Ironically, this is an experience I can't identify with at all. Who just skips parts of the things they're reading? :smallamused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukkai
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Ironically, this is an experience I can't identify with at all. Who just skips parts of the things they're reading? :smallamused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukkai
Certainly not me :D :smallcool: I just said it is like that :PQuote:
Originally Posted by georgie_leech
Originally QC's brand was 'Bland Indie Boy Surrounded by Indie Girls Like In a Harem Anime, but with Indecipherable References to Music No One's Actually Ever Listened To'. Now its brand is 'Attractive Women With Problems', which is more succinct.
So tilly only now realizes that invading someones life, ignoring their earnest declaration that you go away, is a bad thing? Really? I was expecting some sort of doomsday device was being pointed at her parents home, or blackmail material on her college experimentation with animal ai units being held over her head, not that she is somehow dumb enough to be told "Go help this girl and refuse to listen to anything she says unless its a request to act as her assistant" and think there isnt anything sketchy about that.
I only do that when im rereading the book because most of it was awesome,t here were just a few boring bits. Like in wheel of time when the story switches to someone I dont care about and im like, "Ok, lets get back to matt and see what happened to him THIS time!"Quote:
Originally Posted by georgie_leech
So i am the only one who liked the Ozymandia poster?
Nope -- I laughed out loud when I noticed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Well, this Taffy thing seems to be wrapping up a lot faster than I thought it would. :smallconfused:
It's been there for a while. Pretty sure it got discussed the first time it appeared.
I second this. Perrin also was interesting. Sadly, As Rand grew in power, the story around his character was getting a bit hard to read for me. Also, I got a kid and my reading time is nonexistent. :D So, the Fires of Heaven are half-read at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traab
I have neither the time nor the energy to respond to that entire post, but I'll spare some for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukkai
Hannelore is sex-repulsed, which stems from her touch aversion, which stems from her germophobia, which stems from her OCD.
And while asexuality and sex-repulsion tend to come together, it is possible to have one without the other. And in Hannelore's specific case, she has shown attraction and interest in other people, but her touch aversion/sex repulsion/germophobia/OCD has actively hindered her from pursuing those attractions beyond an aesthetic sense. That does not make her asexual.
By the way, that this kind of misinformation is often taken as hard fact is exactly the reason more stories portraying neurodivergence, marginalized orientations, and other genders need to be written.
yeah, but asexual is one word and fitted into my sentence :DQuote:
Originally Posted by John Cribati
I understand everything you said and you are correct. However, if I went so in-depth with every part of that post, it would have panned over several posts and I believe no one would have read it fully.
If anyone was misinformed by my "claim" that Hannelore is asexual instead of sex-repulsed, which stems from her touch aversion, which stems from her germophobia, which stems from her OCD, I apologise.
... You're under the impression that having more different types of people/relationships in the comic... makes it harder for the reader to identify with the characters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukkai
I would think it's the opposite. Of the subset of readers who can't identify with any character who doesn't match their sexual preferences... only straight people would have been able to identify with any major character except Tai early-on (and Tai wasn't all that early, the art-style had reached the modern one by the time she first turned up).
(also, that this counts as "wacky" somehow is just insulting.)
How are you defining "early"? Because as far as I can recall, Dora has been shown to be Bi almost since her introduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Originally, the complaint was that Jeph is neglecting long-running characters in interesting multidimensional relationships to spend a lot of time on newer characters not in relationships whose primary character trait is 'wacky'. In other words, people are relating to the long-running characters just fine, and want more of them. I have no idea how that was interpreted as "too many of the long-running characters' relationships are unconventional and that makes them hard to relate to."
Frankly, I find it hard to understand that interpretation as anything other than someone having an ax to grind about unconventional relationships making them uncomfortable, and projecting their discomfort onto others' unrelated criticisms.
I do not recall very much of the early comic (esp. pre-Hannelore), and was operating (inadvisably) from Dukkai's presentation of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
I do, be it words, sentences, paragraphs, or whole chapters. You don't really need to read everything to understand, and selective reading is always useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgie_leech
An example of chapters you can avoid reading: Frankenstein's English tour.
An example in comics: you can often ignore the first panel narration text in the early Schlock Mercenary strips.
As for the fact that the comic now almost exclusively portrays untraditional relationships, in the beginning I thought it was because Marten was a "safe" person for minorities to be around, as he came from a gay dad and a bsdm star mum. So a hub ended up building itself around him.
Well, that's just a fan rationalization. Now I don't see it that way anymore, mostly because some sexual minorities tend to build homogeneous communities, and I don't think any of the characters have talked about that. What I mean is that I don't believe that there is a purposeful attempt at a realistic portrayal.
Also, Pintsize is a MSM , since no one said it yet. :P
I think it's more that our characters are young progressives in a socially liberal city. Hipster coffee shops and liberal arts colleges tend to attract types of people who don't take issue with sexual minorities.
Well, yes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Like I said, that is just my impression. It can be wrong, of course. :) and like someone said, it could be just that the relationship problems are the same for any relationship so in the end it just does not matter what kind of relationships are portrayed. People can identify themselves with their problems, regardless of their relationship status.
On the other hand, it all depends on your surroundings as a reader since you read the comic from the lenses of your personal experience. I know a few gay couples and I literally do not know any transsexual person (other the father Kardashian) so a comic where relationships other than the straight ones are dominant is not something I can identify with. But, like you said, maybe that makes someone else identify with the comic a bit more. Lose some, gain some.
also, ffs, a relationship between an AI (Bubbles) and Faye is a bit wacky, however you put it :D and I can see the comic going into that direction :)
True. Nor should they.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy
It's not that one needs characters that one can identify with in order to connect with what's going on; it's that it makes it easier, and can keep one's attention even if what's going on, in and of itself, isn't all that interesting. This is a major problem with the Tilly story arc so far--the character isn't remotely relatable (at least to me), so we don't care about the story because of her, and the story arc isn't interesting or amusing (again, at least to me); rather, I find it annoying.
Also, relatability is a relative thing. Almost everyone will relate more easily to a character more like themselves, but that doesn't mean that, as a straight man, I can't relate to a gay or lesbian character. To be able to relate to them, though, I need to see them struggle with problems similar to what I have had to deal with. For example, Dora's relationship with Tai isn't any less relatable than her relationship with Marten, because she still struggles with her same control and trust issues.
Now, if a story is interesting enough, you don't need relatable characters. That's why I kept reading the Wheel of Time series--I didn't find any of the characters particularly relatable; in fact, I actively disliked most of them. But I thought the setting and story were interesting enough that I stuck with it despite the unattractive characters. Of course, what one finds interesting is highly subjective.
And, as I mentioned earlier, if a character is purely there as comic relief, they don't have to be relatable, as long as they're funny. I don't relate to Pintsize, but his wacky antics are (usually) genuinely funny, so it doesn't bother me when he shows up a lot. And, yes, what one finds funny is probably even more subjective that what one finds relatable.
To summarize: if you have relatable characters, you can get away with telling relatively uninteresting stories; if you are telling really interesting or funny stories, you can get away with having unrelatable characters, but you can't really get away with telling uninteresting, unfunny stories about unrelatable characters--you'll eventually lose your audience.
And none of this means that you can't relate to Tilly, and/or find her story interesting. Just that many of us don't.
No, I mean...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukkai
(assuming here you are straight)
There are still characters who match you. There are just now also characters who match other groups. And that makes it worse?
Transgender is the usually accepted term these days, not transsexual, for those reading.
My complaint about Taffy isn't even that she's mentally ill... it's that she's a design and some quirks that Jeph threw together with no attempt to actually make her an interesting character. Brun, who a lot of people don't like (although I do) is a reasonably realistic portrayal of a high functioning autistic person, even if she isn't particularly engaging for most readers. Taffy is... an annoying cut out that I feel is an excuse to use a cute design.
There being more and more characters that people who aren't neurotypical/straight/cis/whatever can relate too is great! There being characters that are 2 dimensional cut-outs to facilitate the use of a cute design and for gags are incredibly annoying.
OK, MAYBE Taffy or whatever will stop doing things that make us want to attack her with an eraser and remove her from the strip now. Maybe. We'll see. I hope so, this is arduous.
Note that even when being nice, Hanners is still calling her Taffy, so score a point for accidental.
Now see, something like this would have been useful like two weeks ago. If Taffy had explained that it was her first time as a PA when she introduced herself to Hannelore, she would have been a lot more sympathetic and relatable.
Instead we got... this.
Also, Steve. Steve was in there too. Can't forget Steve. Even if Jeph did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes
I think dps explained that better than me in the post above yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertystop
It is not only the characters, but the story itself. If the story isn't that interesting and it has with time less characters I can relate to, it loses my interest. That is why I said "lose some, gain some". Maybe in the end it will lose me as a reader, but, as you stated, it will attract other readers who can relate with those new characters or new character directions better.
Unfortunately, I'm not good at explaining, especially in foreign language, sorry if I wasn't clear at what I meant.
Welp, I called it. Tilly acts annoying and unprofessional, gets called out on it, turns on the water-works and for some reason the offended parties have to go out of their way to accommodate her because..... reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
Don't get me wrong; I am pretty much pro-"whatever moral or lifestyle this comic wants to promote". I like there being a huge and seldom explored cast; as much as I have my favourites, I greatly prefer seeing them only on occasion and enjoying their visits, rather than having them beaten like the proverbial dead horse. I enjoy that their experiences run the gamut of human emotion and capability, as it means there's always a new interaction to explore or message to divulge. Even if only in the context of butts.
Tilly is a yes-man, a corporate drone, who has only been an obstacle. I don't think she's even a figure of controversy like Brun, who at least provides a subject to discuss; she's just annoying and then is expecting to be given sympathy by the reader.
I'm sorry, Jeph; I just don't get what you're trying to do, unless in the next week or so you're going to have Tilly corrupted from a straight-laced, white collar goody-two-shoes into an ear-plugged, dyed-haired alternative lifestyler, like he did with Claire. And even then, you did that with Claire.... do we need to see it again with someone who we've no attachment?
I always found it weird that others seem to find characters like them more interesting, when it is an unusual trait you don't see often okay but when it just basically takes the form of "no unusual traits and some superficial similarities" you see that constantly. I consider anything relatable where the character motivations/feelings makes sense to me which doesn't require me do be like that myself and if they aren't relatable they still might be interesting. I agree that less interesting story can be compensated with good characters but my description of good tends to be likable or interesting and bad unlikable or annoying. Though I guess being like me can weaken some kinds of annoyingness, like I might be more patient with whining if I had similiar feeling before.
BEGONE DEMON YOUR EVIL AND TWISTED WAYS SHALL NOT CORRUPT US! Ahem that is to say wow I just don't do that, I skip things in factual books or papers but in stories I just don't. Well a few exception were I was plagued by strong enough Fremdschämen to skip the passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyadan
I can't spend the time to browse the earlier QC threads to check, but I have a strong hunch that any newly introduced character over the past few years was seen as annoying, 2-dimensional, boring, nonsensical, unfunny, and/or unrelatable for at least their first 10-20 pages. I have no idea if Tilly will turn out to be interesting, but I'm quite willing to give her (or, more to the point, the author) more time to show what she's about.Quote:
Originally Posted by eee
I think this just comes from Hannelore's mom calling her Taffy in the first place. Her mom just has this overwhelming, overbearing personality that Hannelore, a much softer person, finds hard to resist. Mom called her Taffy, she's Taffy in Hannelore's mind without even thinking about it. We saw an example of that same thing before, with Marten's mom - only Marten's mom got called out and apologized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes
Another example of that kind of power over others is with Tilly herself, carrying through Mrs Ellicott-Chatham's instructions well past the point of the absurd, and completely breaking down when having to face that absurdity.
100% agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrinar
I'm wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
Would Ms. Ellicott-Chatham entrust her daughter to an inexperienced, over-enthusiastic Personal Assistant wanna-be? Is it possible that Tilly is actually a master manipulator who hides her abilities behind an appearance of innocent bumbling? I note she IS accomplishing her goals, despite Hanners' opposition...