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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Throknor
To be pedantic, Eugene isn't alive anymore; he's an oathspirit. He can't
live up to anything.
Remember
Violet? She didn't seem to think the adultery was going to be a problem getting in. Eugene states there's nothing to do except 'watch the living or hook up'. Generally speaking with little else possible there might not be a system for re-judging an oathspirit as there's little they could do to influence anything of importance.
I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it. Just as Lawful Evil expect
a bureaucratic inbox and everything that goes along with it.
According to Word of Giant, it seems that you first go to the plane of the alignment you declare yourself to be, but there is a chance of being moved to an alignment that suits you better.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Roy's Archon stated that he is unlikely to go to hell, but that doesn't mean he is going to heaven either. He could end up in one of the XN afterlives just as easily.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one -
he's trying.
Eugene is very, very trying.
+1 Internet for you.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I'm not 100% sure but I think what Eugene approves of with V is taking a shot at Xykon which is not unreasonable since he threatens the entire future of the world and possibly the future existence of the outer planes and all the immortal souls therein. I don't think he knows about Familiacide or the deal with the "devils".
More to the point, a lot of Eugene's postmortem actions that could be regarded as not LG are rooted in him being frustrated as basically a prisoner in a jail for a crime he didn't commit and Heaven would have to be pretty lame to punish him for that.
We also know that Eugene was an adventurer in life and a pretty high level one so he could also have an awful lot of good deeds on his record that advanced the cause of good and/or law. I mean I'm sure everyone here has played either a pen and paper RPG or a computer one. How much better have you left the world at the end of the game? In Fallout New Vegas I'm a one man extinction event for hostile wasteland critters and psycho murder-rape-torture gangs as well. Local life expectancy for regular people probably went up ten years. Who knows what good deeds Eugene is being measured by.
Being a bit of a **** sometimes and a mediocre father probably aren't enough to keep him out unless Heaven is what I would call unreasonably strict and goodness is supposed to include things like mercy and forgiveness.
Although on the other hand Celestia has a pretty Christian-Bible styling to it and some readings of the Bible say "Almost everyone goes to Hell".
It's also got Buddhist themes (Climbing the Mountain of Spiritual Enlightenment) and again, getting out of the cycle of reincarnation is very hard.
So maybe Celestia is staffed by ***** and Eugene is ****ed.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my prediction about Eugene.
We know that Eugene's actions in life warrant entrance to Celestia. The oath blood oath that keeps him out is very carefully worded that Eugene gets his rest when Xykon is destroyed by himself or one of his descendents.
Xykon will be destroyed, but not by Roy. At least not directly. Therefore, the letter of the oath will forever remain unfulfilled and unfulfillable.
As we know from Roy's experience, the Celestial authorities try to be reasonable. Eugene will have the chance to petition to have the blood oath nullified due to special circumstances. At this hearing, Eugene's post-mortem behavior will be examined, especially his reluctance to do something that might possibly help Roy fulfill the blood oath and his willingness to abandon his family. This will be grounds to deny Eugene's petition to overturn the blood oath, barring him from Celestia for good.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gopher
Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my prediction about Eugene.
We know that Eugene's actions in life warrant entrance to Celestia. The oath blood oath that keeps him out is very carefully worded that Eugene gets his rest when Xykon is destroyed by himself or one of his descendents.
Xykon will be destroyed, but not by Roy. At least not directly. Therefore, the letter of the oath will forever remain unfulfilled and unfulfillable.
As we know from Roy's experience, the Celestial authorities try to be reasonable. Eugene will have the chance to petition to have the blood oath nullified due to special circumstances. At this hearing, Eugene's post-mortem behavior will be examined, especially his
reluctance to do something that might possibly help Roy fulfill the blood oath and his willingness to abandon his family. This will be grounds to deny Eugene's petition to overturn the blood oath, barring him from Celestia for good.
I highly doubt anyone but Roy will destroy Xykon, but that is a nice theory
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Well, I wouldn't expect another hero to arise out of nowhere, but I expect Xykon will end up getting eaten by the Snarl one way or another.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gopher
Well, I wouldn't expect another hero to arise out of nowhere, but I expect Xykon will end up getting eaten by the Snarl one way or another.
I think that if we end up in the kind of situation where the Snarl starts killing people Eugene might not be quite so concerned about which afterlife he ends up in and more concerned about whether he gets an afterlife.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ti'esar
The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.
You're right. I had forgotten about that soldier. I retract my argument then.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ti'esar
The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.
In this world, getting impaled =/= dying, not necessarially
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
It does when the Snarl is involved. That thing one-shots gods.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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Originally Posted by
Rogar Demonblud
It does when the Snarl is involved. That thing one-shots gods.
More importantly, it does when its a nameless character.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
More importantly, it does when its a nameless character.
And especially when that nameless character is some random soldier. I would rate SPG's chances of survival as more than zero.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I've always figured that it wouldn't even occur to the devas that they might need to re-examine the case of somebody who was already approved for admission, on the basis of actions they took while already dead.
As for Eugene destroying the file on V instead of reading it and passing the info on to Roy, that was stupid but it's not as if Eugene actually agreed to the deva's request or was under any obligation to do as she said. And the stupidity of one's actions has no bearing on character alignment.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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Originally Posted by
Red XIV
I've always figured that it wouldn't even occur to the devas that they might need to re-examine the case of somebody who was already approved for admission, on the basis of actions they took while already dead.
Of so, it is a flaw in the system, which is therefore no longer Lawful Good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Red XIV
As for Eugene destroying the file on V instead of reading it and passing the info on to Roy, that was stupid but it's not as if Eugene actually agreed to the deva's request or was under any obligation to do as she said. And the stupidity of one's actions has no bearing on character alignment.
Either you are responsible for your own decisions and actions or you are not. If you are not, then the entire alignment system is meaningless.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Of so, it is a flaw in the system, which is therefore no longer Lawful Good.
Flaws in the system would not affect its alignment. If its not perfect... oh well? Im fairly confident the number of people held like Eugene is AND are given the opportunity to make decisions that would influence their admission is fairly low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Either you are responsible for your own decisions and actions or you are not. If you are not, then the entire alignment system is meaningless.
You are responsible for your actions, but actions made in ignorance of certain facts affect your alignment less. If you pull a level to see what it does, it kills someone, and youre horrified by that, it doesn't make you evil, it just makes you dumb.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
Flaws in the system would not affect its alignment. If its not perfect... oh well?
Then it is not pure Good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
You are responsible for your actions, but actions made in ignorance of certain facts affect your alignment less. If you pull a level to see what it does, it kills someone, and youre horrified by that, it doesn't make you evil, it just makes you dumb.
If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Then it is not pure Good.
why not? Alignment is disconnected from intelligence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.
See above.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
why not? Alignment is disconnected from intelligence
A Good person can be low intelligence. But the ultimate arbiters of Good cannot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.
See above.
I'll stick with it. If you will pull the lever without knowing what it will do, that is a random, non-Lawful act.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
A Good person can be low intelligence. But the ultimate arbiters of Good cannot.
That's a nonanswer. What makes it so that good is tied into intelligence, and more importantly able to plan for every contingency?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
I'll stick with it. If you will pull the lever without knowing what it will do, that is a random, non-Lawful act.
Ill agree you have a point here.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
That's a nonanswer. What makes it so that good is tied into intelligence, and more importantly able to plan for every contingency?
Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.
I think youre missing my point here. How is it the fault of the deva's if they are not omniscient? If they cant foresee every single contingency in the history of existence that has been or will be.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
I think youre missing my point here. How is it the fault of the deva's if they are not omniscient? If they cant foresee every single contingency in the history of existence that has been or will be.
I'm not missing your point. I'm saying it doesn't apply here.
That is certainly how you treat a courtroom, or a sports referee, or any other construct of fallible people. But if the measurement of Goodness is itself unjust, then it isn't measuring Goodness, just as a ruler which changes in size isn't measuring length.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.
It's not perfect, but it might still be good enough.
This is just part of the huge incoherent mess that is D&D cosmology (and OOTS has made no attempt to fill the gaps, presumably because it's not something that particularly interests Rich). The idea of heaven as a "reward" is predicated on monotheistic assumptions, where there are only two outcomes - admitted, or not-admitted. With 17 outer planes, each with its own governing authorities, that doesn't make sense any more.
(Consider: if the Deva tossed a soul over to Neutral Good, the soul would have to go through the NG entry procedures, whatever they are. What if they decide he's too lawful for them? The NG authorities don't answer to the LG ones, so there's no guarantee they'll agree with the Deva's call. What's really needed is something more like the Hogwarts Sorting Hat, which is independent of all the houses and, as far as we know, can't be overruled by anyone.)
The conclusion I've come to, for now, is that the job of the guardians (presumably of each plane, although the fact that we've only seen one of them makes it a bit speculative) is to let in the people who "belong" there, i.e. who will be more at home there than they would on any of the others, and therefore (most likely, although so long as the spirits retain free-will anything is possible) won't try to upset the normal order of the place. (What happens if you change alignment after being admitted to Celestia?)
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
veti
(What happens if you change alignment after being admitted to Celestia?)
Maybe you are thrown out - as happens to angels, archons etc that become corrupt?
According to BoVD, Baalzebul was an archon once, before becoming corrupt and ending up in the Nine Hells. And FC2 suggests that others, like Asmodeus, Dispater, etc are former celestials as well.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Pink Ninja
I'm not 100% sure but I think what Eugene approves of with V is taking a shot at Xykon which is not unreasonable since he threatens the entire future of the world and possibly the future existence of the outer planes and all the immortal souls therein. I don't think he knows about Familiacide or the deal with the "devils".
More to the point, a lot of Eugene's postmortem actions that could be regarded as not LG are rooted in him being frustrated as basically a prisoner in a jail for a crime he didn't commit and Heaven would have to be pretty lame to punish him for that...
Well, you may be right, but I think you're mistaken on 2 counts.
1) I believe that Eugene approves of V's actions because "the ends justify the means", which is an inherently non-Lawful Good attitude, and "if Roy had taken that approach a long time ago, then Xykon would be dead by now and I'd be out of here." This is one reason why I think that, even if/when Roy or Julia managed to kill Xykon, Eugene still would be re-evaluated and found inelegible for the LG heaven. He's not even trying to be Lawful and Good anymore. "Using Evil to fight Evil" doesn't count as Lawful Good, even if it has a Good end result- because part of Evil still ends up winning and being strengthened. (The IFCC in this case.)
An argument can be made that Eugene never read the file, thus did not know that V was dealing with devils (literally); but he showed an active disinterest, which is just as bad.
2) Eugene is not in jail for a crime he didn't commit. He took an oath not to rest in this life or the next until he killed Xykon, period; then he quit. He didn't consider the consequences of quitting his oath-quest, and now that it's too late, he's pissed off. He didn't read the fine print, and now he's paying the bill. Is it disproportionate punishment? Sure. Are possibly mythological stories of possibly mythological gods (no names mentioned *coughYahwehcough*) full of similar stories of what some of us might consider disproportionate, eternal punishments for "sins" that some humans don't consider sins? Sure. Then again, what Eugene is doing (eternity with nothing to do but hook up with other spirits in limbo?) doesn't seem all that bad.
Also, you used a video game analogy. You are right, Eugene on that level probably completed a lot of side quests, visited many villages, raided some dungeons; but he failed to complete the story. He took the disc out of the machine and switched to playing "The Sims" with his new wife. He never played the game out to the point where he got the trophy achievement "Killing Xykon"; so he doesn't get to move on, considering that he contracted to complete the game, or die trying, as a condition of moving on to his Eternal Rest.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebum2002
In this world, getting impaled =/= dying, not necessarially
Like Tarquin impaling Roy and Elan?
On Topic, guy's keep in mind we know so little about Eugene's life. We know he was a bit neglectful of Roy, but that tells us so little of his adventuring among other things. Certainly, his recent actions might effect his end placement, but keep in mind he's had 70+2d20 years of actions he's been taking. As far as you know, he stopped some BBEG on par with Xykon in his lifetime for no personal gain at all.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
veti
Meta answer:
I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.
But then the Giant
took the time to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.
So why did he bother to correct me?
My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's
not going to get into Celestia.
The problem is, the Giant's post on this issue corrects your mistake in thinking that the interview was just a formality. That doesn't have anything to do with Eugene's situation--he's already had his interview, and was judged to be LG. The only reason he's still on the cloud is because of the oath. There's nothing that even suggests that he'll have to go through another interview. In fact, the implication seems to be that he's go straight in if/when the oath is fulfilled.
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
The same thing applies to Roy. He's already pegged for Mount Celestia, and he's got maybe another 80 years of life left. What happens if he turns Chaotic Neutral in his 50s?