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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serpentine
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
It's natural overreaction. It is easy to rail against everyone in a group, rather than rationally say "no, it's just that one person" and possibly have to accept one's own fault. The trick comes in handling the cool-down from that overreaction well and remembering that "all women are horrible" is as untrue as "all men are horrible" or "all Germans are nazis" or something equally terrible (and yes, I've heard all of the above :smallsigh:).
Oh, and yes, women do it too. I've both seen it and been the victim of it. Sure, anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but there you have it.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serpentine
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
I've seen both, as well as only slightly more nuanced versions. (E.G: "No more musicians, ever!") The reason is human pattern recognition, with a dash of ego salving mixed in; if the major common thread amongst all the people who treated you wrong is vaginas, you're more likely to blame vagnia-havers than the other common thread, which is yourself.
Think sour grapesiness. It's not too far from that conceptual area.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serpentine
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
It happens. In a deeply hurt emotional state, it's easy to say that nothing is YOUR fault, that everything was THEIR fault, and it happens to be even worse because ALL OF THE OTHER GENDER IS OUT TO GET ME!
This is a bit of a grandiose oversimplification, but my point is still essentially true.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arguskos
Sure, anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but there you have it.
Eh, mine's all anecdotal too. It's all we've got.
An overreaction to a hurt emotional state is all well and good, but every time I've seen it, it goes on for so long - as in months, or years. Or it just changes their view of women forever.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Look at some of the forever-alones in this thread. Women clearly only have curves and boobs to tantalize them, and then cruelly refuse to share.
Extended low-level rejection is the real culprit. And cuts every way. The exceptional cases are just the ones pointed to to rationalize the feelings.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Your last sentence is confusingly ambiguous. Clarify?
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Let's take the dumpy chick in high school. Most boys don't even know she exists. One sadist plays her and makes her a laughingstock.
The real issue is "people who I want don't notice me", and rejection stings. The one A-hole is what all those hurt feelings crystallize around, and what's pointed to even if it's a distraction.
It's the low-level constant failure that really grinds, though. Any other explanation is just a cover.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Ah, I think I get you now.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Logic
It happens. In a deeply hurt emotional state, it's easy to say that nothing is YOUR fault, that everything was THEIR fault, and it happens to be even worse because ALL OF THE OTHER GENDER IS OUT TO GET ME!
This is a bit of a grandiose oversimplification, but my point is still essentially true.
I think that that blame can go both ways, depending on what emotion dominates. If anger prevails then I imagine one's much more inclined to blame everybody else, but if depression prevails then I think one'd be more inclined to place all the blame on oneself.
Or maybe it's a complicated mix of both. It seems to me a lot of these type of questions/situations would benefit from considerable psychological expertise in order to truly understand the psychology behind it.
Also, it can be really difficult not to become bitter and cynical if one experiences (almost) nothing but rejection and failure. Trying to maintain hope and optimism in the face of constant negative reinforcement is not easy.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Form
Also, it can be really difficult not to become bitter and cynical if one experiences (almost) nothing but rejection and failure. Trying to maintain hope and optimism in the face of constant negative reinforcement is not easy.
This. So much of this.
Part of the problem is that different people have different thresholds for the point where they stop trying. Not through laziness or apathy (although it can be a little of that) but some folks have more naturally resiliant personalities than others.
People need something to give them hope - a compliment, a hug, or just someone they can turn to when they fall off the horse for what seems like the hundredth time.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I have heard that men tend to suffer more from the end of a serious relationship than women, because they have more invested in it relative to other friendships, and because men aren't encouraged to talk about their feelings, so they internalise the hurt.
Especially if they then struggle to find another relationship (and especially especially if their former partner seems to get over it quickly and starts seeing someone else) this gets magnified. Then once it's been repeated a couple of times it's a question of pattern recognition.
The conclusion is, obviously, no more valid than assuming all men are monsters because of $SomeJerk, but I can see how they reach it. As with the "women like bad boys" stereotype, there might also be a tendency for men who've been hurt to seek out (deliberately or no) people who remind them of what they've lost - who'll be similar to the person who hurt them and thus more likely to hurt them again.
Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Form
Also, it can be really difficult not to become bitter and cynical if one experiences (almost) nothing but rejection and failure. Trying to maintain hope and optimism in the face of constant negative reinforcement is not easy.
Yup.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sholos
Mostly I just want to stop worrying about romantic notions.
Spoiler
Show
Castration. Either that or become seriously involved with a hobby almost to the point where nothing else matters. Only two options I've heard of that work.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sholos
Mostly I just want to stop worrying about romantic notions.
Well, to really avoid it you would have to make a rather large effort. A small social circle would be best just as people who know you and know you are not interested would be a start. Avoid "meet up/meat market" type places. Taken to an extreme you could choose to live online. On a more practical note learn the normal cues of flirtation (eye contact patterns, creating space for people to move into during a conversation, pointing you feet at someone during conversation where you don't have to etc) and avoid it. Stiff or very relaxed posture generally helps that. hmmm....are you still in school?
And Serp. I'd agree with the above that women do the "all males are (insert curse word de jour)" as much as guys
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serpentine
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
Was this comment sparked by my post? If so, that's not what I'm doing. I'm simply overworried about being in a relationship and trying to figure out how not to hate myself for being completely unable to find and attract someone. I still want to be in a relationship, but I want to stop worrying about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sktarq
Well, to really avoid it you would have to make a rather large effort. A small social circle would be best just as people who know you and know you are not interested would be a start. Avoid "meet up/meat market" type places. Taken to an extreme you could choose to live online. On a more practical note learn the normal cues of flirtation (eye contact patterns, creating space for people to move into during a conversation, pointing you feet at someone during conversation where you don't have to etc) and avoid it. Stiff or very relaxed posture generally helps that. hmmm....are you still in school?
Like I said to Serp, I don't want to avoid a relationship. I'm just trying to figure out how not to worry about it and relax.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Oh, that's a . . . horse of a different colour.
To start, goals. set goals of what you want your life to look like with irrespective of a relationships. Could be everything from fixing up the house, career or education work etc. For a lot of people their relationship is the maintence and price reason they go to work etc. Make sure you have something.
Socially try to work up guys night out or something were you can be social without romantic relationship pairings dominating the dynamic of the social order. Guys night out works, clubs, or even running your own roleplaying game. Something to keep you socially satisfied and not feeling like you are missing out.
A pet. depending on your situation (living set up) you may or may not be able to use this one. But having a dog or a cat can be very helpful. Someone that greets you when you come home, a source of cuddles, someone that depends on you are all helpful things. Esp a bachalor (or bachalorette for those ladies reading the thread).
Finnally solitary hobbies. Crafts, Reading, writing for your RPG (the game not grenade), stuff that makes you feel productive and happy without needing an audience or someone to share thing with. Cooking and movies are not ones I'd recomend as cooking often mmakes you want to share as it can be hard to find single portion recipies that work well and movies etc half the fun is the chat afterward for many people.
hmmm. . .all I got at the moment.
g'luck on that
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Originally Posted by
The Succubus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Form
Also, it can be really difficult not to become bitter and cynical if one experiences (almost) nothing but rejection and failure. Trying to maintain hope and optimism in the face of constant negative reinforcement is not easy.
People need something to give them hope - a compliment, a hug, or just someone they can turn to when they fall off the horse for what seems like the hundredth time.
I'd really want to agree with you but the ton of compliments about how great a SO you'd be, for someone else, is actually worse. at least IMH
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sktarq
I'd really want to agree with you but the ton of compliments about how great a SO you'd be, for someone else, is actually worse. at least IMH
There's a big difference between overinflating someone's ego and giving them a little boost or some support.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Form
There's a big difference between overinflating someone's ego and giving them a little boost or some support.
This page and the next. When you've been down the lonely hearts road, you start seeing these things as cliches and blowoffs.
(In fact, the whole comic is good. Not healthy, but honest in that adolescent way that we're not supposed to feel but that we all do.)
As to Sholos, while a pet is a good idea if he has the temperament and opportunity (I tried one and it was a mismatch, the guy I gave it to couldn't be happier), the big thing is to try running in other groups where he can reinvent himself. He seems to have positioned himself as an eternal omega. Going out and doing different things with different people can at least allow him to try on different roles. Ideally either in theater or something more geek-related; the former because it's all about trying on different personalties, the latter because he'll be in his idiom and thus have more reason to speak up.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Serpentine
So what is it with guys and going from "this girl hurt me" to "all women are horrible"?
I'm well aware that it's no doubt a tiny minority of guys who do it, and I'm sure there's women who do it to, but I've never seen a girl get so suddenly and nastily hateful. Although I suppose I might've just missed it *shrug*
You can frequently hear a girl who's just gone through a bad breakup or something talking about how men are pigs and they're all terrible people and deserve to die. I think both groups do it, and it's a natural tendency to generalise to the entire group rather than specifically blaming somebody you had/have strong feelings for.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reluctance
This page and the next. When you've been down the lonely hearts road, you start seeing these things as cliches and blowoffs.
I can't argue with that. After a while that stuff just doesn't cut it anymore and I don't have any idea what would.
Quote:
(In fact, the whole comic is good. Not healthy, but honest in that adolescent way that we're not supposed to feel but that we all do.)
It's a really depressing comic, isn't it? Ah, nevermind, I'll probably check it out anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noparlpf
You can frequently hear a girl who's just gone through a bad breakup or something talking about how men are pigs and they're all terrible people and deserve to die. I think both groups do it, and it's a natural tendency to generalise to the entire group rather than specifically blaming somebody you had/have strong feelings for.
I also think we ought to give people a bit of leeway right after a bad breakup (up to a certain point of course). People often say things under emotional duress that they don't really mean as a means of venting.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Just had a tangential thought. Find some Men's Right's Movement or seduction community blogs, and read through the comments. Then find some feminist blogs, and read through the comments.
Most people, will have the occasional bitterness-induced period where they hate on (insert large group here) to diffuse their feelings of anger at one person or a small group of people. The examples I listed above are what happens when that's allowed to fester and find a community to reinforce itself. So while the process itself is human nature, how does one short-circuit it on either the individual or self-reinforcing community level.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Well, I'm pretty much hating everyone.
So, uh, does that count?
I just feel angry all the time. All the time. Or soul crushingly sad.
Sometimes, I'll find myself in this pit of self-pitying, wondering what more I could have done or why I wasn't enough and I'm just pretty much miserable.
Everyone keeps telling me I deserved better, or that it will pas with time, and it just feels like it won't. Like this will be a constant pain for the rest of my life.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
RHL. Comic I linked to. Stat. For some reason, watching other people's reactions to similarly messy breakups is one of the most cathartic ways to help process your own.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RabbitHoleLost
Well.... Like this will be a constant pain for the rest of my life.
Step one. Find and play with a puppy, dog, or kitten. Anything you can't possibly stay mad at for more than 10 seconds even if they ruin your shoes.
Yep, this part sucks. You can hear and even agree with all the logic in the world but this is an emotional reaction. You've heard it before. It will take time. It will be a sore point for a while, but each day you'll get on with things a bit more, enjoy things a bit more, think about him a bit less. This part is what all the friends getting you to do stuff is really good for. Go off and vent at the boxing club, shooting range, mountain top or whatever and then come back to them.
in the meantime *hug*
now go find that puppy
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reluctance
This page and the next. When you've been down the lonely hearts road, you start seeing these things as cliches and blowoffs.
(In fact, the whole comic is good. Not healthy, but honest in that adolescent way that we're not supposed to feel but that we all do.)
And even sooner you start wondering that if you're so great, why hasn't anyone jumped you yet.
Quote:
As to Sholos, while a pet is a good idea if he has the temperament and opportunity (I tried one and it was a mismatch, the guy I gave it to couldn't be happier), the big thing is to try running in other groups where he can reinvent himself. He seems to have positioned himself as an eternal omega. Going out and doing different things with different people can at least allow him to try on different roles. Ideally either in theater or something more geek-related; the former because it's all about trying on different personalties, the latter because he'll be in his idiom and thus have more reason to speak up.
I could do a pet, but my lease doesn't allow it. What is this "omega" you speak of?
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sholos
I could do a pet, but my lease doesn't allow it. What is this "omega" you speak of?
If you're still at UVa, the local SPCA is (fairly) easy to get to by bus and always accepts volunteers to walk dogs or socialise cats. Helped me a hell of a lot when I was in high school.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
So... slight question here.
Alright I am involved with a girl, who is rather.. Pious. Her family is also pious. I can't be within listening distance without hearing "god" at least twice.
Every time I've been over to her house to watch a movie or for a dinner or something, I have never once heard her mother and stepfather talk about anything aside from family and religion.
She herself is less single topiced, but she too is a bit more religious than average. But this normally only comes out under stress.
Now me? I'm quite simply not. I've been catholic, I've been atheist, I've been new age wizardy pagan, until I've finally settled on a bunch of superstitions on my part. Basically luck and a few other things.
That's about the extent of my religiousness.
This hasn't really come up so far. But I've been rather worried about it and wanted to get it off my chest.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
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Originally Posted by
Sholos
What is this "omega" you speak of?
Wikipedia knows all and tells all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
druid91
So... slight question here.
...
This hasn't really come up so far. But I've been rather worried about it and wanted to get it off my chest.
The stereotypes about girls from heavily religious families? There's a reason they're more common than "girls from religious families have halos and wings". Parents might will become an issue, but don't sweat it if it's a nonissue with her.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Church girls are one thing. Many are, in fact, as society says (my experience is with Jamaican church girls and they throw dancehall grinding parties at the drop of a hat). Church parents? May [DEITY] have mercy on your soul. Because even though I'm highly religious... if my family is any indication, you'd better abandon ship before you get too attached. Or convert. :smallbiggrin:
No, seriously, i somehow caused a "bible verses being yelled across the room" level debate by saying that I have little interest in hitting on a girl I hadn't even met yet (long story).
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Herpestidae
No, seriously, i somehow caused a "bible verses being yelled across the room" level debate by saying that I have little interest in hitting on a girl I hadn't even met yet (long story).
Story time! Story time! Story time!