The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

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Originally Posted by DragoonWraith

Maybe make two related disciplines, one pro-undead, the other anti-undead, but make them accept each other as pre-requisites? Might work.

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That's actually kind of the idea I was thinking of. And since the two disciplines are related, it could be encompassed by the name Fearful Symmetry. If it was all still one discipline, you could always state that one or the other path must be chosen, with maybe a stance or two (like Cross The Bridge) actually overlapping the two, but all strikes, boosts or counters, and likely most (if not all) stances as well being barred to a practitioner of the other side. That means, of course, that there would be two 9th-level strikes, as opposed to one, but only one would ever be chosen, depending on your position regarding undeath.

Actually, if it was all still one discipline, Fearful Symmetry would work just fine as a name, as it sums up what JoshuaZ was trying to express, to my knowledge.

No, I like the idea of someone having both abilities - but if the discipline is twice as large, it should probably be 'worth' two disciplines, and if it's 'worth' two disciplines, someone might just want the thematic half, which would mean having two disciplines might work better.

Well, either/or, as long as both sides of the pro/anti-undead dichotomy get their due in some fashion. As it stands, the discipline is probably too large to be considered a single discipline, yet probably not quite enough for two in their own right. There are obvious gaps in the maneuver list at certain levels for both sides, largely for the anti-undead maneuvers; the pro-undead 9th-level maneuver would obviously need to be created, to be the rival of the competing discipline's Final Rest, among others.

So, are we all in agreement, then?

Since an anti-undead discipline is my personal choice I've decided to show only the maneuvers and stances that would work to that effect, to show us what would need to be added to make this half of these two disciplines complete. Obviously, at certain levels, including first and eighth, there needs to be some content added. Also, you may note revisionary caveats (in parentheses) for a couple strikes and stances. Since these are ones that sit on the fence, they could probably be split up into two separate ones.

1st Level

Peaceful End: Strike- deals extra damage against undead and deathless targets. (Only against undead; deathless are powered by positive energy)
Soulshield: Stance- protects against effects from undead and death effects.
Avoid Death's Touch: Stance-Gives a 20% miss chance against attacks from undead as long as you moved at least 5 feet in the previous round.

2nd Level

Disrupt Necromantic Power: Strike- deals 2d6 extra damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells. (Once again, deathless are powered by positive energy and not subject to this if revised)
Walk the Narrow Bridge: Stance- You are effected less by both negative and positive energy. (Less affected by negative energy only)
Channel the Power: Stance - Allies ability to rebuke or turn undead are improved. (Only for turning)
Blind the Dead: Strike- Undead subject to this strike are unable to see you.
Burn the Dead: Strike-Targets take extra fire damage and undead with light vulnerability take further damage.

3rd Level

Strength of Life: Boost- Gain 1d10 temporary hit points +1 per an initiator level.
See Those who Have Yet to Die: Stance-Duplicates the Deathwatch spell.
Turning Strike: Strike-Target is subject to a turn undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level.

4th level

Momento Vixisti: Strike- Target undeas takes various penalties as it recalls life.
Guardian of the Dead Stance- it becomes harder to rebuke or turn allied undead and non-allied undead have trouble creating spawn within 100 feet of you. (The interference with spawning would work on its own, since no undead hunter willingly allies with undead)
Disrupt the Flow Strike-Undead struck have their effective hit die for turning and rebuking purposes reduced by a function of a knowledge(religion) check. (Obviously for both, but not many undead hunters rebuke the undead)
Shared Souls Stance- You and designated allies do not fail saves unless all of you fail the saves.
Stand Against Death Counter- you substitute a knowledge religion check for a save against an undead being.

5th level

Even the Dead Fear Death: Strike- Undead take 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level and must make a will save or be panicked.
Preserve the Soul: Stance- Duplicates the effects of the Death Ward spell.

6th level

Slash the Spirit Strike- Deals extra damage against incorporeal undead and ignores the miss chance against incorporeal beings.
Reflect Death: Counter- Reflects back against foe any death effects you are subject to.

7th level

Return to the Grave: Stance- Allows you to make critical hits against undead.
Rebuke the Controller: Strike- Deals 6d6 damage to an undead being and deals extra damage to anyone controlling it.

8th level

No known anti-undead maneuvers or stances here.

9th level

Final Rest Strike- You deal 15d6 extra damage and undead must make a will save or be destroyed.

Anyway, for an anti-undead discipline, that's a good start.

Uhhh.... I was making suggestions for JoshuaZ. The author. Who, as far as I've seen, hasn't agreed to any particular changes as of yet. I think you ought to wait for his opinion before going ahead and doing it yourself.

Dude, that's who I am waiting on. I'm just here to offer suggestions and feeback. After all, this is his discipline, not mine. But in the case he does one or the other, I just felt like tossing out ideas one where he could start.

Sorry about the late reply. I exist but have intermittent internet access at the moment. These remarks may not be as organized as I'd like.

There's a lot of different advice being given here, not all of which is in a single direction, so I'm not quite sure what to do. I've taken out the Bloody Wound maneuver from level 1 full out since I don't think it fits that well, and I agree that reducing the number of maneuvers may be a good idea. However, I agree with Dracodei that substantially removing some maneuvers would probably damage the flavor a lot. The idea of the 2-1 swap seems interesting, but I don't think the discipline is that valuable to make people pay that much, and the result would likely be no one taking the discipline at all.

I don't think there are enough maneuvers to split into two separate disciplines, and I'd be very worried that a discipline that was completely anti-undead would be too narrow focus for a discipline. A crusader for example would probably never take such a discipline. I'm also not sure there's any actual balance issue with having a discipline that has a lot of maneuvers as long as the maneuvers themselves aren't very general.

If maneuvers are going to be removed, Avoid Death's Touch at level 1 by the logic given by Danzig seems like a good candidate to remove since as Danzig points out there's already a stance at that level which is anti-undead.

All Things Come To An End fits in with a general theme of death, but possibly only in a tenuous fashion (seeing the end of spells as part of inevitable end of all things may be pushing it).

The point that Channel the Power is very narrow in purpose seems like a very relevant one also.

I'm not such a fan of Danzig's attempt to break off a separate anti-undead discipline. First, I think it will be too focused for most campaigns: a specialized discipline is ok if it has substantial uses outside the immediate narrow context. Second, the changes seem to push too much to a very one-sided view of how an undead hunter might interact with the walking dead and with those who use the darker side of things. See or example the remark about modifying Channel the Power to only alter turning but not rebuking. Thus, for example, a dread necromancer who fights against evil undead even as they care about their own somewhat self-centered goals would strike me as a perfectly reasonable character who should benefit from this sort of thing. If Danzig or others want to use this discipline as a starting point to spin off an anti-undead discipline by all means feel free to use the material and modify it as you see it.

Regarding the doing of vile damage as undead flesh formation, yes I know it is rare, but there's a whole line of 10 spells and a feat in Libris Mortis that focus on this (the necrotic cyst line), and there's some other official stuff that uses it. I prefer keeping The Flesh Still Lives as it amounts to a low level version of the later The Flesh Crawls maneuver.

Right now, what I'm leaning towards is the following, removing a small number of maneuvers, and possibly adding a single anti-undead strike at 8th level (although I don't have an obvious idea about what that should be).

Maneuvers to be removed: Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End

Maneuvers to consider removing: Channel the Power, Embrace the Wraith, Chill of Death.

Another option would be to combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge into a single third level stance rather than two second level stances and will also deal with the very narrow purpose issue of Channel the Power.

If I remove "Chill of Death" I think I may increase the hit die for "Screams of the Dying" and move that up to 6th level so there's at least one strike at that level which isn't focused on harming undead. I'm a bit partial to the idea of a maneuver that does sonic damage from the screams of dead souls, so I'm not that included to remove Screams entirely.

Right now, most reasonable thing seems to be taking out Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End, Chill of Death. Combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge. Make Embrace the Wraith something separate that could only be gained by a special feat. And add an 8th level anti-undead strike whose name and exact details are open to suggestions.

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Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Right now, what I'm leaning towards is the following, removing a small number of maneuvers, and possibly adding a single anti-undead strike at 8th level (although I don't have an obvious idea about what that should be).

Maneuvers to be removed: Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End

Maneuvers to consider removing: Channel the Power, Embrace the Wraith, Chill of Death.

Another option would be to combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge into a single third level stance rather than two second level stances and will also deal with the very narrow purpose issue of Channel the Power.

If I remove "Chill of Death" I think I may increase the hit die for "Screams of the Dying" and move that up to 6th level so there's at least one strike at that level which isn't focused on harming undead. I'm a bit partial to the idea of a maneuver that does sonic damage from the screams of dead souls, so I'm not that included to remove Screams entirely.

Right now, most reasonable thing seems to be taking out Avoid Death's Touch, All Things Come To An End, Chill of Death. Combine Channel the Power and Walk the Narrow Bridge. Make Embrace the Wraith something separate that could only be gained by a special feat. And add an 8th level anti-undead strike whose name and exact details are open to suggestions.

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Truth be told, I rather prefer the positive/negative and pro/anti-undeath dichotomies you have here in this single discipline. So, the removals, combinations, and upgrades you gave the nod to, and the addition at 8th level, they sound fair enough to me.

...Oh yeah, I remember the necrotic cyst spells. I actually own Libris Mortis myself, that's why I remarked that vile damage is more the province of evil spells, rather than exclusively. But I concede your point.

As to what form an 8th-level anti-undead maneuver would take, you'd likely have to examine what you already created and come up with the next logical step. I'm not sure I'm the right guy to ask about this kind of thing. I've never really designed homebrew martial maneuvers; spells are more my kind of thing, especially battle magic. But, I may be able to make a few suggestions after I read over the lower-level content....

...how about this as a possible 8th-level anti-undead maneuver? You do a strike against an undead as normal, and say they take x number of d6s of bonus damage, but then the disruptive energy flashes outward from the target you hit in a small (like maybe 10 feet radius), and does some extra d6s of damage to undead within that radius? It'd make a good area attack for fighting undead clustered in a small area.

We all know if WotC was still making 3.5 material, all 9 schools would have twice as many maneuvers, a stance or 2 at every level, and 3-4 level 9 maneuvers. While a decent guideline to strive for, I don't see why number of maneuvers should be anything to actively worry about.

Just Sayin'

To Pechvarry...So, just what are you getting at? I was trying to give the original author my own personal input. Since WoTC abandoned everything that 3.5 stands for, we have to make do with what hombrewing can do. To that end, if I see something that people say needs help, I do my best to see that it's done.
You don't have to listen to what I say, but please try to be courteous and let the people who have something constructive to say on this thread get the details hammered out.

To JoshuaZ: The concept for the maneuver I posted, I'll write it down as a sample entry and post it, if you want to use it, you can, if you don't that's no problem either.

Danzig, that's an interesting idea. I was thinking of a maneuver that if it destroys an undead destroys all of its spawn and their spawn and so on. But yours might be more practically useable. Adding two maneuvers at 8th level would seem problematic given that we were trying to reduce the total number of maneuvers. Will need to think about this.

As promised, here's the idea I was going for... I'm not so sure about the name, but this is the concept I had.

Disruptive Shockwave
The Narrow Bridge (strike)
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: 3 The Narrow Bridge maneuvers
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: See text

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 8d6 damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is an undead being then it takes +1 additional damage for every hit die it has and +1 per initiator level. This disruptive energy flashes outward from the target in a 10-foot radius burst, dealing 8d6 positive energy damage to any undead caught within the radius. Undead struck in this fashion may make a Fortitude save for half damage.

Of course, this is just a rough outline of it, you can tweak the numbers up or down, like for instance the splash damage radius can be higher (10 feet is a conservative minimum). I got the numbers incidentally from inverting the way Rebuke The Controller's numbers work, and then upped the damage dice by a couple. I didn't know if it was such a good idea to do 10d6 initial damage, as we already have a maneuver of this level that does this, and this does splash damage in addition to the 8d6 + bonus damage.

I got the idea from glancing over the list and noticing that there were no positive energy maneuvers that did damage in a burst, and I thought to myself "Surely someone who uses positive energy in such a fashion might need to fight undead in a tight crowd?", and presto, here it is.

I'm not so sure we'd need another 8th level anti-undead maneuver if we used this, since Fear of The Coming Oblivion can be used against undead, just not to make them afraid.

I like the whole thing about destruction, that, if it works, chains (with individual saves) to all spawn, and all spawn of those(with saves), and all spawn of those(Ditto)... note that Create Undead via a spell or SLA should NOT count as "spawning".

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Originally Posted by DracoDei

I like the whole thing about destruction, that, if it works, chains (with individual saves) to all spawn, and all spawn of those(with saves), and all spawn of those(Ditto)... note that Create Undead via a spell or SLA should NOT count as "spawning".

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Yes, that's exactly how I thought of it, make it only apply to supernatural spawning effects that are not due to class levels (so ghouls, bodaks and vampires get their spawn included but not zombies raised by a vampire).

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Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Yes, that's exactly how I thought of it, make it only apply to supernatural spawning effects that are not due to class levels (so ghouls, bodaks and vampires get their spawn included but not zombies raised by a vampire).

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That sounds like a phenomenal idea too.

...Hey, if I was to nerf the numbers on the one I thought up, could my maneuver work as a lower-than-8th-level maneuver? I really like both our ideas, but yours is probably better for an 8th-level maneuver than mine.

I just think the idea of anti-necrotic splash damage off of a melee strike is too cool to pass up, IMHO.



...Or, here's another idea: You could always fold the chain-destroy effect you are referring to into Final Rest. It's no guarantee that all the target's spawn will be destroyed, obviously, but it could probably rip through a great deal of them, and their spawn in turn, and so on. Maybe with each lower "generation" down the chain, they'd get a bonus on their saves to avoid being destroyed?

...Mull it over and see what you think.

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Originally Posted by Danzig

To Pechvarry...So, just what are you getting at? I was trying to give the original author my own personal input. Since WoTC abandoned everything that 3.5 stands for, we have to make do with what hombrewing can do. To that end, if I see something that people say needs help, I do my best to see that it's done.
You don't have to listen to what I say, but please try to be courteous and let the people who have something constructive to say on this thread get the details hammered out.

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I don't remember trying for discourteous. I appreciate your input as I do my best to read over every martial discipline that floats through these parts (and I've had almost zero luck finding authors willing to revisit their old disciplines for improvement, incidentally). I simply don't see a reason to attempt to split a discipline up. Allow me to translate my above post:

I like where this discipline is, and I agree more work will only make it better. But I don't think saying "we have X number of maneuvers when WotC only used Y" is a good metric for determining when it needs trimmed down.

And, as far as judging my own criticism goes, I believe it to be valid and worth remembering.

Fair enough... I do agree that strictly going by WoTC standards is a load of crap, anyway. For instance, the way they implement rules for legacy weapons is completely kife. Ask me about it sometime, I have a pretty solid houserule regarding that.

As you probably know, this is one of my top 7 favourite martial disciplines (the others being Army of One, Jade Throne, Diamond Mind, Solaris Arcanum, Holy Word, and Anima River), hence the interest in helping shine it up. Also, since I have a character who faces undead all the time, this sort of discipline is right up his alley.

As it stands, I prefer the way JoshuaZ has it as one discipline, with the changes he suggested making. Splitting up the discipline was only a suggestion to be considered as a last resort. But we'll have to see what he says on the matter regarding the maneuver I submitted, and the idea of folding the chain-destroy effect into Final Rest or not.

Pechvarry: Have you looked at the Feline Way in Bhu's "Cat Fan's Unite and PEACH!" thread? I never can find the energy to do the careful full read I think I owe him...

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Originally Posted by DracoDei

Pechvarry: Have you looked at the Feline Way in Bhu's "Cat Fan's Unite and PEACH!" thread? I never can find the energy to do the careful full read I think I owe him...

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OK, all but the cat threads.

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Originally Posted by Pechvarry

OK, all but the cat threads.

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I would count it a favor if you did.
And I am always looking to tweak Falling Anvil.

Ok. Updated most of above as discussed. I haven't yet made up my mind whether to add the area-effect anti-undead, and I still need to work out the details for making Embrace the Wratih either a feat result or an epic stance.

Actually, that looks pretty good as-is.

If you did add an area-effect to anything, maybe that'd be a good side effect of destroying an undead with Final Rest, since Destroy The Source has an interesting secondary effect with the destruction of spawn. It would function only on destruction of the target, and do half the damage that the first target took... Maybe that's where the area effect would work.

Then again, maybe not. But either way, I'm so gonna use your discipline.

By the way, DracoDei, I looked over the Feline Way discipline, and I think it's absolutely perfect for a campaign featuring the Cats of Ulthar. Matter of fact, since Bhu never really gave any fluff for where it came from, I'd be willing to fluff the Feline Way as originating in Ulthar, after the awakening of the cats, and the coronation of the first incarnation of the Prince, who was also a weretiger (non-contagious) and happened to be the founder of said discipline.

Maybe I'll go pay Bhu a visit and see what he thinks.

Bumping. Note that Havvy has helpfully transferred this over to the D&D wiki. Havvy has also suggested weakening two of the maneuvers:

Suggested versions are as follows:

For Live Without Life

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As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this strike hits, you deal an extra 1d6 vile damage and your target must make a fortitude save (DC 11 + your Wisdom modifier). If the target fails, the target may not regain hit points for 1 day per initiator level or until the creature is healed at least 1 hit point magically.

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So reducing the length of time and ending when any magical healing has occurred.

Also, he's suggested a modification for Empower the Dead:

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While under this stance, any undead or deathless created or animated within 30 feet of you that you or an ally creates gains 2 extra hit points. Any undead or deathless that you or an ally within 30 feet summon gains +2 hit points during the duration of the summon effect.

Furthermore, all undead within 30 feet of you gain a +2 bonus to their turn resistance. You may ignore this turn resistance when you turn or rebuke.

When you create or animate an undead, you may roll a Knowledge (religion) check with a DC of 10 + the creature's hit dice. If you succeed, the undead gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength.

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I like this and think that is probably better than the current version. I am however on the fence about modifying Live without Life as he suggested. Input is welcome.

Note that the grammar is modified slightly on the wiki version for most maneuvers. Just one or two words per maneuver though.

I'll start with Live Without Life. Specifically, in the current version, there are three rolls minimum where my change makes it two rolls. Less rolling equals faster gameplay and whatnot. Also, the following part is broken for two reasons.

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Originally Posted by Live Without Life

1 month/initiator level and cannot heal from magical effects unless the caster succeeds on a charisma check of DC your 10 + your initiator level.

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First off, the time is ridiculously long for a first level maneuver. Second, when your initiator level becomes 20, the charisma check DC is 30. This means you need a charisma of 30 just to succeed 1 in 20 times. Third off, how often can the charisma check be made, and what action type does it take?

Also, from level 7 and above, you only offer strikes. Yes, this is a strike heavy discipline, but a few more counters or boosts intermixed would help add some diversity.

Finally, your capstone is weaker than a level 7 and a level 8 strike. In fact, the level 7 strike (Life Is Precious) is stronger than the other two. I'd switch the level and prerequisites of Life Is Precious and Final Rest.

Any changes you want to the wiki copy, notify me (or say that something is officially changed.)

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Originally Posted by Havvy

Note that the grammar is modified slightly on the wiki version for most maneuvers. Just one or two words per maneuver though.

I'll start with Live Without Life. Specifically, in the current version, there are three rolls minimum where my change makes it two rolls. Less rolling equals faster gameplay and whatnot. Also, the following part is broken for two reasons.


First off, the time is ridiculously long for a first level maneuver. Second, when your initiator level becomes 20, the charisma check DC is 30. This means you need a charisma of 30 just to succeed 1 in 20 times. Third off, how often can the charisma check be made, and what action type does it take?

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Hmm, yes. All very good points. I favor your version. So both of those maneuvers should have your modified forms (Also can you point out which maneuvers had the grammar issues so I can go back and modify them here? If there were too many, I'll just change the two maneuvers as above and add a link to the wiki.)

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Also, from level 7 and above, you only offer strikes. Yes, this is a strike heavy discipline, but a few more counters or boosts intermixed would help add some diversity.

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There's been prior issues with people saying that the discipline has a lot of maneuvers in general, I'm slightly worried about adding more maneuvers. I'll consider it (I also don't have any obvious ideas for a thematically appropriate high level counter or boost. If you or anyone else has an idea feel free to suggest it.)

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Finally, your capstone is weaker than a level 7 and a level 8 strike. In fact, the level 7 strike (Life Is Precious) is stronger than the other two. I'd switch the level and prerequisites of Life Is Precious and Final Rest.

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Huh? I'm missing something here. How is that the case?

The level seven strike kills any creature that fails a fortitude save. The level nine strike kills any undead or deathless that fails a fortitude save. Notice the difference? Sure, there are tiny odds and ends, but anything that forces a save or die on more types of creatures is de facto stronger.

If anything the IL+5 HD Cap seems arbitrary to me in the (currently) level seven strike too. It only seems to make it work on creatures that weren't too tough based on abilities alone that the author decided adding additional HD would be a solution. So in effect, it hurts interesting encounters more than uninteresting ones. :smallsigh:

If I could remember which maneuvers I changed a word or two on, I'd have listed them already. Generally though, the gist is understood and the spelling/grammar of works on this forum tend to not be looked at as much.

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Originally Posted by Havvy

The level seven strike kills any creature that fails a fortitude save. The level nine strike kills any undead or deathless that fails a fortitude save. Notice the difference? Sure, there are tiny odds and ends, but anything that forces a save or die on more types of creatures is de facto stronger.

If anything the IL+5 HD Cap seems arbitrary to me in the (currently) level seven strike too. It only seems to make it work on creatures that weren't too tough based on abilities alone that the author decided adding additional HD would be a solution. So in effect, it hurts interesting encounters more than uninteresting ones. :smallsigh:

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Good points. I'll change that as you've suggested. (Will do so later today, internet right now is a bit wonky).