And the werehydra, which kind of started the ball rolling down an ugly path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niezck
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And the werehydra, which kind of started the ball rolling down an ugly path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niezck
i think that the stance, "will accept class progressions for homebrew monsters that have already been thoroughly critiqued" is absolutely reasonable.
1) some homebrew monsters––quite a few of them, in fact––are extremely well done, much better balanced than officially published monsters, and have enough people using them that they ought to be given class levels.
2) not all of the published monsters are worth doing. some of them outright suck even if there was a bit of creativity to their creation, and others have not an ounce creativity to begin with. in fact, some published monsters are just monsters from previous books with class levels (a way for wotc to steal your money and claim that they are actually giving you a new product).
3) hyudra mentions that the project should stay away from homebrew, otherwise "we'll never be done." i don't think that argument holds water at all. for one, this is a project with a fairly narrow readership anyway, and an even smaller group of homebrewers. as well as it has gone on so far, it is far more likely that this project will fizzle out far before you all have done every monster in every published book. you might not like it, but it will probably happen (and almost did just a few weeks ago).
4) let's pretend that the stars align just right and the project is still running strong when you do reach the last monster in the last book. are you just going to give each other high-fives and walk away? why not continue with the aforementioned homebrew monsters that are just begging to be streamlined into playable classes?
EDIT:
5) some of you at this point are probably saying, "so when we reach the last monster in the last book, then we'll start focusing on homebrew." but that would show some bias against homebrew on your part. as mentioned on a thread about homebrew bias on the roleplaying forum just a few days ago, some people stick with official content because they are under the fallacious idea that it has already been playtested and balanced––which is very often not the case. therefore, it ignores the already stated fact that some published monsters suck, fluff-wise, creative mechanics-wise, and balance-wise. meanwhile, some homebrew monsters have been run through a gauntlet of critique and are much better quality all around than the published monsters.
EDIT-EDIT:
so, my suggestion is that you just do what has already been outlined on the first page: accept quality homebrew. those that don't want to critique homebrew don't have to. but you shouldn't complain that it is there simply because it is homebrew.
in some cases, "quality" homebrew will be a contestable description, especially because even on these prolific homebrew boards, many things go by with only a comment or two. in those cases, if there are problems, obvious or subtle, or it never got any critque, but you want do class levels for it anyway, PM the creator about starting a new thread for it or reopening a thread with moderator permission, and then get it the critique ball rolling yourself.
I repeat my previous stance that having a separate thread for entirely homebrewed monster classes might be beneficial.
I also repeat my previous stance that I am highly reluctant to take any such responsibility upon myself.
I Might create such a thread and rules for the thread (mostly the same as this) if enough people would like it. Since the committee here have enough to go through, we could make a new "committee" if some respected homebrewers come, possibly myself and others. :smallbiggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajhera
It should be said - crappy monsters can be very interesting to make into viable classes. Ditto for unbalanced monsters. It forces the creator to come up with creative answers, which can make for unique creations.Quote:
2) not all of the published monsters are worth doing. some of them outright suck even if there was a bit of creativity to their creation, and others have not an ounce creativity to begin with. in fact, some published monsters are just monsters from previous books with class levels (a way for wotc to steal your money and claim that they are actually giving you a new product).
First of all, I disagree that this is a project with a narrow readership. It's probably one of the more popular projects I've seen, and I've sighted people using this material throughout GitP and the various PbP sites. There has also been a great deal of community involvement here, both in requests, critiques and creations.Quote:
3) hyudra mentions that the project should stay away from homebrew, otherwise "we'll never be done." i don't think that argument holds water at all. for one, this is a project with a fairly narrow readership anyway, and an even smaller group of homebrewers. as well as it has gone on so far, it is far more likely that this project will fizzle out far before you all have done every monster in every published book. you might not like it, but it will probably happen (and almost did just a few weeks ago).
4) let's pretend that the stars align just right and the project is still running strong when you do reach the last monster in the last book. are you just going to give each other high-fives and walk away? why not continue with the aforementioned homebrew monsters that are just begging to be streamlined into playable classes?
As for your argument, think of it less as a "We're actually going to do every monster in every official book" and more of a boundary that we're working in. It has been demonstrated before, we have to draw the line somewhere, or a project of this scope will just get out of control. Sticking within official material is a nice, clean-cut line to draw in the sand. Including 'quality homebrew' is vague and subjective and just adds an arbitrary number to what is already a considerable pool of monsters to work on.
Thing is, if "those that don't want to critique homebrew don't have to", then it's quite likely that there's no point to doing the homebrew monster classes at all. To illustrate: Both Gorgon and I have expressed very little interest in covering homebrew. We're busy enough creating our own monsters and critiquing everything that comes through the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stycotl
But if we don't touch the homebrew, it doesn't get done and it doesn't get added to the list... so it just winds up being clutter. Especially if people start just posting whatever comes to mind, as we've seen in the past (Werehydra, the fey thing we saw a few pages back, werewight, a small handful of others I can't be bothered to recall).
Which just goes back to my response, earlier; people shouldn't be surprised or offended if there's a minimal response to their request/post of homebrew monster classes.
Neat, that seems like a good idea, if we can find the interest. I am by no stretch of the imagination a respected homebrewer (though I imagine these homebrew classes might require art) (though I wouldn't say I'm the best at that either) as of yet, but I support this course of action as potentially beneficial for all concerned. :smallsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Betropper
I think I'll take up the Ethergaunt next ...
Just a heads up, Niezck, I was chatting with Gorgondantess and IIRC, he expressed interest in doing Ethergaunt while taking a break from Pseudonatural Creature, so you may want to double check with him before both of you get 90% done. It sounded like he already had some preliminary stuff done on it.
1) Okay, moved BAB down to 3/4. You guys make a convincing argument.:smallbiggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyudra
2) Yeah, I'll admit that your Purple Worm inspired quite a few things on the Remorhaz, since they are somewhat similar in concept.I did move Burrow down to 3rd level, trading it with Ambush. I figure that by that level other classes are getting closer to things that make a soft-surface burrowing ability less useful. On the other hand, I think I can move it back still further if I need to. I've got an idea or two in my head that aren't quite developed yet.Lurker should help fix this.
3) Hopefully the changes to Heat will help clarify it a lot. It had some really dumb issues that I really shouldn't have let through on the first post, but I'm a terrible self-editor.:smalltongue: Either way, I gave it uses and consequences somewhat like a barbarian's Rage, but I'm still not sure how well its balanced. As for it being a passive ability... Its the Remorhaz's signature ability. Hopefully having it be a few times/day will help it be a battle form/dramatic fight ability, but its going to be hard to drift away from passiveness while still keeping the flavor of the original. Ideas are welcome.
4) Sorry for cribbing Flexible, I probably should've asked about that first. I'll get rid of it if you would rather I not use it. On the other hand, it really fits what I'm going for with this class: Melee battlefield control.
5) I lowered the range and damage of the earth/rock use of Pyroclastic Belch, let me know if that works for you. The goal is to make each use approximately equal, while giving a creature without limbs a ranged attack option. I'm not sure if this is overdone for that, but it seemed like it might be alright to deal with flying opponents occasionally.
6) I'll admit that Firey Surge was really messed up. The image in my head looked like Castigating Strike + Explosive Fireball, so I stole the mechanics from both and mashed them together. Not exactly smart or balanced. Either way, I've modified it, so that it does less damage(equal to Heat, so 4d6 instead of 7) got rid of the knocked prone part, and played with the radius to be a little less silly. I also added the use/day that I forgot on the first iteration. Hopefully, that will make the Remorhaz's alpha strike a bit less broken, and a bit more playable.
Sorry for not getting back to this very quickly. Hopefully I should be able to really work on this and get back to critiquing monsters after the holiday season.
Ah, right. Well if he's doing it I'll take up one of the other old, powerful ones.
Speaking of which ... Any update on the Wild Hunt, Gorgon?
you didn't really address most of the issues that i brought up.
you can't have it both ways. it can't be, "it's fun to fix broken/boring/uninspired/unplaytested monsters so long as they are canon, but not if they are homebrew."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyudra
i realize that you *can* have it both ways if you really want, but it is based off of a lack of logical thought.
as cool as oslecamo's project is, it is a niche project on a niche website that is dedicated to a niche version of a niche game in a niche hobby.Quote:
First of all, I disagree that this is a project with a narrow readership. It's probably one of the more popular projects I've seen, and I've sighted people using this material throughout GitP and the various PbP sites. There has also been a great deal of community involvement here, both in requests, critiques and creations.
thus, it pretty reasonably qualifies as "narrow" in my book. regardless of how popular the project/website/game/hobby might actually be within that circle.
the point is that it is most likely not going to get finished. you can argue that all you want, but looking back through the hundreds of pages of the homebrew forum, even large projects like this one historically peter off until hardly anyone remembers them.
i don't want it to fizzle out, and i also don't want it to suddenly disappear once all of the official 3.5 sources are used up. hence, a willingness to include homebrew seems perfectly reasonable to me.
arbitrary number; considerable pool; etc. you are talking in finite terms here, when i see no reason at all to place a limiter on it. reducing the "pool" does absolutely nothing to increase quality of the project. it is irrelevant to it, because it does not affect the actual creation or critique of the monsters themselves in any form whatsoever.Quote:
As for your argument, think of it less as a "We're actually going to do every monster in every official book" and more of a boundary that we're working in. It has been demonstrated before, we have to draw the line somewhere, or a project of this scope will just get out of control. Sticking within official material is a nice, clean-cut line to draw in the sand. Including 'quality homebrew' is vague and subjective and just adds an arbitrary number to what is already a considerable pool of monsters to work on.
therefore, controlling the apparent considerableness of the pool size of possible monsters is an artificial boundary that does nothing to get to the root of the issue.
"security theater" is the appropriate term here, and i think we should focus on other things that actually affect quality control if we are going to fix this.
"quite likely" holds a world of difference from "definitely." if your primary concern is that maybe the homebrew won't get critiqued, then banning it doesn't make sense. rather, allow it, see if it gets critiqued, and add the ones that do get sufficient critique to the list, and ignore the ones that don't.Quote:
Thing is, if "those that don't want to critique homebrew don't have to", then it's quite likely that there's no point to doing the homebrew monster classes at all.
great. so don't critique them. but don't pretend that your and gorgon's personal distaste for homebrew in this project means that others shouldn't have the opportunity.Quote:
To illustrate: Both Gorgon and I have expressed very little interest in covering homebrew. We're busy enough creating our own monsters and critiquing everything that comes through the thread.
again, irrelevant to the issue. clutter has nothing to do with the quality of the overall project. if that were the case, we should limit all non-submissions and non-critiques to PMs only.Quote:
But if we don't touch the homebrew, it doesn't get done and it doesn't get added to the list... so it just winds up being clutter.
tacitus created the warforged octopus, which he stated he was fine with if it didn't get added to the list. so far, it isn't on the list. does that mean that it is clutter? is it impeding your ability to enjoy the project, critique canon monster classes, or post your own submissions? even if he had ten other homebrew monster submissions, would that impede your personal participation in this thread?
i don't think so.
this is a quality control issue that is again made irrelevant because those are not preexisting, pre-critiqued monsters.Quote:
Especially if people start just posting whatever comes to mind, as we've seen in the past (Werehydra, the fey thing we saw a few pages back, werewight, a small handful of others I can't be bothered to recall).
has nothing to do with whether or not it came out of a wotc book or not.
and that goes back to the "if you don't want to critique a monster, whether homebrew or not, don't. it's not very complicated.Quote:
Which just goes back to my response, earlier; people shouldn't be surprised or offended if there's a minimal response to their request/post of homebrew monster classes.
what is complicated, is when people start legislating rights based off of their own personal preference.
i don't like guns/big dogs/personal aircraft/etc because they are scary/confusing/hard to finance/hard to insure/require math/etc. therefore, let's ban them.
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reasonable rules as i see them:
1) if you want to submit homebrew monster classes, make sure the base monstes are critiqued.
2) if a base monster has yet to be critiqued, start the critique yourself. if you can't get ahold of the creator for the posting of a new thread or (mod-approved) resurrection of an old thread, start a new one with a link at the top.
3) when you submit a homebrew monster class, link to the source, and and any possible separate sources of critique done. then, at the top of your submission, make sure to delineate this as a homebrew source so that any and all of those allergic to homebrew can wisely skip over it without getting cooties (ignoring completely the fact that this is a homebrew project on a homebrew forum...). this should keep down on the confusion and "clutter."
3) if a homebrew monster class is submitted for critique, DON'T DO IT if you don't want to! don't critique a monster that you don't want to. if you resent it, ignore it.
4) if a homebrew monster should happen to receive a good enough critique-and-modification process that it meets the preexisting standards of the project, then add it to the list with a "homebrew" designation, to again warn away all of those that would be offended upon opening it.
5) sing kumbaya while holding hands and basking in the knowledge that you enabled someone else in their creative desires, without ruining the reputation of the project with crappy, cluttering, superfluous submissions.
I think that adding honebrew monsters decreases the legitimacy of the project. I support the idea that homebrew deserves its own thread.
Also, anyone care to critique my Briarvex on the last page?
Manticore is also needing a more in depth look.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishAreWet
I'm not particularly involved with the politics of the thread anymore. But... it doesn't seem things have changed to the point where we regulate what people can or can't post. The argument over the legitimacy of Homebrew mosnters is kind of moot, by that if they are unbalanced and uninteresting they won't make "the list," if they are balanced and interesting I think they will "make the list." In the beginning we made it clear that anything can be posted here, but it may be inappropriate with the projects goals, and may be asked to be moved to its own thread. (There is no requirement to do so, but critiquing of things like a Werewight probably won't happen because no one is forced to critique anything, as well they shouldn't be.)
That said, can we keep discussions of the rules, and arguments of them to PM? Such disagreements clutter this already cluttered thread, and I fear hostility or unintended statements may lead to a deeper argument that may threat to close the thread. Of course, this is just a suggestion. I'm just another member of the community who doesn't want to see it get closed.
As some of you may have noticed, the Homebrew Monster version of this thread is Officialy Open. As of now, I have a council of one, so anyone who wishes can request to join.
Happy Homebrewing!
On the ethergaunt: always check the called monsters list, people. If you want to make a monster and it's not on there, make sure it gets on there.
Nope. I think that'll be my first monster up, though... then the pseudonatural creature, then the ethergaunt. I've really just been tinkering with that one, for a while, though if anybody (including you, Niezck) has anything they'd like to see in any of these monsters, do tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niezck
In case it got missed, I posted a Trumpet Archon post last page.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=592
Yes, it was missed. Tip: don't spoiler the picture unless it's a screen-stretcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajhera
Out of curiosity, why is everyone insistent on having pictures? The load times for this topic can be a pain. =|
and even then, I heartily recommend learning the basics of a paint shop or whatever image upload site, to resize your image to something smaller, so it can be properly displayed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgondantess
Pictures make the actual monster entries easily identifiable, and for many monsters, give people something of a clue about what the monster is all about.
Because pictures are a good thing. They add ambiance. Which one would you rather see when going to a class: a hefty, boring statblock or this?Quote:
Originally Posted by NineThePuma
Considering that the picture can double my load time?
Considering that you're probably the only person in this thread that it would double the load time for. I frequently use free public terminals (at the library or at the college) and it usually takes me a few seconds to load one of these pages. Are you running dialup or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by NineThePuma
Ah, I thought it was a bigger image than it was. Whoops. :smallsigh:
No, I'm running less than a 512MB of RAM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajhera
Spoiler
- Heavenly Music:
- Don't know I get the purpose of this particular entry in the list of class features? I suppose it's the analogue of Bardic Music?
- Celestial Trumpet:
- As a free action, you can change your trumpet into a melee weapon you're proficient with, and distribute the enhancement bonuses as you see fit. If I'm reading this right, this lets you change it to a weapon of parrying (+AC, +Saves) when you're under attack, then a weapon of bane (whatever enemy you're fighting) when attacking?
- +1/hd is a fair bit for perform. Figure each +1 is a +5% chance to succeed. By 10th level, you're packing enough of a bonus you're not going to fail any perform checks, period.
- I'd replace Inspire Courage and other 'bardy' abilities with new creations that better fit the celestial theme.
- Divine Soul: Cleric casting is... a bit much.
- Celestia Magic: See above point, add "Especially with at-will, no-limit SLAs on top of that."
- I don't know that the permanent magic circle against evil should be used. IIRC, it's sort of the schtick of a few select classes (Lantern Archon being one of them.).
- Fortifying Melody: Duration/caster level for the effect?
- Aura of Menace: Don't know that it fits the theme.
- Paralyzing Awe: Screws over non-archon party members.
- Heavenly Choir: Really powerful.
- Piercing Melody: Ties into my comment about really high perform checks, above. Between ranks, natural abilities and trumpet bonuses, at 12th level you've got something close to a +33 on your perform check. Bump that higher with a casting of eagle's splendor or the like. Compare to what might otherwise be your DC of 22ish (6 from HD, ~6 from stat).
- Overall, it's way too feature heavy. You've got, arguably, superior (if less versatile) music to that of a bard, plus cleric casting, plus SLAs, plus various other tricks. It does feel impressive, to read, but it's too powerful, all things put together.
... Okay, agree with a lot of the comments, but: It's an archon, it should get archon powers. Hence magic circle against evil, etc.
Also I thought I put that the trumpet bonuses are chosen when it gets a point of enhancement. Did I leave that out?
Ah, I just got confused by the last sentence: "He may choose the enhancement distribution any time the granted bonus changes."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajhera
I'll phrase it better when I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyudra
Inspire Courage seems fairly fitting to me, but I am going to need aid to come up with more celestialish things in general, that don't overwhelm the class with features. Again, it being a trumpet archon, it would be neat for it to use its trumpet for a few more things.
I was going to change Paralyzing Awe because yeah, it does. I shall get to that.
Cleric casting is pretty essential for a monster that normally 'prefers to solve encounters with spells' and has cleric casting 14 on what is normally a 12HD monster. I figured making it 2/3rds casting might leave some room for features; and caster level = HD seems to be pretty standard for these things. I just wasn't sure how many features I could slide into those lost five levels, so I overshot. :smallamused:
Did I remember to put in the part about the continual flames only lasting a minute unless some material components are spent? Yeah, OK. They're not exactly overpowering spell-likes, so I'm not all that worried about them.
The thing about spellcasting is it's pretty much the most overpowered class feature you can get. Divine spellcasting is notable because you're effectively getting access to every divine spell printed for your class, in every sourcebook your DM allows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajhera
Adding to that, you've got a bunch of spell-likes. They're not amazing, true, but they alleviate the need to fritter away some of your daily spells to do the regular stuff (detect magic, shed some light on your surroundings, etc). It just gives you a little more freedom with a class feature that gives you a lot of freedom to begin with.
Remember, we have a fair bit of freedom with interpreting the classes. I prefer sticking with the flavor over the mechanics - the Trumpet Archon as printed may prefer solving encounters with spells, but that's a conclusion the developers likely came to after they were done designing the creature. Given that most celestials have some extensive spellcasting, I do not think it would be a tragedy to deviate slightly from the pattern & make the Trumpet Archon a little more distinct. Keep the core elements, of course, but focus more on the trumpet and the music than on the core celestial stuff.