Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")

This came up in the last session.
My Warforged Juggernaut wanted to jump a gap. A 5-foot gap.
Simple, isn't it?
No.

According to the rules, my Juggie takes a penalty for not having a 30-foot base movement. Because some of it's movement will be used in the jump, it doesn't have the required 'run-up' either, doubling the DC. Then there is the penalty for Adamantine Armour Plating (a requirement for Juggies).
Basically, with no actual ranks in Jump, a Warforged Juggernaut needs to roll a 21 (on a D20) to make a 5-foot jump... even though the character is taller than that, and could simply fall across the hole and drag themselves up the other side.

Any more wierdities that people have noticed?

No, you can make a 20' runup for the jump even if you don't have a 20' movement. There is no rule stating the runup and jump must be on the same round. Admittedly, then it's even more ridiculous (imagine jumping and freezing in midair as you run out of movement, to complete the jump on the next round), but works by the rules.

For something really absurd, check out the Faster-than-Light Horseback Travel:

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Get a +19 Ride modifier. Line an arbitrarily-long row of horses, side to side. Mount one horse as a free action (DC 20 Ride check, achieved automatically), dismount as a free action on the other side (again, DC 20). Repeat as many times as needed, moving along the row of horses at arbitrarily high speed.

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You seem to have a very odd idea of what's trivial. A five foot standing jump is not something everyone can do and the character you described has numerous factors counting against him and may still be able to do it because of a most likely super human strength score.

Yes, your character could just fall across the gap, but then he'd need to make a climb check to scramble up the edge which the armor check penalty would still apply to. You'd more than likely succeed, but look lame doing it; the choice you made (or considered) leads to plenty of real world injuries.

DC 5 normally for a 5-foot long jump. Double that for no running start, that's DC 10. -5 penalty for the Adamantine Body feat, equivalent to a DC 15. I assume that since you're a juggernaut, you also have a pretty good str score? That's nowhere near your numbers. What's the deal?

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Originally Posted by Crasical

DC 5 normally for a 5-foot long jump. Double that for no running start, that's DC 10. -5 penalty for the Adamantine Body feat, equivalent to a DC 15. I assume that since you're a juggernaut, you also have a pretty good str score? That's nowhere near your numbers. What's the deal?

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Looks like he's also taking a -6 penalty for 20ft move speed. Still, I'd assume a character like that has a decent Str score.



As for the claim of that being absurd, I don't think so. I seriously doubt I could make a 5-foot jump without a running start, and my body isn't even made out of adamantine.

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Originally Posted by panaikhan

Any more wierdities that people have noticed?

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Anything involving Diplomancy, Bluff, or Knowledge: Local as-written.

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Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye

As for the claim of that being absurd, I don't think so. I seriously doubt I could make a 5-foot jump without a running start, and my body isn't even made out of adamantine.

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I agree. I wouldn't assume it to be too hard for a person, but that is still assuming completely unencumbered.

Of course, just because you cannot jump five feet doesn't mean you couldn't just reach over the gap - or even simply step over it. I'd certainly assume that someone weighing close to a ton would have poor jumping ability, which naturally limits their mobility in some ways.

A classic skill check absurdity: seeing the moon requires a spot check of over 100 million.

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Originally Posted by Kazyan

A classic skill check absurdity: seeing the moon requires a spot check of over 100 million.

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You do not need to make a spot check for something out in the open; plainly visible objects, especially light sources, are automatically seen.

Your required spot check is better for spotting, say, a specific lunar crater from under a forest canopy - something a bit more difficult.

Things like:

1. How you can grab people who are climbing the same place as you without the need for an action (so even if its out of your turn, and without even needing a reflex save!).
2. How you can turn everyone into you best buddies ever with diplomacy. (Hitting a DC of 50 isn't that hard even before epic, epic just makes it not need work at all, and allows you to become a god by converting everyone into fanatics that worship you. Better god for a day per charisma than never god at all)
3. How only forgers can spot a forgery (Forgery is a resisted roll by a forgery check), so you can fake the king's seal and the king himself would be none the wiser.
4. How you can strip someone naked, in less than 6 seconds? (Sleight of Hand rules). That has a fixed DC 20 to happen, and the oponent gets a spot check to notice you are picking them clean, not to stop you. So even if they see you, you continue your dire work, strip them naked, and just need to run away. (After at most rolling initiative, might want to see about just droping the enemy pants, that might count as entangling them...)

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Originally Posted by erikun

You do not need to make a spot check for something out in the open; plainly visible objects, especially light sources, are automatically seen.

Your required spot check is better for spotting, say, a specific lunar crater from under a forest canopy - something a bit more difficult.

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The moon isn't a light source. Plus:

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Originally Posted by srd

Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

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plus

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Originally Posted by srd

Per 10 feet of distance -1

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Originally Posted by Necroticplague

The moon isn't a light source. Plus:

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:smallconfused: Thats just a technicality. For all intents and purposes, it is a light source, even if it is just reflected light.

Also:

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The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding

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Bolded for emphasis.

About spot: Huh, never noticed that clause.

About SoH: The DC 20 check carries a -20 penalty, to be precise, and, well...look up the Lightning Thief/Air Goblin Express stuff on this site.

The moon counts as a colossal+++++++++++++++++... object (rules for larger than colossal objects from draconium) so the bonus from it's spot and penalty for distance largely cancel.

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Originally Posted by Necroticplague

The moon isn't a light source. Plus:

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Originally Posted by srd

Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

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plus

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Originally Posted by srd

Per 10 feet of distance -1

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If we wish to get all technical and rules-lawyer-y, such penalities only apply to spot checks made to determine distance at the beginning of an encounter. SRD formatting isn't technically RAW-legal, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, and the penality is not mentioned anywhere else.

[Edit] You can also say the moon is an object without a dexterity score, and thus automatically fails all dex-based skill checks... such as a hide check. Unless there is something blocking line-of-sight, any spot check result will end up succeeding.

Also, where are you getting the idea that the moon isn't a light source? If you are basing it off the list of light sources, then that would mean the sun isn't a light source either. If you are basing it off common sense, then of course it is.

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Originally Posted by erikun

Also, where are you getting the idea that the moon isn't a light source? If you are basing it off the list of light sources, then that would mean the sun isn't a light source either. If you are basing it off common sense, then of course it is.

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I have no clue what list of light sources you are referring to, but I'm applying real world logic here:

The moon reflects light, not generate it, thus it is a light source in the same way that a mirror is.

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Originally Posted by Airanath

Things like:

1. How you can grab people who are climbing the same place as you without the need for an action (so even if its out of your turn, and without even needing a reflex save!).
2. How you can turn everyone into you best buddies ever with diplomacy. (Hitting a DC of 50 isn't that hard even before epic, epic just makes it not need work at all, and allows you to become a god by converting everyone into fanatics that worship you. Better god for a day per charisma than never god at all)
3. How only forgers can spot a forgery (Forgery is a resisted roll by a forgery check), so you can fake the king's seal and the king himself would be none the wiser.
4. How you can strip someone naked, in less than 6 seconds? (Sleight of Hand rules). That has a fixed DC 20 to happen, and the oponent gets a spot check to notice you are picking them clean, not to stop you. So even if they see you, you continue your dire work, strip them naked, and just need to run away. (After at most rolling initiative, might want to see about just droping the enemy pants, that might count as entangling them...)

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.... I don't know what you're trying to say with the first one, and I know the second is true, but I want to ask about the other one....

1. Forgery is not a trained-only skill. The king himself might not be able to tell the difference, but one of his trained sages or a high int court-wizard might.
2. ... Hoooooow? Yes, you can make sleight of hand checks at DC 40 as a free action, but you can only take 'small objects' from a person, not their clothing or weapons.

Spot checks, they make very little sense with a -1 every 10ft rule. I have a DM who sticks to that pretty close. Longbow has a range increment of 110ft, or a -11 spot check. Who's making that at low level? I have a total of a 14 before roll for spot but things that are 340 ft away are invisible to me if they would normally be a DC 0 to spot.

In real life, I need glasses or contacts to see clearly , but I can still make out people walking along a path at a thousand feet, even if I can't see what they look like.

That's always really bugged me about the system and why I don't use the -1 for every 10 ft rule when I run game.

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Originally Posted by Crasical

.... I don't know what you're trying to say with the first one, and I know the second is true, but I want to ask about the other one....

1. Forgery is not a trained-only skill. The king himself might not be able to tell the difference, but one of his trained sages or a high int court-wizard might.
2. ... Hoooooow? Yes, you can make sleight of hand checks at DC 40 as a free action, but you can only take 'small objects' from a person, not their clothing or weapons.

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The weapons might be a bit tricky, but you could take armor from them a link/piece at a time, and anything made of cloth a thread at a time. Granted, that does make it difficult for you to use for your own purposes, so might not want to do it to enemy loot...

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Originally Posted by Sucrose

The weapons might be a bit tricky, but you could take armor from them a link/piece at a time, and anything made of cloth a thread at a time. Granted, that does make it difficult for you to use for your own purposes, so might not want to do it to enemy loot...

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I'm pretty sure the Sleight of Hand skill does not give you free reign to dismantle another persons equipment piece by piece.

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Originally Posted by panaikhan

This came up in the last session.
My Warforged Juggernaut wanted to jump a gap. A 5-foot gap.
Simple, isn't it?
No.

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As others have mentioned, this seems completely reasonable. I want to add one anecdote to point out that this does make sense from a simulationist perspective, at least.

An elephant can not jump a 5 foot gap. In fact, and elephant can't jump a ONE foot gap. Elephants, it turns out, can't jump at all. They are incapable of getting all their limbs off the ground at the same time.

As for weird skill things, my personal favorite is how large a variance there is in the physical skills. A commoner is running away from a zombie, and tries to make a long jump to clear a pit (as far as he can, because he doesn't know how wide the pit is). He will sometimes jump as far as 20 feet, and sometimes will jump only a single foot. Have you ever tried to jump only 1 foot while running? It's bloody hard!

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Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye

I'm pretty sure the Sleight of Hand skill does not give you free reign to dismantle another persons equipment piece by piece.

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Probably wouldn't be permitted as a reasonable extrapolation by a DM, but I'd say that it's a possible reading of the rules. Was mostly joking in any case, given that this thread's all about stupid ideas involving skills.:smalltongue:

By RAW, most farmers won't have enough ranks in Knowledge: Nature to have any idea what those large mooing creatures on their farm are.

Just remembered my favourite one: Wolves can't survive in the wild

It's a DC 10 Survival check to get along in the wild, +2 for each additional character. A wolf with 4 cubs will have to make a DC 18 Survival check each day. In which she is unlikely to succeed, since wolves only have +1 Survival.

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Originally Posted by Salanmander

An elephant can not jump a 5 foot gap. In fact, and elephant can't jump a ONE foot gap. Elephants, it turns out, can't jump at all. They are incapable of getting all their limbs off the ground at the same time.

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That's an entirely different issue. The way elephant legs are shaped preclude them from making proper jumps. A Warforged Juggernaut can jump just fine, he's just heavy and unwieldy.

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Just remembered my favourite one: Wolves can't survive in the wild

It's a DC 10 Survival check to get along in the wild, +2 for each additional character. A wolf with 4 cubs will have to make a DC 18 Survival check each day. In which she is unlikely to succeed, since wolves only have +1 Survival.

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Wolves hunt in packs. For the Aid Another bonus. Specifically, both mates hunt for half their litter, 8 mated wolves with four litters and two older wolves that can still hunt means 8 checks with 9 aid anothers each; an average of five of those will work, giving a +10 to the check, which at DC 14 is not all that difficult.

And Now You Know!

The next question is, what about foxes?

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Just remembered my favourite one: Wolves can't survive in the wild

It's a DC 10 Survival check to get along in the wild, +2 for each additional character. A wolf with 4 cubs will have to make a DC 18 Survival check each day. In which she is unlikely to succeed, since wolves only have +1 Survival.

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A survival check isn't the only means of survival in the wild. A wolf can wander around, find something, hunt it and bring it back to its cubs easily enough without using the skill. The skill is there for streamlining.

Likewise, you don't need a Profession skill to earn money in a job. It's there for quickening otherwise boring and mundane parts of the game.

Let's not forget about using Knowledge checks to predict the future!

Skill Focus (Speak Language) is more of an odd feat, but is skill related, so may qualify.

Forget farmers not being able to identify their herds - Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

Survival Check DC 60 - Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks.

That's directly from the SRD. That's right, you've got to be epic to go "hmm, that looks like a bear track".

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Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

Survival Check DC 60 - Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks.

That's directly from the SRD. That's right, you've got to be epic to go "hmm, that looks like a bear track".

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Actually, with a DC 60 you know it was a black bear. Not a brown bear, not a dire bear, not an owlbear. A black bear.
60 is still very high, though.

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Originally Posted by CTrees

Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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Can I sig this?