Core only Bard

Do you really need extra skills as a Bard? You get quite a lot already. Is this 3.5? Because Versatile Performance in PF would save you a lot of skill points, but I don't think 3.5 has that.

For a melee Bard, I'd really put the 16 in Str (or Dex if you go the Finesse route, but you don't have to) and put a 14 in Int. That's still 8 skill points per level (9 if you're human). Is that not enough?

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Originally Posted by nedz

If being a skill monkey is important, there's always the Bardic Knack variant ?

• Lose Bardic Knowledge
• Make skill checks assuming, a minimum of, ½ Bard level ranks.
  
• These do not apply for Feats or PrC Pre-requisites
• You must have at least 1 real rank in a ‘Trained only’ skill to use it.

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Originally Posted by Con_Brio1993

I am currently in a relatively low-mid op campaign. Everyone is around level 3-4 and my Druid died so I now want to make a level 3 bard. The DM expects the campaign to get to level 8-10, and perhaps more if there is enough continued player interest.
...
For stats I rolled: 12/12/14/14/16/17.

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Melee bard in core can be difficult, at least until you get access to Alter Self at level 4. At that point, you'll be changing into a Troglodyte for the natural attacks and +6 natural armor.

For your first few levels you are probably better off being a flanking buddy with the rogue, or hitting enemies with Grease. Animate Rope and Hideous Laughter are also goodies. If you go this route, 17 charisma is a must for saves and bonus spells.

However if you want to be more melee than spellcasting, I'd recommend putting that 17 in strength, 14 in both dex and con, and the 12s in wis and charisma. You could always switch str and dex around if you want more AC and the Weapon Finesse route. Saves won't matter so much because you'll be sticking with buffs, for the most part, and maybe some healing. Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, and maybe Unseen Servant or Silent Image are good choices for 1st level spells.

You will of course want Mithril armor as soon as you can afford it. Get a weapon that you can use 2-handed like a longspear or longsword.

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Originally Posted by prufock

Melee bard in core can be difficult, at least until you get access to Alter Self at level 4. At that point, you'll be changing into a Troglodyte for the natural attacks and +6 natural armor.

For your first few levels you are probably better off being a flanking buddy with the rogue, or hitting enemies with Grease. Animate Rope and Hideous Laughter are also goodies. If you go this route, 17 charisma is a must for saves and bonus spells.

However if you want to be more melee than spellcasting, I'd recommend putting that 17 in strength, 14 in both dex and con, and the 12s in wis and charisma. You could always switch str and dex around if you want more AC and the Weapon Finesse route. Saves won't matter so much because you'll be sticking with buffs, for the most part, and maybe some healing. Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, and maybe Unseen Servant or Silent Image are good choices for 1st level spells.

You will of course want Mithril armor as soon as you can afford it. Get a weapon that you can use 2-handed like a longspear or longsword.

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I definitely want to be more spellcasting. We have a Fighter, Monk, and Rouge/Cleric, so we have some melee power already.

Animate rope seems not too great? Hideous Laughter is definitely something I will take, since it seems very much Save or Die.

Is there a guide on core-only targets for Alter Self and the bonuses they give?

I'm not set on being a melee bard. In fact, I'd rather not melee. I'm just confused as to what feats to take if I want to be more support oriented.

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Originally Posted by Con_Brio1993

Is there a guide on core-only targets for Alter Self and the bonuses they give?

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Here's one I prepared earlier

Alterself Core Humanoid Options
{table=head]Creature|Size|Move|Special
Bugbear|Medium|30 ft|+3 Natural Armour, +4 Move Silent
Dwarf|Medium|20 ft|Stability +4
Elf|Medium|30 ft|+2 Listen, Spot, Search
Half Elf|Medium|30 ft|+1 Listen, Spot, Search
Aquatic Elf|Medium|Swim 40 ft|Gills
Githyanki|Medium|30 ft|
Githzerai|Medium|30 ft|
Gnoll|Medium|30 ft|+1 Natural Armour
Gnome|Small|20 ft|+2 Listen
Halfling|Small|20 ft|+2 Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Listen, +1 thown
Hobgoblin|Medium|30 ft|+4 Move Silent, Alertness
Lizardfolk|Medium|30 ft|+5 Natural Armour, 2 claws (d4) bite (d4) +4 Balance, Jump, Swim, Hold Breath, Multiattack
Locathah|Medium|10 ft / swim 60 ft|
Merfolk|Medium|5 ft / swim 50 ft|Alertness
Orc|Medium|30 ft|Alertness
Troglodyte|Medium|30 ft|+6 Nat Armour, 2x claws (d4) bite (d4) +4 Hide (+8 underground), Multiattack, Stench {DC 13 Fort or nauseated for 10 rds, 30 ft}
[/table]

Thanks Nedz. :)

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.

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Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.

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*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

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Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.

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1. Yeah he banned Leadership instantly.

2. Well Suggestion is a class feature. I took Grease for now and will pick HLaughter up later.

3. Alright.

4. Archery feats seem stupidly costly. Like you need a ton of near useless feats for no reason. And with only 12 or 14 dex, seems like I wouldn't be hitting much anyway. I'm thinking of mostly avoiding combat entirely, or focusing on keeping myself safe in combat while buffing everyone else. Any recommended feats for a spoony bard?

5. Honestly, most people are picking skills their class would already have had. So it isn't too big a deal. I also never really liked the idea of class skills. I might have if they weren't so poorly done. Why are things like spot or listen class skills?

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Originally Posted by Socratov

*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

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I don't think those are in core :(

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Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

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For combat this is usually true, but the other options can be useful.

Let's see... Core Bard...

EWP: Spiked Chain, Extend Spell, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip...

Good spells are Grease, Silent Image, Sleep, Alter Self (Troglodyte!!), Glitterdust, Glibness, Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Evocation, etc.

Make sure to get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or two.

Use Perform Oratory or Perform Sing so you can continue to fight and keep your bardsong up.

You are a secondary battlefield control sorcerer and a secondary tripper, and an out of combat healer with a wand. You're also loremaster, and a solid socialite. Buy a bunch of scrolls of utility spells.

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Originally Posted by Socratov

*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

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*cough*neither of which are Core*cough*

In any case, as has been mentioned, melee bard tends to be tougher in Core, with fewer attack boosting options and poor survivability. You can make a troglodyte natural attacker work, I guess, but it's going to be only so-so.

My advice instead would be to play your melee in a more support-oriented fashion. Confuse, obfuscate, and outright lie and steal at every possible opportunity. Feel free to max out Sleight of Hand, and provide a flank for your rogue friend. While he's stabbing your enemy in the spleen, you can steal the enemy's spell component pouch, quiver of arrows, etc.

Carry a bunch of nets with you, by the way. Don't bother taking proficiency with the net - it's a touch attack to hit, and you'll be mostly aiming for the big targets, so you can suck up that -4 penalty (especially with your Inspire Courage boost). Hit someone with a net and watch as their mobility and defenses drop like a rock.

If you are fighting a lot of humanoid enemies, disarming and tripping can work as well. (If you fight a lot of monsters, both tactics become far less appealing - monsters will probably have better strength scores/size bonuses than you, and frequently don't carry weapons.) Combat Expertise/Improved Disarm/Improved Trip is all you really need for that, although Combat Reflexes is also nice, if you end up with a dex of 14 or higher.

For core bard spells, I'd recommend looking at...

1-
Grease. Reduce movement, force balance checks, use as an instant disarm - it's a nice little spell. Combines well with other things that mess around with movement, like tanglefoot bags and nets.

Silent Image. You can also get this in a wand if you want to save the spell slots, since the duration is based on concentration. However, with a little ingenuity (and a lot of bluff checks), this can be the single most versatile spell in the game.

Sleep. It's quite nice at low levels, but gets old quickly. If you take it, trade it out as soon as possible.

2-
Alter Self. Nedz already hit why this is so good. Primarily useful for a nice defensive form, but also good to pick up things like swim speeds, and for disguises.

Glitterdust. Blind enemies get a big miss chance against your party, and this blinds a bunch of enemies at once. You can trivialize otherwise tough encounters with this spell. Also reduces hiding/invisibility. Nice dual purpose spell.

Mirror Image. The best core defensive buff for its level for you. (Invisibility is something I find less useful as a core bard, since you'll be making lots of noise by your nature.)

Shatter. More useful if you face a lot of humanoid enemies, who have gear that can be shattered, but definitely a fun spell.

Silence. Sure, you generally don't want to be quiet, but cast this on your bruiser before he runs up to engage with the spellcaster. See how well they cast when they can't make noise.

Summon Swarm. Usually not great, particularly because of the concentration duration. But this is an ongoing damage/distraction effect, and can give you something to do with your rounds when you're low on spells. Sing, buff, and pop off a swarm, then maintain the song and the swarm for a few levels. Fades in usefulness pretty quickly, though - consider trading it out.

3-
Dispel Magic. The best debuff in the game, except for maybe the greater version. Also good for taking out magic traps, etc.

Fear. One of the best "save or lose" spells, and you get it earlier than most. In a cone, everyone not immune to fear either fails their save and is taken out of the fight for a while, or makes their save and is shaken (which gives a -2 to most checks). Very nice.

Glibness. You're playing a bard, you WANT this spell.

Haste. You're playing a bard, boosting the party is your bread and butter. Haste is even better than your bardic music in many ways, and they combine very well - extra attacks are great when you're adding damage to all of them.

4-
Freedom of Movement. Someone in your party needs this spell. If it's not you, make sure it's your cleric.

Modify Memory. I probably wouldn't take this as a spell known, but I'd definitely keep a scroll or two of this on hand at all times. This is a pretty unique effect, and you can have a LOT of fun with it.

Shadow Conjuration. What can you do with this? Set up a sleet storm to block off swaths of the terrain. Summon a phantom steed for fast travel. Summon a dretch who also gets some SLAs. Fire off a web to keep your foes from escaping. Trap a book with a sepia snake sigil and give it to your enemy. The point is, you've got options with this spell, and the bard NEEDS options.

5-
Greater Dispel Magic. See what I said about dispel magic, and make it... greater.

Shadow Evocation. OK, I mentioned Shadow Conjuration. Now what can you do with this one? How about making a shadow wall of ice or resilient sphere? Shadow gust of wind, perhaps, to disperse a swarm or a solid fog that's bugging you? Maybe a shadow daylight (how does that work?) to really piss off some drow?

Summon Monster V. Use this to pick up a hound archon, for scent/magic circle/aura of menace/spell-like abilities. Or maybe an earth elemental to abuse earth glide. Or an aicherai for the insanity cloud? Or just send a fiendish tiger to eat your enemies.

6-
Animate Objects. Try to prepare by bringing objects with you that are good choices for this spell. I used this on a small boat once, and it was amazing - its sails let it qualify for blinding and flight, its ropes gave it a constrict attack, etc.

Find the Path. Contact Other Plane gets all the hype for game-breaking divination spells, but for my money, nothing beats Find the Path.

Irresistable Dance. It's been mentioned, but it's worth mentioning again. Touch someone and completely remove them from the fight, no save. Best of all, they look really silly while you do it.

Project Image. Now you can be 300' away from the action and still perform like you're right there in the thick of it.

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Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Let's see... Core Bard...

EWP: Spiked Chain, Extend Spell, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip...

Good spells are Grease, Silent Image, Sleep, Alter Self (Troglodyte!!), Glitterdust, Glibness, Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Evocation, etc.

Make sure to get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or two.

Use Perform Oratory or Perform Sing so you can continue to fight and keep your bardsong up.

You are a secondary battlefield control sorcerer and a secondary tripper, and an out of combat healer with a wand. You're also loremaster, and a solid socialite. Buy a bunch of scrolls of utility spells.

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Heh, in this case I'd be more primary tripper since I'd be the only one on the team doing it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to beg my DM if I can take some of the IC boosting feats, but if he says no I will go with this.

How important is strength with this build? I only have 12 or 14 strength. :(

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Originally Posted by Con_Brio1993

Heh, in this case I'd be more primary tripper since I'd be the only one on the team doing it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to beg my DM if I can take some of the IC boosting feats, but if he says no I will go with this.

How important is strength with this build? I only have 12 or 14 strength. :(

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You'll need Cha, Strength, Con. Get a 14 strength, not a 12.

Max UMD. Get at least a few potions of Enlarge Person (the 50 gp version). Eventually consider a Wand of Enlarge Person. Consider that other list of useful spells too. As soon as you can reliably activate a L1 Wand, get a few utility wands.

Show the person or people who want to play melee this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

It's basically the only way to play tactically interesting melee in Core.

Get animals! Lots of animals to tank for you. Animals are often better tanks than Fighter and Paladin. Even 8 GP mules are solid (get a few).

Be sure to get Tumble.

Will you have access to SRD feats?

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Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

You'll need Cha, Strength, Con. Get a 14 strength, not a 12.

Max UMD. Get at least a few potions of Enlarge Person (the 50 gp version). Eventually consider a Wand of Enlarge Person. Consider that other list of useful spells too. As soon as you can reliably activate a L1 Wand, get a few utility wands.

Show the person or people who want to play melee this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

It's basically the only way to play tactically interesting melee in Core.

Get animals! Lots of animals to tank for you. Animals are often better tanks than Fighter and Paladin. Even 8 GP mules are solid (get a few).

Be sure to get Tumble.

Will you have access to SRD feats?

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I dont know what you mean by SRD feats. As for that link, the game is designed for newer players. The DM hasn't thrown any really challenging enemies at us. Most of the actual challenge seems to be not pissing off stronger NPCs...

I doubt they'll need tripping or any optimization.

System Resource Document, which has several options available for free online.

http://www.d20srd.org/

Many people consider "Core" to be: PHB + DMG + MM1 + SRD. Does your GM consider this Core?

As far as that link... the point of it is to give interesting tactical options, which is actually pretty useful for a starting character, because they have the option of doing more things than just "I move and attack" or "I stand there and full attack". Especially if they want to 'tank'.

Here, for example, is a PHB + SRD Horizon Tripper I wrote up: http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/....php?cid=55074

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Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

System Resource Document, which has several options available for free online.

http://www.d20srd.org/

Many people consider "Core" to be: PHB + DMG + MM1 + SRD. Does your GM consider this Core?

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Our DM considers core anything from that website, and I think the DMG.

Also the players seem to be having fun as is. I don't want to over-complicate things with tripping builds and other jazz.

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Originally Posted by Con_Brio1993

Our DM considers core anything from that website, and I think the DMG.

Also the players seem to be having fun as is. I don't want to over-complicate things with tripping builds and other jazz.

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That changes things significantly! Your feats and skills and possible items and possible races just expanded, in a very large sense!

Bardic Sage and (especially) Savage Bard become options. You have access to the Extra Music, Hold the Line, Jack of All Trades, Knock-Down, Open Minded, Reckless Offense, Wild Talent, and Stand Still feats. You can take cross-class Autohypnosis ranks if you want. You have access to Traits and Flaws (take a Trait and two flaws)!

Here are some generically useful equipment from the DMG & SRD, in general:

Spoiler

Show

handy haversacks

cloak of resistance +2 (or higher!)

hand of the mage

hat of disguise

amulet of health, headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, gloves of dexterity, etc. etc

boots of landing, stomp, and elvenkind (combined item per dmg rules; per the errata, you multiply all but the most expensive part by 1.5)

gloves of object reading

skin of nimbleness (yay tumbling!)

third eye aware

ring of protection

(for the arcanists): mithral light shield +1 of light fortification and heartening with +1 defending parrying silver shield spikes

rod of lesser extend spell

medallion of thought projection (for Druids to be able to communicate when Wild Shaped)

mithral chain shirt +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

mithral breastplate +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

permanently ironwooded darkwood (treat as mithral but not as durable) breastplate +1 with +1 defending parrying ironwood armor spikes (for the Druids; not getting light fortification because saving up for 'wild')

+1 permanently ironwooded darkwood barding (for level 5 druid forms that aren't humanoid and thus can't wear human armor, like a Baboon can. Things like Crocodile, Deinonychus, or Leopard)

mithral full plate +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

+1 Psychokinetic Adamantine Greatsword

+1 Spell Storing Adamantine Guisarme

+1 Spell Storing Adamantine Spiked Chain

+1 Keen Adamantine Falchion

+1 Heartening Bashing Darkwood Heavy Shield with +1 Psychokinetic Adamantine Shield Spikes (This would be used two handed as a primary weapon, so as to get two handed weapon bonuses with shield bonuses. fighting two handed with a single spiked shield is a realistic, historic combat style, btw.)

+1 Animated Heavy Shield

Perhaps the best item in the entire DMG+SRD is the Psychoactive Skin of the Proteus.

Maybe a 1/Day or 2/day Wondrous Item of Alter Self, at Caster level 3 (Troglodyte or Lizardfolk are good combat forms...)

Also, Hippogriffs / Pegasi / Griffons / Etc!!

Prices of Magical Beasts with Flight per DMG:

Giant Eagle: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Giant Owl: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Hippogriff: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Griffon: 7000 gp for young, +1500 for training
Pegasus: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

That changes things significantly! Your feats and skills and possible items and possible races just expanded, in a very large sense!

Bardic Sage and (especially) Savage Bard become options. You have access to the Extra Music, Hold the Line, Jack of All Trades, Knock-Down, Open Minded, Reckless Offense, Wild Talent, and Stand Still feats. You can take cross-class Autohypnosis ranks if you want. You have access to Traits and Flaws (take a Trait and two flaws)!

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Wait how does Savage Bard become an option? None of those feats seem to be on d20srd.

Also our DM isn't allowing traits or flaws sadly. :(

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Originally Posted by Con_Brio1993

Wait how does Savage Bard become an option? None of those feats seem to be on d20srd.

Also our DM isn't allowing traits or flaws sadly. :(

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Savage Bard, Divine Bard (only use if you have a REALLY high point buy, like 40), and Bardic Sage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terClasses.htm

As far as the feats?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/ps...atDescriptions
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...eats.htm#feats

Look for 'General' feats. Those are the feats that anyone can take. Especially the feats I mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Savage Bard, Divine Bard (only use if you have a REALLY high point buy, like 40), and Bardic Sage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terClasses.htm

As far as the feats?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/ps...atDescriptions
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...eats.htm#feats

Look for 'General' feats. Those are the feats that anyone can take. Especially the feats I mentioned.

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Looking at them, I can only see Extra Music as useful.

Jack of All trades isn't useful since our DM isn't doing class skills. And I sadly do not have the stats for a tripping build.