-state, and you've now decided you don't like him and think he should be deposed even though you've apparently been happy to operate out of his city as his subjects for the last several years?

I don't imagine there's any other authority you can turn to, not that would be recognized by the people or the neighbouring countries. Acting on your own authority will make you a new and inherently disruptive force in the politics of the region, meaning you're unlikely to be well-received by neighbouring rulers who'll wonder when you might decide you don't like how they're running their countries either. Engineering a coup or uprising will do the same thing, but with more appearance (and, perhaps, reality) of legitimacy.

You're about to enter politics. You'll get very dirty and a lot of people will die and at least some of them will be your fault. Have fun!

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Originally Posted by Eldan

Do what people normally did when they dislike their ruler. Start a revolution.

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ATM we're still in a war so that might not be the wisest decision.

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Originally Posted by kamikasei

*googles*

So this guy is the neutral evil dictator of a city-state, and you've now decided you don't like him and think he should be deposed even though you've apparently been happy to operate out of his city as his subjects for the last several years?

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We never actually worked for him before, we only met him few times. We worked for a bishop he killed.

You could always threaten him. Let him know that you'll kill him if he doesn't stop being so brutal.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRectum

ATM we're still in a war so that might not be the wisest decision.


We never actually worked for him before, we only met him few times. We worked for a bishop he killed.

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Right. And I assume you can't just win the war, become heroes and depose him for some reason.

The next step, then, is mindraping or sanctifying him into a good person. Problem solved.

If you're not too much on the lawful side, blackmail and extortion might be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Eldan

Right. And I assume you can't just win the war, become heroes and depose him for some reason.

The next step, then, is mindraping or sanctifying him into a good person. Problem solved.

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Winning the war takes time. Could be years (in-game time) before it ends. That second option could work...

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Originally Posted by Jinn Master

You could always threaten him. Let him know that you'll kill him if he doesn't stop being so brutal.

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Originally Posted by Aergoth

If you're not too much on the lawful side, blackmail and extortion might be a good idea.

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Can't. We have a paladin and a lawful good monk in our party.

If you're lawful, you can't screw with him anyway- he is the law. You're breaking the law one way or another, it's just a question of degree. Alignment is not a straightjacket.

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Originally Posted by Jinn Master

If you're lawful, you can't screw with him anyway- he is the law. You're breaking the law one way or another, it's just a question of degree. Alignment is not a straightjacket.

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War crimes are against the law. Paladins can depose evil dictators even though they're in charge without breaking their Paladin's Oath.

Oh god, Paladin Oath debate starting. ABORT. ABORT.

As for the OP-
Step 1) Win war
Step 2) Declare Maalthir (whoever that is) unfit to rule.
Step 3) Depose him
Step 4) Have your own kingdom
Step 5) ???
Step 6) Profit.

The DM should have a specific oath set, and the pally can pray to his god for guidance. Roleplay it well, and you can break a law or two to serve the greater good, even as a paladin.

We're not all lawful. There are 5 members in the party and two of them are lawful good, one chaotic good, one true neutral and my character is chaotic neutral.

Could a geas/quest work on him? So he'd come to surrender himself to us after the war?

So, find a lawful way to depose him. Play by the rules. Is there a previous lineage or leadership that you can return to power? Can you take his bite away somehow?

If you're in a war I find the simplest solution would be find some way to make him fight on the front lines and maybe he'll get slaughtered. You could geas/quest him into doing this and although it might make him into a martyr he will be out of your way. Mind you I am use to mostly low level play so this may not work at epic levels

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Originally Posted by CaptainRectum

ATM we're still in a war so that might not be the wisest decision.

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Wars are a great time to depose people so long as you think you can do it without disrupting the chain of command too much. Fake an assassination and become the heroes who stepped in to reluctantly take on the burden of rule to stave off defeat. Then you have the backing of the army too. You can even actually hand over authority after the victory to a civilian government if you feel like it.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRectum

We never actually worked for him before, we only met him few times. We worked for a bishop he killed.

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You lived under his rule. You accepted his protection in war. His laws protected you from crime. Had he done nothing until now to make you realize he was an unpleasant fellow?

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Originally Posted by Amnestic

War crimes are against the law.

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Whose law? His? A treaty that binds him? If there is a law he's broken, consider prosecuting him on that basis. If the law is that of his own nation, does the rest of the government have ways to censure their ruler? My impression from a quick look at the FR wiki is that they don't...

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Originally Posted by CaptainRectum

Could a geas/quest work on him? So he'd come to surrender himself to us after the war?

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So you're okay with letting him continue to commit atrocities, so long as you get to punish him afterwards? The victims of the war crimes between now and the war's end don't factor in to your plans? Or do you expect for some reason that all his atrocities are committed now and he's got it all out of his system?

You should trick him into doing something to piss off the Church of Silvanus.


That will end hilariously.

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Originally Posted by kamikasei

Whose law? His? A treaty that binds him? If there is a law he's broken, consider prosecuting him on that basis. If the law is that of his own nation, does the rest of the government have ways to censure their ruler? My impression from a quick look at the FR wiki is that they don't...

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Rewriting posts without looking over them again will be my downfall eventually. It was meant to read "War crimes are generally against the law."

Geass him into poisoning the towns water supply, conveniently track it back to him and then kill him for selling us out to the enemy. Take over the city and win the war.

That might just be a bit too reckless for lawful good party members :smallwink:

I really think your best bet is using hard mind control. Use him as a puppet until the end of the war, then replace him when you can handle some internal unrest.

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Originally Posted by Eldan

That might just be a bit too reckless for lawful good party members :smallwink:

I really think your best bet is using hard mind control. Use him as a puppet until the end of the war, then replace him when you can handle some internal unrest.

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Which is why you don't tell them. It makes it all the more believable when your party paladin Angily swearing vengeance on the one responsible for the citizens suffering and get's him shiny points.

Ah, but.

First of all, the Paladin should already be motivated to take down an evil ruler committing war crimes. If you just need something to convince the population to let you remove their ruler, you can do that in less destructive ways.

Furthermore, poisoning the town doesn't make much sense for an evil ruler already in power. It would probably only make people suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Eldan

Ah, but.

First of all, the Paladin should already be motivated to take down an evil ruler committing war crimes. If you just need something to convince the population to let you remove their ruler, you can do that in less destructive ways.

Furthermore, poisoning the town doesn't make much sense for an evil ruler already in power. It would probably only make people suspicious.

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No but it makes perfect sense for an evil ruler already in power who is about to sell out his people to the enemy.

From there all you need are a few forgery checks, and a dominate monster spell to get him to write the response letters himself.

Take page from Princess Bride. Kidnap him and then kill him on the border with some enemy troops. Since the two groups are already at war, no one will think that it could have been a third party. Course that might cause issues with the L/G members.
You could always not tell them, or just hire an assassin. Depending on how influential you are you might be able to blackmail him into going straight. Evil men like power and will do just about anything to keep it. Threaten to expose his crimes or slip a dagger between his ribs, and he'll come around. If he doesn't, meh, politicians are a dime a dozen.

Forge a prophecy. "(vague description of your current party) shall lead Hillsfar into a glorious new age." Or some similar blather. At level 25, it shouldn't be too hard for you to get the townsfolk to believe it. Let it spread a bit, and wait for a few peasants to start to realize it's about you guys. Then go to the current king/dictator/whatever, and tell him that you're aware of the prophecy. The peasants are getting restless, and you'd love to make sure that there's no disorder in the land. They're going to believe it no matter what happens now. Offer to work with him to manage the crisis.

"And ruling that whole country was quite a lot of work, wasn't it? You've made a lot of enemies along the way. With us in charge, the target will be off of you. You can retire in style, with a guarantee of safety and more riches than you could ever dream of. You can even keep your title if you want, or we can invent some new kind of honorific for you. History will remember you not only as a great conqueror, but the ruler wise enough to see the will of the gods."

Of course the unspoken threat would be that you won't be as agreeable if he resists. And having that conversation will win you some serious brownie points with the local population. If he refuses (and he probably will) you have a plausible justification when you execute him after the overthrow.

Hmm. Like the prophecy idea.

At this level, it shouldn't be too hard to get a solar (get a chaotic one, to make sure), explain the situation to him, and let him spread the prophecy by appearing in the middle of the town square somewhere. Solars are one step below the gods anyway, so most people should believe them.

So is the goal to get this guy out of the way so he doesn't cause further harm (in which case the chief concern is simply that his removal doesn't cause more harm than leaving him in place would), or to bring him to justice?

Justice is hard. It's a lot harder than just assassinating someone or talking them in to quietly stepping down. You have to rein it in before it turns in to vengeance, and you have to face opposition from other powerful people who fear being brought to justice or "brought to justice" in their turn.