Stalker - ToB Skillmonkey base class

Since I really enjoy ToB, but very dissapointed in how Complete Scoundrel updated the Rogue, I decided to make a ToB skillmonkey. It's based on the Scout, although I used the Rogue sneak attack since I wasn't all too thrilled with the Skirmish ability of the Scout. Tossed in a couple of abilities rather than bonus feats.


I come and I go as I please, as silent and unseen as a wraith. I track down my foes, no matter how cold the trail. I see through your petty ambushes, and set my own. I am the blade in the dark, I am the predator that stalks you, I am Death incarnate. I am a Stalker.

Stalker HD: d6
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Man. Known|Man. Readied|# Stances
1|+0|+0|+2|+0|Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6|3|3|1
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Uncanny Dodge, Track|4|3|1
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement +10'; Trackless Step|5|3|1
4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Battle Readiness, SA d6|5|4|2
5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Evasion|6|4|2
6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Flawless Stride; Improved Uncanny Dodge|6|4|2
7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Sneak Attack 3d6|7|4|2
8th|+6|+2|+6|+2|Camoflage; Skill Mastery|7|4|2
9th|+6|+3|+6|+3|Blindsense 30'|8|4|2
10th|+7|+3|+7|+3|Sneak Attack 4d6|8|5|3
11th|+8|+4|+7|+4|Swift Tracker, Fast Movement +20'|9|5|3
12th|+9|+4|+8|+4|Improved Evasion|9|5|3
13th|+9|+4|+8|+4|Sneak Attack 5d6|10|5|3
14th|+10|+5|+9|+5|Hide in Plain Sight (Shadow)|10|5|3
15th|+11|+5|+9|+5|Opportunist|11|6|3
16th|+12|+5|+10|+5|Sneak Attack 6d6|11|6|4
17th|+12|+6|+10|+6|Heightened Awareness|12|6|4
18th|+13|+6|+11|+6|Free Movement|12|6|4
19th|+14|+6|+11|+6|Sneak Attack 7d6|13|6|4
20th|+15|+7|+12|+7|Blindsight 30'|13|7|4
[/table]

Class Skills (8+Int mod): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering, Dungeoneering, Geography, Local, Nature) (Int); Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Locks (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (N/A), spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Class Features

Weapons and Armor Proficencies
Stalkers are proficent in all simple, and melee martial weapons, Light armor, and no shields.
Maneuvers, Maneuvers readied, and Stances Known As per Warblade, only the disciplines they get access to are: Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. Everything else is identical to Warblade, including recovery method.
Trapfinding As per Rogue ability of the same name
Sneak Attack As per Rogue ability of the same name, although slower progression
Uncanny Dodge As per Rogue ability
Track Gains Track as a bonus feat
Fast Movement As per Scout ability of the same name
Trackless Step As per Scout ability of the same name
Battle Readiness A Stalker gains his Int bonus to Initiative checks
Evasion As per Scout ability
Flawless Stride As per Scout ability
Camoflage As per Ranger ability of the same name
Skill Mastery A Stalker chooses 3+int mod skills. He may now take 10 on those skills in any circumstance
Blindsense 301 As per Scout ability
Swift Tracker As per Ranger ability
Hide in Plain Sight As per ShadowDancer ability
Opportunist As per Rogue special ability
Free Movement As per Scout ability
Heightened Awareness A Stalker passing within 5' of a secret or concealed door or trap is entitled to a Search check just as though he were actively searching for it.
Blindsight 30' As Scout ability

This is pretty good. The one thing I noticed is Desert Wind...I don't know, it just doesn't jive well with the rest of it in my opinion. I think Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind fits better, and having less schools than other classes could also serve as a balancing factor.

Yikes. I'm sorry to say that's about the most overpowered thing I've seen on this Forum in months.

Rogue already isn't a bad class; in fact, its only *real* problem is monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack if Penetrating Strike & co. aren't available. Which you didn't do anything about, as far as I noticed.

So you take this ok class, and add full Warblade maneuver progression to it??? Because I don't think the limits you put on Discipline access help. Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind are some of the best disciplines. I don't think this guy will miss Iron Heart and White Raven too much.

Maybe maneuver progression as a Warblade of half your level wouldn't be too overpowered. (Even then, I'm not sure Diamond Mind fits in, flavor-wise, nor does some of the Desert Wind stuff. I'd be tempted to say only Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand, and maybe the non-[Su] Desert Wind stuff.)

At least you did get rid of UMD, which is half the power of an optimized standard rogue.

Desert Wind I put in because it's all about speed, but easily removable.

Diamond Mind just to throw the poor fellah a bone. I mean, yea Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw are pretty strong, but only two disciplines to choose from?

Now then, this was based more on Scout than Rogue. It doesn't have any 'party face' ability, and it's abilities are tuned more to infiltration and precision-based damage.

I deliberately did nothing aobut the weakness of precision-based damage, otherwise it would have been way overpowered. As it is, it's a little behind any of the other ToB classes, but a bit better in utility, which is about where I want it to be. Furthermore, without UMD, they can't cover that weakness nearly as easily as a Rogue can.

And before you go "OMG It's a ROGUE WITH WARBLADE INITIATION!!!" again, remember that Warblade initiation is the WORST of all three classes, which is why I chose it. 13 maneuvers known and only 7 active at any given time is CRAP. The Warblade gets away with it by also being a FULL BAB and having a LOT of other very useful stuff (like Int to Reflex saves).

So, let me ask you, if you think it is so overpowered, why do you think this class is any more powerful than any of the ToB classes? By my figuring, any of the ToB classes could curb-stomp it fairly easily, since it has almost no way to avoid damage.

I'd halve the sneak attack progression AND halve the initiator level progression. Then I'd give it access to all nine schools.

Really, what are you going for here? If you keep full sneak attack progression, you can't give it much more than the rogue already has without making it rediculously overpowered. If one hand giveth abilities, the other must take away sneak attack (or skill points, but this is supposed to be a skillmonkey... I guess you could drop the HD like a rock to d4's?)

But, seriously, this is a rogue a scout and a warblade in the same class. O_O :smalleek:

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

stuff

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lol no, Warblade is the second best, with Swordsages being the worst.

Also, your Stalker lacks Plagarize and Preserve. And that's a sin.

RO jokes aside, this looks like fairly awesome.

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Originally Posted by Thrawn183

I'd halve the sneak attack progression AND halve the initiator level progression. Then I'd give it access to all nine schools.

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Now that WOULD be overpowered...

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Really, what are you going for here? If you keep full sneak attack progression, you can't give it much more than the rogue already has without making it rediculously overpowered. If one hand giveth abilities, the other must take away sneak attack (or skill points, but this is supposed to be a skillmonkey... I guess you could drop the HD like a rock to d4's?)

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Basically, I'm trying to make a ToB 'skillmonkey' class. It's supposed to be on par with other Initiator classes, which already punk all 'base' melee classes. Compare, if you will, Fighter vs Warblade.

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But, seriously, this is a rogue a scout and a warblade in the same class. O_O :smalleek:

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No, it is not. It does not have access to Iron Heart Cheeze, or Tombstone Strike, or many of the other things that Warblades get most of their power out of. It does NOT get UMD, which is a staple Rogue cheeze skill.

Is it more powerful than straight rogue? Other than UMD cheeze to be a 'Batman Wizard lite', yes. It's supposed to be. It's supposed to keep up with ToB classes, which are considerabally more powerful than base classes.

However, I have removed Diamond Mind and Desert Wind, in an attempt to balance it. It only has TWO disciplines to initiate from: Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, the least of any base ToB class. It doesn't have any disciplines unique to it either. I've also reduced HD to d6

I'd lower the SA progression to 6d6, maybe 8d6 maximum, just because Shadow Hand has Assassin's Stance, and several maneuvers that do huge damage to flat-footed creatures already. I'd also raise the hit dice back to d8 though. If you're expected to be fighting things with melee weapons you should have d8 hit dice minimum end of story.

Battle Cunning doesn't seem particularly necessary either considering you have Sneak Attack. I'd replace it with Improved Evasion.

Oh, and go ahead and give it some more skills. Not sure exactly what, the face stuff that you took out doesn't make so much thematic sense, but maybe you can put them back if you just rename/reflavor the class a little. Bluff at the very least certainly seems like a good idea. As does maybe Knowledge (any), Decipher Script, Forgery, those kinds of things. Oh, and you left out Disable Device. Put that back in.

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Originally Posted by Ziegander

I'd lower the SA progression to 6d6, maybe 8d6 maximum, just because Shadow Hand has Assassin's Stance, and several maneuvers that do huge damage to flat-footed creatures already. I'd also raise the hit dice back to d8 though. If you're expected to be fighting things with melee weapons you should have d8 hit dice minimum end of story.

Battle Cunning doesn't seem particularly necessary either considering you have Sneak Attack. I'd replace it with Improved Evasion.

Oh, and go ahead and give it some more skills. Not sure exactly what, the face stuff that you took out doesn't make so much thematic sense, but maybe you can put them back if you just rename/reflavor the class a little. Bluff at the very least certainly seems like a good idea. As does maybe Knowledge (any), Decipher Script, Forgery, those kinds of things. Oh, and you left out Disable Device. Put that back in.

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Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Yea, I forgot Open Lock and Disable Device as well as Bluff and a couple of others. UMD is specifically going the way of the dodo, it's really not thematic, and horridly broken as it is. I also added in a few more 'skillmonkey' skills. Diplomacy didn't make the cut, but Intimidate and Bluff did, as well as Disguise, a few more Knowledge skills (although Arcane, Religion, and The Planes are specifically excluded... they don't really need to know or care about an of the above).

Get rid of the Battle Cunning and Battle Opportunist (maybe replace Battle Opportunist with Opportunist rogue ability?), I put them in because they looked thematic for this kind of build. Scaled back Sneak Attack to 1/3 rather than 1/2 (total of 7d6 at level 19). Shifted around a couple of abilities to cover gaps so every level gives some kind of contribution

I dunno about bumping the HD back up to 8, the Rogue works well as a D6 class, and I'm kind of wanting to make it a little easy to smish as a balancing factor (a melee version of a 'glass cannon'), but I can bring it back up if necessary.

I'm thinking of giving them back Diamond Mind, so they can have something else to do if they can't get flanking buddies in place.

When I first looked at this, it shrieked overpowered. However, I reconsidered a bit. Look at the class features, compare them to the warblade (or maybe swordsage, but warblade is easier)

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

Stalker HD: d6
1 Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 vs Battle clarity (Reflex saves), weapon aptitude
2nd Uncanny Dodge, Track vs Uncanny dodge
3rd Fast Movement +10'; Trackless Step vs Battle ardor (critical confirmation)
4th Battle Readiness, SA 2d6
5th Evasion vs Bonus feat
6th Flawless Stride; Improved Uncanny Dodge vs Improved uncanny dodge
7th Sneak Attack 3d6 vs Battle cunning (damage)
8th Camoflage; Skill Mastery
9th Blindsense 30' vs Bonus feat
10th Sneak Attack 4d6
11th Swift Tracker, Fast Movement +20' vs Battle skill (opposed checks)
12th Improved Evasion
13th Sneak Attack 5d6 vs Bonus feat
14th Hide in Plain Sight (Shadow)
15th Opportunist vs Battle mastery (attacks of opportunity)
16th Sneak Attack 6d6
17th Heightened Awareness vs Bonus feat
18th Free Movement
19th Sneak Attack 7d6
20th Blindsight 30', Stance Mastery vs Stance Mastery
[/table]

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That is a lot of class features. Now, what does the warblade have instead? Well, I compared. Cancel....

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1 Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 vs Battle clarity (Reflex saves), weapon aptitude
2nd Track
3rd Fast Movement +10'; Trackless Step vs Battle ardor (critical confirmation)
4th Battle Readiness, SA 2d6
5th Evasion vs Bonus feat
6th Flawless Stride
7th Sneak Attack 3d6 vs Battle cunning (damage)
8th Camoflage; Skill Mastery
9th Blindsense 30' vs Bonus feat
10th Sneak Attack 4d6
11th Swift Tracker, Fast Movement +20' vs Battle skill (opposed checks)
12th Improved Evasion
13th Sneak Attack 5d6 vs Bonus feat
14th Hide in Plain Sight (Shadow)
15th Opportunist vs Battle mastery (attacks of opportunity)
16th Sneak Attack 6d6
17th Heightened Awareness vs Bonus feat
18th Free Movement
19th Sneak Attack 7d6
20th Blindsight 30'

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Still a lot. Now, what is equivalent to what?
Battle Cunning is effectively sneak attack, but only INT damage. This varies a bit, let's say it's worth 2d6 sneak attack at later levels, 1d6 until level 16 or so. A bonus feat from the limited list is rather useless, but is similar to track, and heightened awareness. Probably close to battle readiness.
Weapon aptitude isn't worth much. Battle Mastery is about the same, almost better than opportunist. Say battle clarity is close to evening reflex saves, and battle ardor 1d6 sneak attack. Say battle skill is similar to swift tracker, flawless stride, and trackless step, because neither is that useful...
Cancel again.

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1st Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd
3rd Fast Movement +10';
4th
5th Evasion
6th
7th
8th Camoflage; Skill Mastery
9th Blindsense 30'
10th Sneak Attack 2d6
11th Fast Movement +20'
12th Improved Evasion
13th Sneak Attack 3d6
14th Hide in Plain Sight (Shadow)
15th
16th Sneak Attack 3d6
17th vs Bonus feat
18th Free Movement
19th Sneak Attack 4d6
20th Blindsight 30'

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Ok, so basic damage is ahead by a few d6, which improve later. Evasion, Free Movement, Hide In Plain Sight, Camoflage, Skill mastery, fast movement 20, blindsense/sight, and improved evasion, as well as trapfinding.

What does the warblade have in return? A better fortitude save, 3 hp/hd, a bonus feat, better armor, Full BAB and maneuvers. Hmmm.

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Class Skills (8+Int mod): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering, Dungeoneering, Geography, Local, Nature) (Int); Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Locks (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (N/A), spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

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Ok, compared to the warblade's 4, 8+int is much better. Nice skill list, like a rogue. No UMD, which is good.

Ok, so.

4 skill points per level + Evasion + improved evasion + Free Movement + 20 ft speed + HiPS + camoflage + blindsense + blindsight + skill mastery + 4d6 sneak attack + trapfinding + Shadow Hand school

vs better BAB, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, White Raven, Iron Heart, better fort save, 3 hp/hd, better armor and a bonus feat.

Hm. Let's mentally cancel some stuff again. HP and armor are probably worth evasion and improved evasion, and let's say trapfinding. Diamond mind is easily as good as shadow hand. A bonus feat is worth.... um. Not much. BAB is worth skill points, maybe 3d6 sneak attack.
This puts the Stalker with Free Movement, 20 ft speed boost, HiPS, camoflage, blindsense and sight, skill mastery, and 1d6 sneak attack.

This is a good fragment of the scout's role, and pretty worthwhile. However, the warblade still has 3 more schools of very potent maneuvers. Cheese like WRT and IHS aside, those schools are probably worth some hiding, sensing (hearing the air, anyone?), damage, speed, and skill power. However, free movement is pretty darn potent, and I think it might be OK gone.

My main beef, however, is Stance Mastery. With two schools, this isn't really appropriate, nor is it good. Losing Stance Mastery would make the Stalker a bit more unique, and not a rip of many class features. I might also provide some more defensive abilities against melee attack. Note that my comparison probably slid a bit in the Stalker's favor, you could stand to lose some more class features.

Drop Stance mastery, and the sneak attack to say 1d6 at level 3, 1/3 levels after. Mayybe Free Movement. Add a unique capstone, and if you drop free movement, and the capstone isn't too good, maybe throw diamond mind back in. However, I don't want to be responsible for Assassin's Stance'd TWF full attack, Raging Mongoose, TIME STANDS STILL, Sneak Attack.

Also, you have no stat foci. Which statistics should this class use? I suppose it is NAD, non-attribute dependant, which is cool.

Actually, I just realised I may have underestimated the weakness of d6 hd. Oh well.

Definitely lose Stance Mastery as it's unnecessary, glad to see you got rid of Weapon Aptitude as well, don't know why that was ever there. And definitely Opportunist rather than Combat Mastery. I still think it should have d8 HD, but maybe if you do that you should lower the skill points to 6 per level. Tough call, and an easy enough thing to houserule if I ever used the class. Looks good to me.

Okay, Stance Mastery is out.

Also, when looking at balance, remember that the Warblade effectively has two out of three 'good' saves, because he gets Int to Reflex saves.

I was thinking the bigger problem with Diamond Mind was the string of strikes that make a Concentration check to make opponent flat-footed for the attack.

The assassin's stance/raging mongoose/time stands still thing only works if his opponent is either flat-footed or is already properly flanked, otherwise he'll have to use Island of Blades and some tumbling. And starting your turn next to an opponent is not really where you want to be, for the same reason Rogues very rarely ever get off their full TWF sneak attack progression that everyone talks about... they all too often are too dead when the monsters close.

Also, while this class CAN use Pouncing Strike/Raging Mongoose to close and dish out some impressive damage first-round, he's likely going to be dead second round if he does so. It's good for taking out single guards, but not so much as general combat tactics.

I'd be tempted to give them Setting Sun to give them some survivability, but honestly, I think that would be too overpowered, covering their one achelies heel. Mind you, he could choose to spend a feat on it, but then that's a feat, which is worth quite a bit to this class, as he has a lot of feats he's probably going to want.

Stat reliability really depends on the Stalker.

Charisma is still useful to them for Bluff and Intimidate, but not absolutely vital
Int is going to be a 'main stat' for this class, as with any other skillmonkey
Wis is going to need to be at least even, because they already have a poor will save and no way to back it up (no slippery mind that rogues get)
Con... well, duh, it's going to need to be at least average. Even worse, they're a d6 HD melee class, so more HPS the better. A Con of 16 will, on average, DOUBLE their hit points.
Dex will be THE main stat for the class. Most of their skills plus most of their AC will likely come from Dex. Furthermore, with feats like Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, Str can be a dump stat if necessary, but it is expensive in terms of feats
Str can be a dump stat, but it is expensive to do so, that's two of your six feats to make up for it.

So Dex is #1, with Int and Con behind it, Cha and Wis and maybe Str behind that

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

So, let me ask you, if you think it is so overpowered, why do you think this class is any more powerful than any of the ToB classes?

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Short easy answer: Sneak Attack.

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By my figuring, any of the ToB classes could curb-stomp it fairly easily, since it has almost no way to avoid damage.

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Hmmm, it would come down to "whoever wins initiative, wins." Which isn't good class design, even if it's good balance. No fun.

Or do you think any Swordsages or Warblades could survive after this guy hits them with a maneuver-enhanced full attack, plus Sneak Attacks? Even Crusaders would be hard-pressed.

... That said, you've definitely improved the situation, taking away some of the available disciplines and some of the less-thematic-to-this-class Warblade abilities.

I'd still urge you to slow down the Sneak Attack progression somewhat, especially in light of Assassin's Stance (as others have pointed out). In return, I suppose you could add Diamond Mind back in, or put HP back to d8, or something.

He did reduce the Sneak Attack progression.

Also, I wonder what you mean by "maneuver-enhanced full attack..."

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Originally Posted by Ziegander

He did reduce the Sneak Attack progression.

Also, I wonder what you mean by "maneuver-enhanced full attack..."

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Oh. I responded to his question to me without carefully reading everything after that.

And I meant a Raging Mongoose Pouncing Charge. Or whatever else you want to imagine up.

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Originally Posted by Draz74

Oh. I responded to his question to me without carefully reading everything after that.

And I meant a Raging Mongoose Pouncing Charge. Or whatever else you want to imagine up.

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Stalker: RRRAWWWWW pouncing charge boosted with raging mongoose from concealment to get a full sneak attack!

vs Swordsage: Fool's Strike. Kill yourself. Shifting Defense, I move 5 feet away so that even if you don't manage to kill yourself, you won't get the rest of the attack progression against me.Now let's see how you like your own medicine: Time Stands Still boosted with Raging mongoose.

Alternately, if he's more into shadow hand himself: Child of Shadow: I have Concealment, thus immune to sneak attack. Proceed to curb stomp.

vs Crusader: Steely Resolve. Go ahead, I can take a full round of attacks from you, assuming anything hits with my insane AC and your 3/4 BAB, since I don't rely on Dex for AC anyways. Now then, Furious Counterstrike. Good bye.

vs Warblade: Uncanny Dodge, I'm not flat footed. Improved Uncanny Dodge, even if I was flat footed, you still couldn't sneak attack me. Proceed to curb-stomp.

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Originally Posted by Draz74

Oh. I responded to his question to me without carefully reading everything after that.

And I meant a Raging Mongoose Pouncing Charge. Or whatever else you want to imagine up.

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Plus, you can't even do that until 15th level? Please, by that time there's much more efficient ways to kill 1 guy.