Implication of Teleportation

Sorry if this has already been discussed. I looked and didn't see it.

It just occurred to me the other day that there wasn't a thunderclap in the apartment when Parson teleported out. (I justify the delay with the observation that absences are harder to notice than presences.) After some research, I see now that it's not as significant as I supposed. Apparently, loud booms are caused by expansion waves, not by vacuums being filled. I guess that explains why there's a big bang when you pop a balloon and not when you open a vacuum-sealed container.

Still, supposing that it would be fatal to merge with a body volume of air, a vacuum must've been created on the receiving end for Parson to fill. The spell could've shoved the air out of the way, or it could've done a simultaneous exchange of equal volumes. In the latter case, the gamers back in Parson's apartment would've been left smelling the chamber in Stanley's castle where the spell was cast. I thought that was an interesting possibility.

Or it could be MAGIC! Let's not discount that theory!

Oh, damn, dead catgirl.

Anyway, it probably just created new air and such. Teleportation is funky like that.

I just realized that although my initial expectation about the apartment end was wrong, it could've created a thunderclap on the castle end if it pushed the air out of the way instead of doing an exchange.

Or, yeah, magic, it could've just destroyed the air that was in the way, but where's the fun in that? :smalltongue:

Don't really think that superimposing a person over atmospher would be that problematic, unless their was a significant presure difference from where you where going from to where you going to.

Their's not that much to air really.

Logos

Maybe it took a Parson volume chunk of Erfworld air over to the real world in exchange for a Parson shaped and sized Parson going to Erfworld? Then there's no change in pressure at all, except for the one that involves Parson having to win a battle at 10 to 1 troop differencial. :p

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Originally Posted by Brickwall

Or it could be MAGIC! Let's not discount that theory!

Oh, damn, dead catgirl.

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Well, the age old "but it's fantasy/magic" saw didn't take long to pop up. Of course it's magic, don't be a twit. The purpose of the thread isn't to discount the fantasy aspect and replace it with pseudoscience, it's to speculate on what happens at the point where the magic ends and physics has to take over. Physics does apply to some extent in every fantasy setting I've ever seen. Coming up with magical replacements for things like gravity and inertia would be terribly inconvenient.

Magic from Erf just took a Parson-sized chunk of matter from Earth. While creation of matter may be just fine in a world that has magic capable of sidestepping physics, Earth is effecitvely nonmagical, and it just lost matter. That's not possible in it's universe, so Erf would have had to have given it replacement matter or energy. It does appear that in Parson's wake there was a burst of light and some sound, plus possible ozone or other gases that disappated quickly. Maybe the light- and sound- show Erfside was more spectacular because it takes a great deal of magical force to push the dimensional hole open into a nonmagical universe and switch the desired packets of matter and/or energy.

Hmm, you know, I don't think Findamancers are analogous to Diviners at all... they're Conjurers.

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Originally Posted by Logos7

Don't really think that superimposing a person over atmospher would be that problematic, unless their was a significant presure difference from where you where going from to where you going to.

Their's not that much to air really.

Logos

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A mystery/thriller trope for undetectable assassinations is injecting someone with a syringe full of air. (I'm not going take the time to research whether it really works like that.) Similarly, my understanding is that the bends (which I'm not going to research either) is caused by nitrogen, dissolved in the blood under the high pressure of a deep dive, bubbling out from a rapid ascent like when a carbonated soda is opened.

Those both just involve a relatively small amount of air in your blood. Even if it's evenly distributed throughout your body, I'm pretty confident that suddenly mixing an equal volume of STP air into your body would kill you.

So, I count five possibilities:

1. The person being teleported dies from suddenly having a large amount of air dispersed throughout every part of his or her body. Gruesome!
2. The air that is in the way of the arrival is simultaneously exchanged with the person being teleported, causing the odors of the destination to be smelled by those left behind. Mysterious!
3. The air that is in the way of the arrival is simultaneously pushed out of the way to create a vacuum for the person to appear in. The resulting shockwave of compressed air causes his or her appearance to be heralded by a thunderclap. Dramatic!
4. The air that is in the way of the arrival is magically destroyed. Supernatural!
5. The air that is in the way of the arrival is converted into energy to power the spell. Einsteinian!

A story is an exercise in selective attention. Writers have to choose which events they will show the implications of. I happen to find teleportation interesting, so I would work in one of those implications if I ever wrote a story where someone teleported. That is all. :smallcool:

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Originally Posted by Thanatos

Hmm, you know, I don't think Findamancers are analogous to Diviners at all... they're Conjurers.

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I agree. Wanda said that the spell was co-forged with the Predictamancers. They sound more like Diviners to me than the Findamancers do.

Well, it did make a rather loud and distinct sound: "plot". That is the sound of that air and mass being displaced, on the receiving end as it rushes to fill the space, and on the arriving end as ... I dunno, probably the spell moves it aside for Parson.

But Thanatos, don't get all offended, Brickwall is pretty correct. It's magic. If the spell can teleport a guy across dimensions, whose to say it doesn't affect trivial things like the movement of the gas he displaces.

Well, parson came from a normal non magical place, with laws of physics and the like, so lets for a minute just say that the magic of erfworld cant necessarily change the laws of physics present in parsons world.

If thats true then the transfer of air equal to the volume of parson from erfworld to earth in exchange for his body is impossible. matter cannot be destroyed or lost in our universe, it can be changed to energy, but not be lost. Therefor, for this to work , air equal to the mass of parson would have to be transfered, which to say is probably more air then was in the entire room, which would have resulted in an instant roomwide vaccuum on erfworld side, and a extreme increase of pressure on the opposite side. Technically its probably possible instead that the big PLOT and flash of light was somehow equal to the extra mass that should have been there but i doubt it cause the amount of energy needed would be equal to quite a few nuclear bombs wouldnt it?

again magic could be used to answer the question , i mean you cant argue with that but its still interesting to think about

Well, if you're going to invoke the Laws of Thermodynamics on me then I would have to argue that teleporting Parson away from our universe is nearly impossible. In any case the rule that energy can be neither created nor destroyed probably wouldn't apply in cases where two multiverses were connected long enough to transport across the mass of one semiadult human being. In that case it would make more sense to count both the total energies of the combined multiverses and call that sum conserved.

The only way I could think to make teleportation possible (at least the disappearance part) would be a mass enchange of virtual particles with a probability of him surviving making the odds of winning the lottery every week for your entire life look pretty likely. It would also imply that Parson never left. He and the atoms that make up that hamster shirt just dissolved, losing protons and becoming the air itself.

I have the explanation.

Somewhere, in some third dimension, a massive, spontaneous explosion happened. >.>

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Originally Posted by Erk

Well, it did make a rather loud and distinct sound: "plot". That is the sound of that air and mass being displaced, on the receiving end as it rushes to fill the space, and on the arriving end as ... I dunno, probably the spell moves it aside for Parson.

But Thanatos, don't get all offended, Brickwall is pretty correct. It's magic. If the spell can teleport a guy across dimensions, whose to say it doesn't affect trivial things like the movement of the gas he displaces.

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Actually, I suspect that PLOT is the sound of all the physics questions involved in the teleportation being neatly taken care of in whatever way is most convenient to the story at the time. If that explanation happens to be displacement, fine. If it happens to be swapping of matter, okay. If it's the sound of a local violation of conservation of energy laws, so be it. The PLOT will clean up after it.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...icscatgirl.jpg

When will you people learn? There can't be an infinite catgirl population.


Trying to apply conservation of mass to a magical effect in a fantasy world being used as the setting for a fictional webcomic is just futile.

Especially since the creators of all three were completely unconcerned with how this particular plot device might, or might not, affect the real world were it to ever actually occur.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...icscatgirl.jpg

When will you people learn? There can't be an infinite catgirl population.


Trying to apply conservation of mass to a magical effect in a fantasy world being used as the setting for a fictional webcomic is just futile.

Especially since the creators of all three were completely unconcerned with how this particular plot device might, or might not, affect the real world were it to ever actually occur.

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Ah, I see now. So this thread is all a polt to get Ego.

In a complete knowledge of the number of catgirls I'm killing, Parson's apartment and the summoning room are at a very similar altitude. If they were way off or one planet had a far thicker atmosphere, then Parson's ears would really hurt, before they equalized.

So yeah.

The spell may have compensated for thunderclap possibilities by slowing the spell down, allowing the air to diffuse into the room. (-1 catgirl)

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Originally Posted by FlyMolo

In a complete knowledge of the number of catgirls I'm killing, Parson's apartment and the summoning room are at a very similar altitude. If they were way off or one planet had a far thicker atmosphere, then Parson's ears would really hurt, before they equalized.

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Well, he did have a really bad headache to begin with, didn't he? Perhaps it was due to his ears?

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Originally Posted by Azrael

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...icscatgirl.jpg

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Every time you try to drag fantasy catgirls into a discussion about real physics, the Snarl kills another god.

Please, think of the gods!

This message brought to you by the Olympia Club and World Wildgod Foundation, dedicated to the preservation of endangered dieties everywhere. Find out how you can do your part to help by praying to Maeldiskiekof, the obscure, almost-dead god of knowing how you can do your part to help!

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Originally Posted by Scientivore

Every time you try to drag fantasy catgirls into a discussion about real physics...

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Seriously, there is no real physics in a discussion about a teleportation spell. But I'll concede a clever rebuttal.

Yeah, reminding people it's fantasy is so insighful and clever.

If you don't want to discuss it, you could just leave the thread, instead of posting what amounts to telling everyone to shut up.

You guys might be surprised at how much I have thought about things like this. This is my favorite thread right now.

There are answers to these questions. Trust me. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Seriously, there is no real physics in a discussion about a teleportation spell. But I'll concede a clever rebuttal.

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I think that real physics must begin where the transportation spell ends and I'll take clever if that's all I can get. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Scientivore

A mystery/thriller trope for undetectable assassinations is injecting someone with a syringe full of air. (I'm not going take the time to research whether it really works like that.)

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Well, I did check...
(Hey, I'm Thanatos, excuse me if I'm a bit morbid.)

From the alt.suicide.holiday methods file:

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Air in veins (basically just a myth)
Time: Couple of minutes claimed
Available: Plenty of air about... Need a hypodermic & syringe
Certainty: only 1 known case.. patient may already have been dead
Notes: The only case I know about, it killed with 40cc of air. Smaller amounts are harmless. The case was the death of Abbie Borroto, who died in 1950 from a 40cc injection in New Hampshire. She died in minutes. This was the 1949 Dr H Sander case. He was found not guilty to murder on the grounds that the patient may already have been dead when he gave the injection. (A doctor and a nurse could find no pulse earlier the same day). The following 2 quotes are from [1]: Prof. Y Kenis says: "... not a suitable method, nor a gentle death... extremely difficult to utilize as a method of suicide. .. possibly with very serious consequences, such as paralysis or permanent brain damage. .. this is only an impression, and I have no real scientific information on the subject." Dr Pieter V Admiraal .. describes the theoretical air bubble method of suicide as impossible, disagreeable and cruel. "To kill somebody with air you would have to inject at least 100 -> 200 millilitres as quickly as possible in a vein as big as possible close to the heart. You would have to fill the whole heart with air at once. The heart would probably beat on for several minutes, perhaps 5 -> 15 minutes, and during the first minutes the person may be conscious."

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I don't really recommend any method... but if someone is determined to croak, this would be extra not-recommended.

actually, i like whoever said that parson didnt actually travel anywhere, that instead he just kind of...dissolves on one end , his matter being broken down into air and steam, maybe some dust, the spell itself takes parsons information from earth, the placement and composition of all the matter in his body, takes that information, and from the air and particles in the destination room in erfworld recreates him from scratch, exactly as he was. that way no real change takes place on earth except for the abbrupt change in the state of parsons body and only information is exchanged between worlds...

in fact thats how transporting would work in our world if we had the technology to do it ,but magic works too.

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Originally Posted by pclips

You guys might be surprised at how much I have thought about things like this. This is my favorite thread right now.

There are answers to these questions. Trust me. :smallwink:

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Aw jeez, nevermind. Unless you have a thing against catgirls too.

The possibility that no one (ever) seems to like when dealing with teleport spells is the airplane analogy. I can fly from New York to Sydney in what was once considered an impossible fashion in an impossibly short period of time. No vacuums, no conservation of mass issues there. (And it brings up Clarke's Law, yay!) What if a teleport spell was just an even faster effect similar to (our) mundane travel, powered by magic rather than jet fuel?

Since Erfworld is (at the moment) a fairly well established element of Parson's game world, there's no saying it lies across any sort of real boundary where conservation of mass has difficulty applying normally. Parson's RL space could easily filled like a vacuum closes in the space behind a quickly moving train. We know we can leave the planet or the solar system without breaking conservation of mass, so if we take the next step of accepting the existence of alternate realities, who says we can't cross those boundaries just as easily?

An even more physics-catgirl-killing (damn you Rob) line of thought would surround the potential effects of Parson now (maybe, depending on your view of Erfworld) being something close to the size of a DnD minature. Transportation is easy to explain way. How about shrinking?

I kinda like the idea of recreating another Parson in Erfworld, because that would easily explain the glowing blue residue. It's Parson bits, disintegrating.

That has always been somewhat unsettling, regarding the transporter travel concept. You're effectively killing someone and creating a duplicate each time. A person may be more than a sum of their parts (or they may not be), but those parts still define them to some extent. If someone dies, but you're able to recreate them from stored information, then are they resurrected? What if you use the information to create a copy without ever dissolving the first? The copy becomes something like an identical twin that has shared the same experiences up to that point, but which would differentiate from there. If you had no way to know which was the original, would they both legitimately be the same person? If abuses of the system create those kinds of questions, what's really the difference between that and a transport that works as planned? Have you not killed and then "cloned" the person?

Any society that would use such a process would have to be an atheist one, or heavily-skeptical agnostic at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Thanatos

That has always been somewhat unsettling, regarding the transporter travel concept. You're effectively killing someone and creating a duplicate each time. A person may be more than a sum of their parts (or they may not be), but those parts still define them to some extent. If someone dies, but you're able to recreate them from stored information, then are they resurrected? What if you use the information to create a copy without ever dissolving the first? The copy becomes something like an identical twin that has shared the same experiences up to that point, but which would differentiate from there. If you had no way to know which was the original, would they both legitimately be the same person? If abuses of the system create those kinds of questions, what's really the difference between that and a transport that works as planned? Have you not killed and then "cloned" the person?

Any society that would use such a process would have to be an atheist one, or heavily-skeptical agnostic at the very least.

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Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl took on those questions in the two-book series "The Saga of Cuckoo." They combined it quite nicely with the concept of interstellar civilizations without FTL travel (but with instant communication "ansible" tech). Basically all worlds had these duplicators, and to travel to one, you stepped in a booth on your home world and either stepped right out again and resumed your life, or stepped on to the surface of an alien world as an exact copy of yourself, forever to stay there. It was some of the best hard SF I've ever read.

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Originally Posted by pclips

Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl took on those questions in the two-book series "The Saga of Cuckoo." They combined it quite nicely with the concept of interstellar civilizations without FTL travel (but with instant communication "ansible" tech). Basically all worlds had these duplicators, and to travel to one, you stepped in a booth on your home world and either stepped right out again and resumed your life, or stepped on to the surface of an alien world as an exact copy of yourself, forever to stay there. It was some of the best hard SF I've ever read.

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Heh, these days it's all about the special effects. Original sci-fi is as much about philosophy as it is scientific possibility. I enjoy Star Wars style space-fantasy as much as most, and I like sword & sorcery fantasy too of course, but it seems they don't often go beyond the regular Hero's Journey storytelling model. One of the things I like about Eberron is that in some ways it approaches magic from a sci-fi mindset, and explores the social and ethical implications of it's use. Although warforged are more golem than robot, most of the questions about their nature are parallel to stuff from Asimov.

Anyway, while I don't expect such things to necessarily come up in Erf, it's cool to know that you've given some thought to them.