[Spell] Who is the lord, thy god?

Seek the Master
Divination
Level: Clr 3, Pal 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You sense the spiritual connection a creature has with a higher being, discerning the name of their chosen deity. If the being serves a set of ideals instead of a deity that is determined instead. Faithless beings are unaffected by this spell.

If the creature is controlled completely by the influence of another, such as a zombie or golem, the name of the master is given instead. This does not count towards creatures charmed or dominated in some manner.

The cleric of a deity can be sensed as such by the strength of their connection.

Nice one, if you just worship a pantheon, instead of a specific deity, would the spell tell you this?

Oh, and there seem to be a few words missing in between ‘chosen deity.’ and ‘An ideal or’

Should probably have a saving throw and/or a counter tactic (that is, another spell) that can falsify the information. You can't have people casting second-level spells to root out the local members of the Cult of Vecna.

It looks good, but you should probably have a caster level check against the level of a domination effect (as per Dispel Magic) to determine the controller.

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Nice one, if you just worship a pantheon, instead of a specific deity, would the spell tell you this?

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What, just 'good deities'?

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Should probably have a saving throw and/or a counter tactic (that is, another spell) that can falsify the information. You can't have people casting second-level spells to root out the local members of the Cult of Vecna.

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3rd level, but anything that messes with divination should effect this as normal. And you could just use a Detect Evil spell on the guy and know from his evil alignment that he ain't no follower of Pelor.

This is a bit more specific. And you can worship an evil god and still be neutral afterall.

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Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo

It looks good, but you should probably have a caster level check against the level of a domination effect (as per Dispel Magic) to determine the controller.

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It says the spell does not work towards dominated creatures.

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

3rd level, but anything that messes with divination should effect this as normal.

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Should, but the way it's worded, few normal measures do it.

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Originally Posted by SRD

Mind Shielding: This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.
Faint aburation; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, nondetection; Price 8,000 gp.

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(Emphasis added)
This isn't in that list. You're not discerning the alignment of the target, nor are you using one of the two listed spells.


The Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location acts as the spell, Nondetection, which protects against "divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells" and "location by such magic items as crystal balls" - this spell isn't in those categories.

Misdirection doesn't work - it only functions on things that "reveal auras", and this spell makes no mention of them.

Mind blank will work - it's information gathering by a divination spell or effect. But nothing short of that... as written.

I wonder if this spell would reveal the true names of certain gods, demons, and other extraplanar creatures who keep servants around, but don't like their names being thrown all over the place. Perhaps a "partial" save that would instead reveal a pseudonym of the master's choosing (or a random one, either or)?

What happens if you look at a deity with this spell? Hopefully, you already know who they are, of course, but what happens? Do they count at faithless? Do you find out who the real gods are? Does the spell burn out, because of the amount of divine power?

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

What, just 'good deities'?

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Well, no; I have two separate pantheons that both receive worship in my world, and I think that's the kind of thing that was being asked about. But it's an easy enough thing to rule on without any change to the spell: a generic peasant-worshipper who doesn't hold an allegiance to any one deity could be picked up as a worshipper of the Greenlords or the Aori in general by this spell.

EDIT: I like the spell, by the way; it makes a lot of sense.

Martyboy74: Just a guess, so VT will have to rule on it, but I would guess that if you use this on a deity with a Divine Rank below Greater, you would get the name of the next higher god in the chain. Doing this to Ilmater or Torm would get you 'Tyr'. Doing it to Mishakal would get you 'Paladine'.

Well, what spells do you think should counter this, Jack?

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Originally Posted by Portent

I wonder if this spell would reveal the true names of certain gods, demons, and other extraplanar creatures who keep servants around, but don't like their names being thrown all over the place. Perhaps a "partial" save that would instead reveal a pseudonym of the master's choosing (or a random one, either or)?

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I suppose, but the problem with a save is that there is nothing for the target to make a save against. You are sensing the deity... which could probably make any save.

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What happens if you look at a deity with this spell?

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Err, well, its so unlikely that you will literally be standing before a deity as to cast this spell upon him that its not really worth considering.

But, if you like, I'd say it doesn't do a thing, as deities rarely worship other deities.

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Well, what spells do you think should counter this, Jack?

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Not sure, but it needs something that can counter it which is within a level or two of itself - Resist Energy can counter Scorching Ray fairly effectively, after all, and Protection From Energy does wonders against a Fireball.... maybe just including some flavortext about it reading the subject's aura.

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

I suppose, but the problem with a save is that there is nothing for the target to make a save against. You are sensing the deity... which could probably make any save.

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Ah, you're sensing the target's connection with it's diety, not the diety itself (after all, it's Target: One Creature - if it's targetting the Diety, you're basically always out of range; if you're targetting the creature, then you're extracting information from it in some way .... a "will partial, see text" would go a long way; perhaps similar to Detect Thoughs - if they succeed on the Will save, you find out whether or not they have a diety (Detect Thoughts, even on a successful save, lets you know where the thinking beings are), if they fail, you know the name that the worshipper most often uses for the diety (not necessarily the true name).

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Err, well, its so unlikely that you will literally be standing before a deity as to cast this spell upon him that its not really worth considering.

But, if you like, I'd say it doesn't do a thing, as deities rarely worship other deities.

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Nah, it just gives the name of the diety you're targetting (it reads their connection to themselves).

Perhaps it should have some expensive material components to compensate for the potential of misuse.

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Originally Posted by Gezina

Nice one, if you just worship a pantheon, instead of a specific deity, would the spell tell you this?

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Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

What, just 'good deities'?

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In Deities and Demigods, some rules were laid out to have someone worship a pantheon of gods rather than a single one (generally when you're using multiple tight pantheons in a game world; the OotS world is actually a good example). I think that in such a case, the spell would just indicate that the target worshipped the pantheon (eg. using it on Miko might give you "the Southern Gods" or something similar). If the character has a specific patron deity but does worship the other gods in a pantheon in certain circumstances, I think it should show that as well (eg. if you used it on a king who counted Zeus as his patron but also paid homage to the other Norse gods in their specific areas of expertise, it would show Zeus/Greek).

Aren't we thinking a little bit universal here? I mean, for someone from ancient Greece or, for that mather, most ancient cultures, it would be less a mather of faith. Even moreso in a D&D world. The gods are there, no discussion. But they are not the center of your life, the meaninggiver most monotheistic gods are. "I die for Zeus now!" would sound ridiculous. The gods are not the center of your life, they are higher beings that can have a great influence on your life, so you'd better keep them friendly. And it's not a 'my religion is the only one', but more 'there are gods'. If you are sure the gods are there, you don't have to put it in the center of your life and make it shape your life. In D&D people have the urge to treat polytheistic religion like they are used to treat religion - something of a private fate that is held dear. I think you better look at it without all the things you associate with religion - hell, just don't call it religion if that makes it easier, call it 'acknowledging the gods are there (like, duh) and that you'd better appease them if you want something from them (like, duh)'. The whole 'loyalty to a (set of) god(s) seems out of place most of the time.

Hmm, sorry, I went a bit off-topic, I guess. :smalleek: This was mostly a reaction to 'you can worship a pantheon to', since it's not really 'my pantheon it the REAL pantheon, yours sucks', but 'there are gods and these are the ones I know (and that have most power in my land)'.

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Originally Posted by Maglor_Grubb

Aren't we thinking a little bit universal here? I mean, for someone from ancient Greece or, for that mather, most ancient cultures, it would be less a mather of faith. Even moreso in a D&D world. The gods are there, no discussion. But they are not the center of your life, the meaninggiver most monotheistic gods are. "I die for Zeus now!" would sound ridiculous. The gods are not the center of your life, they are higher beings that can have a great influence on your life, so you'd better keep them friendly. And it's not a 'my religion is the only one', but more 'there are gods'. If you are sure the gods are there, you don't have to put it in the center of your life and make it shape your life. In D&D people have the urge to treat polytheistic religion like they are used to treat religion - something of a private fate that is held dear. I think you better look at it without all the things you associate with religion - hell, just don't call it religion if that makes it easier, call it 'acknowledging the gods are there (like, duh) and that you'd better appease them if you want something from them (like, duh)'. The whole 'loyalty to a (set of) god(s) seems out of place most of the time.

Hmm, sorry, I went a bit off-topic, I guess. :smalleek: This was mostly a reaction to 'you can worship a pantheon to', since it's not really 'my pantheon it the REAL pantheon, yours sucks', but 'there are gods and these are the ones I know (and that have most power in my land)'.

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One word: Afterlife. With a Roman-style afterlife, you don't have much reason to worship any god in particular, since you still go to the same place when you die. With a monothestic-style afterlife, worshipping the wrong god means your afterlife is really unenviable. With a Faerun-style afterlife, not worshipping a god means that your afterlife is really unenviable.