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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
As I stated in a different thread, I don't think people are treating the Myrmidarch totally right.
To me, Its not really a magus archetype. (Yes I know its a magus archetype)
But rather I feel its more a fighter archetype. Also, there is a very strong possibility it would be great as a siege weapon dude.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
To me, Its not really a magus archetype. (Yes I know its a magus archetype)
But rather I feel its more a fighter archetype.
So as a fighter archetype, it trades away full BAB, armor training 3 and 4, weapon training 4, and most of its bonus feats; and in exchange for that it gains the ability to attach Scorching Ray to his archery a couple times per day. That's still not great though; is that what you meant?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
No. That one ability is not the defining ability of the archetype.
Fighter trades away 1/4th of his BAB, Armor training 3 and 4, weapon training 4, most of the bonus feats, and goes from d10 to d8 hp and knowledge engineering...
fighter now gains
Class skills - Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Planes, Spellcraft and UMD
High will saves.
Ability to cast 6 levels of spells - This pretty much makes up for the loss of BAB, as you have a slew of spells now at your disposal to use to recover the 4 points of Bab you'd lose.
Arcane pool - Can now enchant his weapon on the spot for a minute in length
The ability to use Spell Combat and Melee spell Strike. (Unlike the Eldritch Archer, the Myrmidarch doesn't give this up completely.)
The ability to use a ranged spell strike
The ability to still hit spellcasters in the face with an AoO (Granted this is up towards level 16 But you still gain it.)
A handful of Magnus arcana
To me, I might be a bit crazy here, but I think thats a lot of extra stuff to tack into a fighter, even with his trade. And since Weapon Training from Fighters stacks with Weapon Training from Mymid.. If you really really really wanted for some reason to be really good at using your weapons and armor, you could chose to take the VMC Fighter.
I don't recommend it, but you could. And you'd gain Weapon Training 5 because of it.
Also, I believe if you wanted to, you could use the ranged spellstrike with Siege engines.
Also.. Eldritch Archer has two pretty useless abilities for it.
Improved spell combat at least gives it a +2 to cast defensively.
Greater spell combat though does nothing for an Eldritch Archer
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
At that point, you can simply stick VMC Magus at an plain old Arcane Archer build and call it a day.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
No. That one ability is not the defining ability of the archetype.
Of course it is. Ranged spellstrike is the only unique feature the myrm gets, so that clearly is its defining ability.
The problem is that the fighter is generally considered not a very good class, except with certain archetypes like Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior (which wouldn't stack with this one), or with the new stamina system (which by default a Magus cannot use). So that a myrmidarch is in some ways "better than a fighter" is really not a strong case for the myrm. Yes, most classes in the game are better than the fighter, we know that.
That doesn't change the facts that (1) the myrm is substantially weaker than other Magus archetypes, and (2) the myrm's core feature, i.e. ranged spell combat, doesn't work as written.
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Also, I believe if you wanted to, you could use the ranged spellstrike with Siege engines.
I've actually never heard of a campaign that involved siege engines. That said, you shouldn't ask if a myrm can use siege engines, but if he can do so better than a normal fighter or Magus (to which the answer is "no").
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Also.. Eldritch Archer has two pretty useless abilities for it.
Since we were talking about the myrm, I fail to see how this is relevant. EA is a powerful archetype and myrm is not.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Just stating. the EA has a few useless ones.
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Of course it is. Ranged spellstrike is the only unique feature the myrm gets, so that clearly is its defining ability.
Unique =/= Defining.
Just because it has a one something that no other Archetype/class has, doesn't mean its the defining ability and is the only thing you are ever absolutely allowed to do as you seem to suggest here with the fact that in your guide you define the Myrm as a failed archery archetype. Yes, a lot of times the unique ability is the defining ability. But not in the Case of the Myrm. Just like how Vivisectionist has a whole bunch of unique abilities.. But no one ever really takes that archetype for that. They take it for the sneak attack.
Sword Saint's Ijistu thing.. That is a defining feature. Not because its unique, but because the entire archetype revolves around it. If Myrm's stuff was like "Weapon training but only with ranged weapons." Then you might have more of a point of it being the defining feature of the Myrm.
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The problem is that the fighter is generally considered not a very good class, except with certain archetypes like Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior (which wouldn't stack with this one), or with the new stamina system (which by default a Magus cannot use). So that a myrmidarch is in some ways "better than a fighter" is really not a strong case for the myrm. Yes, most classes in the game are better than the fighter, we know that.
That doesn't change the facts that (1) the myrm is substantially weaker than other Magus archetypes, and (2) the myrm's core feature, i.e. ranged spell combat, doesn't work as written.
The fighter is generally considered a not very good class because it doesn't have a whole lot of ZOMG abilities like other classes. In fact, it and most of its mundane cousins are typically considered to be "not very good classes". And I'm not saying the Myrm is "Better than a fighter." Thats not what Archetypes are about. I'm saying not to view it as a Magus taking an archetype to become more like a fighter, but a Fighter taking an archetype to be more like a magus.
And well, by "Default" the fighter doesn't get combat stamina either. If Combat Stamina is only pick-up-able by fighters as a feat, then the Mym qualifies for it. Because they count as a fighter of 3 levels lower for the purposes of picking up feats.
Also, Myrm don't gain ranged spell combat. Myrm get Ranged Spell Strike, which isn't something that you just spam constantly. And no, it does work as written. Is it easy to do? Not really. No. It isn't easy to take full use of the Ranged Spell Strike, as its difficult to cast a spell and do a full round attack. Is it possible? yes. Yes it is.
Look, I'm not saying that Myrm is the greatest archetype and should be ranked in the blues or whatever, I'm saying it isn't really as Terrible as you state it is, especially with the new Weapon Master's handbook (that the Myrm qualifies for fairly easily). I'm also saying its not an archer archetype. Its more of a Switch hitter. That is why It doesn't give up Spell combat and spell Strike and also gains more armor ability. And it can use the arcana that allows it to use melee touch spells (Just like the archer can) on its ranged attacks.
A lot of the Damning of the archetype in your guide here is because of the view that it is a ranged archetype, when its not.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Just because it has a one something that no other Archetype/class has, doesn't mean its the defining ability and is the only thing you are ever absolutely allowed to do as you seem to suggest here with the fact that in your guide you define the Myrm as a failed archery archetype. Yes, a lot of times the unique ability is the defining ability. But not in the Case of the Myrm. Just like how Vivisectionist has a whole bunch of unique abilities.. But no one ever really takes that archetype for that. They take it for the sneak attack.
People take myrmidarch in order to be a ranged Magus (you know, because that's how it's advertised). The problem is that the archetype doesn't actually do that, and that other archetypes do it better. That is why it's a bad archetype.
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The fighter is generally considered a not very good class because it doesn't have a whole lot of ZOMG abilities like other classes. In fact, it and most of its mundane cousins are typically considered to be "not very good classes".
Both of these are incorrect. But if you want to repeat the old debate of what's wrong with the fighter, please start another thread for that.
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Also, Myrm don't gain ranged spell combat. Myrm get Ranged Spell Strike, which isn't something that you just spam constantly.
On the contrary, ranged spellstrike is something that you should avoid using at all. That is because it turns your ranged touch spells into ranged non-touch spells, making them substantially less accurate. That right there is the problem. If you want to land a debuff, that's a bad deal. But if you want to deal damage, casting Scorching Ray still deals more average damage than attaching it to an arrow.
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I'm saying it isn't really as Terrible as you state it is, especially with the new Weapon Master's handbook (that the Myrm qualifies for fairly easily).
Well, here's another issue. A regular Magus can pick up Weapon Training for a single feat, whereas the myrm pays three arcana for it, loses spell recall, and gets diminished spellcasting to boot. Again, not a good deal.
But if you know any good combos for a Magus with weapon training, let's hear them.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Whats the single feat that regular magus can get Weapon training with?
Cause yes, I know the Magus can get the Martial Focus which only counts as Weapon Training for the purposes of picking up weapon Mastery feats. But doesn't work for Advance Weapon Training.
Myrm is also advertised as being good with blade bow and armor, and yes, fighters are advertised as being good at fighting, but everyone knows they're just as effected as two rattlesnakes in a burlap sack trying square dance, Its still the base that should be looked at.
As far as spell strike, sure if you are just looking to shoot scorching rays (Which I guess is like the super best spell, as this is the second or third time you've mentioned it being the only thing that myrm's cast) with arrows, you're gonna have a bad time till you can use the full range of the bow to really get those spells out there. (With the extended range magus Arcana)
However Have you considered the possibility of using splash weapons? Those target touch AC after all still. Which there is a way to get Weapon Training on things like like, with things such as the launching crossbow. Or you could use a Bolos and make a ranged weapon attack to trip a target, throwing a spell on them as well.
I'd end up using the Throwing weapon group myself to be honest, cause its most capable of blending range and melee together. And provides a number of options to make touch attacks at a range.
As for AWT for now
Yeah, its small bonuses but it leads to some good stuff IMO..
Abundant Tactics + Bar Room Brawler - Martial Flexibility for scrubs
Combat Competence + Weapon Specialist - You are proficient with all weapons of your weapon group and can use most of your feats with them too. The two groups I suggest with this are Throwing or Monk. (Since Monk has the largest variation of weapons)
We'll have to see what happens with armor master's handbook too
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
@Tris:
Sorry, not buying into your argument. Myrm is still horrible on two fronts:
Your fighter feats are pretty delayed once their prereqs are based on actual BAB, so you'll never even come close to the base performance of a regular fighter.
You want to got switch hitting with both spell strikes, you'll have a class that goes MAD as hell.
The restrictions on ranged spellstrike are even more annoying, as you miss out on spell scaling and will never be able to use AoE spells without dipping in Arcane Archer. Consider that Fiery Ray is the only ranged touch spell to multitarget with, that's very sad performance.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
As far as spell strike, sure if you are just looking to shoot scorching rays (Which I guess is like the super best spell, as this is the second or third time you've mentioned it being the only thing that myrm's cast) with arrows, you're gonna have a bad time till you can use the full range of the bow to really get those spells out there. (With the extended range magus Arcana)
However Have you considered the possibility of using splash weapons?
Please read the guide instead of snarking about it. No, scorching ray is not a good spell (it's ranked orange), and yes, splash weapons are already listed. And it strikes me as unnecessary to take an arcana to use spells at long range, since the Magus already has long range spells on his list anyway. Why not just use those?
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I'd end up using the Throwing weapon group myself to be honest, cause its most capable of blending range and melee together. And provides a number of options to make touch attacks at a range.
Precisely. The thing is, the Card Caster archetype does a much better job at this; furthermore it can use melee spells with a ranged weapon, and doesn't get diminished spellcasting.
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Abundant Tactics + Bar Room Brawler - Martial Flexibility for scrubs
Combat Competence + Weapon Specialist - You are proficient with all weapons of your weapon group and can use most of your feats with them too. The two groups I suggest with this are Throwing or Monk. (Since Monk has the largest variation of weapons)
Thanks, this I'll have to look into. Still, two tricks is not a whole lot to rescue an archetype with.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Here's another cool ability with having weapon Training..
Storm of Blades - Create 1 sword per 2 caster levels up to 5 at level 10. Then magically hurl them at the enemy. Could you imagine what would happen with that? We're talking up to 8 attacks here. 6 at your full bab -2 , then another at full bab -7, and another at full bab -12.
You'd get your weapon training bonus on this as well giving you around +1~+5 additional damage on the weapons at least, if not more.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
All right, here's the problem. You're listing tricks that sound cool, but upon scrutiny just aren't worth the investment.
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Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Abundant Tactics + Bar Room Brawler - Martial Flexibility for scrubs
So, the cool ability is that four times per day, you can pick the feat of your choice and use it for one minute (myrm's weapon training bonus caps at +3). Now what have you paid for this? Well, four feats (one above, plus the fact that the myrm loses out on three arcana slots, which are feat-equivalent). It should be obvious that's not a good trade!
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Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Combat Competence + Weapon Specialist - You are proficient with all weapons of your weapon group and can use most of your feats with them too.
So what? The Magus is already proficient with all martial weapons.
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Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Storm of Blades - Create 1 sword per 2 caster levels up to 5 at level 10. Then magically hurl them at the enemy. Could you imagine what would happen with that?
Yes, easily. SOB is a really bad spell. Normally, it caps at 10d6 damage to a single target (by conjuring five greatswords, for 50 gp), and for this you have to make a regular attack. Now compare this to the old Magus staple of Intensified Snowball, which deals 10d6 damage to a single target as a touch attack; clearly that's much better. By the time that SOB actually deals 10d6+15 damage (as myrm weapon training caps at +3, not +5) you can already cast Disintegrate for 36d6 instead.
That's the thing. Whenever you spot a cool new trick, you should compare it to what a regular Magus can already do, and see if it measures up. If you want to make lots of attacks with a level 2 spell, try Bladed Dash instead.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Can you explain your rationale behind the Hex choices on the Hexcrafter build?
The best choice aside from Flight seems to be Slumber, an at-will sleep spell that bypasses SR (due to being a supernatural effect as opposed to a spell or spell-like ability) and has no HD cap, allowing it to remain useful late in the game. Agony seems like a red choice since it allows a save every round. Misfortune is decent, but only truly shines if you take Cackle so that it can remain in effect for an entire fight. Death Curse takes 3 rounds to hit its stride (and allows a save for two of those rounds) which seems like a waste of the action economy. Why not simply cast an Empowered Maximized Disintegrate and call it a day?
Aside from Flight and Slumber, I see no single Hex choice worth an Arcana slot. Misfortune + Cackle is a good combination, but hardly worth two Arcana slots.
Edit: I'm building a Human Bladebound/Hexcrafter Magus to fill a Striker/Debuff role. Here is what I have so far:
Spoiler
Show
Race: Human.
@ Dump all of my Favored Class bonuses into extra HP.
Attributes: 11 STR, 19 DEX, 14 CON, 16 INT, 10 WIS, 7 CHA after racial bonus (+2 DEX) from 25 point-buy.
@ Dump all of my stat boosts into DEX.
Skills: Put 1 point in Climb / Swim / Knowledges. Put 2 points in Perform (Dance). Max out Fly / Perception / Spellcraft / Stealth.
Traits: Reactionary, Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), Blood of Dragons.
Drawbacks: Pride.
~ Feat Progression ~
Note: $ indicates a bonus feat.
01. Improved Initiative$, Weapon Finesse
03. Alertness$, Dervish Dance
05. Intensified Spell$, Step Up
07. Extra Arcana
09. Lunge
11. Rime Spell$, Dimensional Agility
13. Extra Arcana
15. Spell Focus (Transmutation)
17. Piercing Spell$, Spell Perfection (Disintegrate)
19. Extra Arcana
~ Arcana Progression ~
04. Hex: Flight
06. Close Range
07. Hex: Slumber
09. Accurate Strike
12. Hasted Assault
13. Empowered Magic
15. Spell Blending
18. Maximized Magic
19. Quickened Magic
Taking Piercing Spell metamagic seems way better than the Spell Penetration line because picking up a third metamagic feat allows you to grab Spell Perfection, and you're reducing the enemy SR by 5 whereas both the Spell Penetration feats would have given you a total bonus of +4. Combined with Spell Focus (Transmutation) and the True Magus capstone, taking Spell Perfection on Disintegrate makes it almost guaranteed to hit it's target no matter what. With Empowered/Maximized Magic, you've got an almost guaranteed 360 damage death-blow for killing even the toughest bosses.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
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Originally Posted by
Dyndrilliac
Can you explain your rationale behind the Hex choices on the Hexcrafter build?
Well, the point of the sample builds is on the one hand to show a lot of potential and variety, and on the other hand that they're playable at most or all tables. In particular, this means that these builds avoid options that are commonly considered cheese or ban-worthy, such as the Slumber hex.
Now the focus of this build is on debuffing enemies (for empowered disintegrate, check the first build instead). That makes Misfortune and Agony good choices: they bypass SR, have better save DCs than the Magus's own spells, and pretty much nothing is immune to them. More importantly, debuffing an enemy for two rounds should be enough to kill it in most cases. Given that combat tends to last an average of three rounds, it's really not necessary to have debuffs that last longer than that. While Misf is great with Cackle, it's still good without Cackle.
And yeah, Death Curse isn't great. I should probably swap it for Abominate.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Got Confirmation that the designers intent with Abundant tactics was to apply it to all feats with a daily limit.
So the Myrm actually becomes a little bit more interesting ball of abilities.
After 6th, Taking the abundant Tactics aspect, gives you one more daily use of every daily limit combat feats, and the Myrm doesn't quite just stop at a +3. It actually stops at a +5, without the use of VMC. Gloves of Dueling.
So you could pick up Bar Room Brawler to get a floating feat usable up to 6 times a day.
Telekinetic Mastery, usable up to 8 times a day.
Shatterspell (Dwarf feat) usable up to 7 times a day.
Smiting Reversal (Newest book) usable up to 8 times a day
Combat Meditation - usable up to Wis Mod + 5 a day
Perfect Awareness - usable up to 6 times a day
Slow Time - usable up to 6 times a day.
I hope we get some more Per day combat feats out there. I know I didn't get a lot of the ones like Stunning fist, punishing kick and the like. Hopefully when Armor Master's handbook comes out we get some really good stuff with it too.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Got Confirmation that the designers intent with Abundant tactics was to apply it to all feats with a daily limit.
Well, it may be what they intended but it's not what the ability actually says. As written, it applies to one feat, not to all of them. So unless it gets errata, that's just not going to fly.
More to the point, all the feats you've listed are supposed to give fighters access to a bit of weakened spellcasting. But that makes them poor choices for a Magus, who is already spellcaster. He doesn't need Combat Meditation (since he can cast True Strike), or Slow Time (he can use Haste, or several other ways to haste himself), nor Shatterspell (just cast Dispel Magic), and not even TK Mastery (because he also has Telekinesis, which is a pretty weak spell anyway). And these feats are all weaker than the corresponding spell, and don't work in spell combat either.
To add insult to injury, several of them require other weak feats as prereq (e.g. Meditation Master or Spellbreaker), or ability scores that a Magus is unlikely to have (e.g. wisdom 15+), or impractical weapons (e.g. unarmed strikes; and of course myrm doesn't stack with Esoteric). Overall, that means these feats are compounding poor choices with yet other poor choices.
That leaves Smiting Reversal, which is already 3/day by itself. And since PCs don't get smited on a regular basis, that's also not worth a feat anyway.
So once more, whenever you spot a cool new trick, you should compare it to what a regular Magus can already do, and see if it measures up. Because these tricks don't, and that's why the myrm archetype is just no match for a regular Magus.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
As it is written, there is room for interpretation. Abundant Tactics never says you have to select a feat. As such the Rai was whenever you have a feat that meets the conditions, you get X more uses.
And yes, the feats give fighters somethings, these somethings apply to the myrm as well. Is the Myrm a spellcaster? Yes, sure. However some of the things you've thrown out there are not at all the spell equivalents. Even then, some of these things are not even spells, spell like, or even su. Further more, you get more.
Shatterspell is not dispel magic- Instead of having to have a toe to toe conflict with the enemy on their ground, you can move it more to your ground by making it a Sunder CMB vs CMD instead of Caster level vs Caster Level. One of these two will generally only succeed less that 50% of the time, while the other will often succeed far more often. Thats becasue the Mage your smashing spells of is going to have less BAB than you, generally less str/dex and less other defenses against his spells getting sundered. Maybe it isn't as good to you, but I generally think trying to out magic a wizard as 6 level class isn't going to work out. But trying to out martial them would be.
Slow Time - This isn't haste, despite what the effect is. Look at the last little bit of the feat to see it is an EX ability, which means it cannot be dispelled. (Its not a spell) Functions in Anti-magic fields, doesn't mess with any mana wastes or spellscars or none of that.
Combat Meditation - I'm not sure how you got True Strike out of roll twice for ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Since like, only one of those applies to actually attacking, and its not a +20 insight bonus to your attack roll. Again, another EX ability too.
The only one that is just a spell is the TK Mastery. And honestly, yes, for a magus, I'd only use it via Bar Room Brawler. And the Same with Countering Smite. Thats the great thing about having a floating combat feat you know? You could pick up exactly the feat you needed at this moment that is otherwise normally a very odd fringe combat feat.
You also missed out on Perfect Awareness, letting you treat your roll for a perception check as a 20.
So once more, I'm still not saying its the best archetype. I'm not saying it is even on the level with the normal magus. I'm saying its not completely utterly terrible bad archery archetype. I'm saying its a not very good fightery archetype. Cause I'm looking at the all of what it can do, and frankly, archery isn't it. That really doesn't kick in until level 6ish or so, when you can start using spell strike with melee touch attacks, or higher up when you can extend the range of your short ranged touch attacks.
And even then its just really for slowing down an opponent or harming them from a range while working to get closer.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
You could also use "Wondrous Item Trick - Aura Mastery" to get a bunch of +1 Caster Level bonuses.
But again, that just doesn't make up for the Myrmidarchs shortcomings.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triskavanski
Combat Meditation - I'm not sure how you got True Strike out of roll twice for ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Since like, only one of those applies to actually attacking, and its not a +20 insight bonus to your attack roll. Again, another EX ability too.
You're missing the point. Yes, you can spend two feats, a 15000 gp item, and a higher wisdom score than you'd normally take, and wait until level twelve to get an ability to roll twice on a single attack roll. Or, you can use True Strike at level one without spending anything, in the same round as making a full attack, and a +20 is actually stronger than a roll twice ability. These abilities are not the same as spells, they are weaker than the equivalent spells.
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And honestly, yes, for a magus, I'd only use it via Bar Room Brawler.
Well, there you go. If you write up a list of suggestions that you wouldn't use yourself anyway, then perhaps they aren't such good suggestions?
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I'm saying its a not very good fightery archetype.
Then we're agreed on that.
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Originally Posted by
Serafina
You could also use "Wondrous Item Trick - Aura Mastery" to get a bunch of +1 Caster Level bonuses.
But again, that just doesn't make up for the Myrmidarchs shortcomings.
Indeed.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
So, how does a Natural Weapon Magus play at low levels, in folks' experience? It has been. . . less than satisfying in mine. They need to be 3rd level - and take a specific Arcana - just to get access to their basic shtick, but that shtick is still limited. Round 1 is either spent casting an offensive or defensive buff, followed either by the enemy closing and eating the Magus' face (offensive buff) or the enemy ignoring the Magus because he hasn't presented as a threat (defensive buff) and moving such that the Magus needs to use a Move Action, reducing the Claw/Claw/Bite routine to a single attack with, roughly, a 35% chance of hitting. . . followed by the Magus eating a full attack to the face again.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
So, how does a Natural Weapon Magus play at low levels, in folks' experience? It has been. . . less than satisfying in mine. They need to be 3rd level - and take a specific Arcana - just to get access to their basic shtick, but that shtick is still limited. Round 1 is either spent casting an offensive or defensive buff, followed either by the enemy closing and eating the Magus' face (offensive buff) or the enemy ignoring the Magus because he hasn't presented as a threat (defensive buff) and moving such that the Magus needs to use a Move Action, reducing the Claw/Claw/Bite routine to a single attack with, roughly, a 35% chance of hitting. . . followed by the Magus eating a full attack to the face again.
Take a look at the "Esoteric" Magus archetype then. Monk unarmed strike, unarmed spell strike from the get-go and a bunch of SLAs.
IŽd use a Ragebred as basis, TWF, Extra Feature for Hooves, netting you 5 attacks at 3rd along with spell strike and spell combat.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Florian
Take a look at the "Esoteric" Magus archetype then. Monk unarmed strike, unarmed spell strike from the get-go and a bunch of SLAs.
IŽd use a Ragebred as basis, TWF, Extra Feature for Hooves, netting you 5 attacks at 3rd along with spell strike and spell combat.
This is an example of how a low-level Natural Weapon Magus plays in your experience?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Florian
Take a look at the "Esoteric" Magus archetype then. Monk unarmed strike, unarmed spell strike from the get-go and a bunch of SLAs.
Errr, no. A regular Magus can already do unarmed spell strike, unarmed strikes don't do any more damage than weapons at that level, and he was talking about natural weapons, not unarmed strikes. Esoteric is pretty lacklustre as archetypes go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
So, how does a Natural Weapon Magus play at low levels, in folks' experience? It has been. . . less than satisfying in mine. They need to be 3rd level - and take a specific Arcana - just to get access to their basic shtick, but that shtick is still limited.
Ok, what exactly is the GM throwing against you at level 3? Because if you commonly have only that low a chance to hit, then there is something odd going on here.
I would expect either (1) you throw an offensive buff, the enemy attacks you once, and you drop a full attack on the enemy (say, three hits with Frostbite); or (2) you throw a defensive buff, the enemy attacks a teammate who should be pretty close to you, and then you five-step and again drop a full attack on the enemy. Or, failing that, cast Shocking Grasp as a standard, move up to the enemy, and touch him as a free action. You could even start throwing Daze cantrips around, they should still work at that level.
Well, at level 4 you'll get Bladed Dash which solves your mobility problem.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
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Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
This is an example of how a low-level Natural Weapon Magus plays in your experience?
Only experienced that as a gm (suffered thru it would be the better terminus). We did some short test sessions with the Occult Adventures stuff and a player showed up with such a build.
Key features were the 3 primary natural attacks (hooves (x2), gore) combined with the two unarmed strikes. Plan was to gain Feral Combat Training later on.
The key trick for all that is that spending Arcane Pool points on unarmed strikes work on all unarmed strikes available at once, stacking pretty good with an Amulett of Mighty Fists.
On the spell casting side, that was pretty lame, as diminished spell casting shows at lower levels.
The sheer damage output was of the scale, though.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
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Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Errr, no. A regular Magus can already do unarmed spell strike, unarmed strikes don't do any more damage than weapons at that level, and he was talking about natural weapons, not unarmed strikes. Esoteric is pretty lacklustre as archetypes go.
Ok, what exactly is the GM throwing against you at level 3? Because if you commonly have only that low a chance to hit, then there is something odd going on here.
I would expect either (1) you throw an offensive buff, the enemy attacks you once, and you drop a full attack on the enemy (say, three hits with Frostbite); or (2) you throw a defensive buff, the enemy attacks a teammate who should be pretty close to you, and then you five-step and again drop a full attack on the enemy. Or, failing that, cast Shocking Grasp as a standard, move up to the enemy, and touch him as a free action. You could even start throwing Daze cantrips around, they should still work at that level.
Well, at level 4 you'll get Bladed Dash which solves your mobility problem.
Kingmaker set-piece encounters, plus Level-appropriate Random Encounters based on terrain. Offensive buff in first round is generally Enlarge Person; defensive buff in first round is generally Shock Shield (I wear Wood Armor for reasons).
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
Kingmaker set-piece encounters, plus Level-appropriate Random Encounters based on terrain. Offensive buff in first round is generally Enlarge Person; defensive buff in first round is generally Shock Shield (I wear Wood Armor for reasons).
Well, there's your problem.
Enlarge Person doesn't increase your offense by much, breaks your defenses, and makes you a big target (in addition to not being usable in spell combat). Try Long Arm or Frostbite instead.
Shock Shield is an inferior version of shield, since its shock (1d6 damage save for half) is not going to impress anyone. Try regular Shield instead, or Vanish.
Also, depending on the opposition, consider opening with Color Spray or Grease instead of buffing yourself. Because buffing gets a lot more impressive if you've got 2nd or 3rd level spells to do it with.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Well, there's your problem.
Enlarge Person doesn't increase your offense by much, breaks your defenses, and makes you a big target (in addition to not being usable in spell combat). Try Long Arm or Frostbite instead.
Shock Shield is an inferior version of shield, since its shock (1d6 damage save for half) is not going to impress anyone. Try regular Shield instead, or Vanish.
Also, depending on the opposition, consider opening with Color Spray or Grease instead of buffing yourself. Because buffing gets a lot more impressive if you've got 2nd or 3rd level spells to do it with.
Longarm increases my offense by less than Enlarge Person, by the math that I can see, still eats the first Round of combat, and still pulls in more aggro than I can eat in a Round; I say this from the experience of having used it with this Character (see the "generally" qualifier). Shield will make me even less likely to be approached as a threat by the enemy as the Shock Shield at least gives some fluff-based appearance of imminent danger - and functions as an (admittedly weak) AoE against foes like Swarms - so does not solve the issue that casting a defensive buff creates.
Frostbite would be lovely, were the odds that I could hit better than 35%. As it does not, to my knowledge, add to my odds of hitting the enemy, it's been of extremely limited utility thus far.
As for Bladed Dash, could you clarify having a single use per day of this Spell makes my Character relevant in a typical adventuring day of 4-5 expected Encounters? I mean, yes, I can nova through 3 Spells in the first few Rounds of the first combat (assuming the enemy isn't dead by the time the buff-cycle is done), but then?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Small error in the guide, Celestial Armor is light, not medium.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Yeah, it's really weird. It's not even like mithral, it just straight-up counts as light armor.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
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Originally Posted by
ICN
Good catch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
Longarm increases my offense by less than Enlarge Person,
Longarm gives you another full round of attacks (since it works in spell combat); whereas Enlarge basically gives you +1 to damage while reducing your AC by two, negating some cover, and making you visibly a threat. Both allow you an opportunity attack against enemies that approach you (which you can use to trip them, too).
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still pulls in more aggro than I can eat in a Round; I say this from the experience of having used it with this Character (see the "generally" qualifier). Shield will make me even less likely to be approached as a threat by the enemy
So, wait, you're telling me that your enemies always have enough spellcraft to know exactly what you're doing, and enough intelligence to counter it? And always have such good defenses that the party can only hit them 35% of the time? Because it sounds to me that either the GM is consistently throwing encounters well above your challenge rate, or your party needs to coordinate better and flank, drop crowd control, use a wand of Bless, and so forth.