I asked about that, he gave them a special ability that grants Fast Healing in a 30ft area.
The question any rebalance of the Paladin has to ask itself is...
"Why is this a better Paladin than a Cleric? What do I add to the concept that can't be done just as well by that class?"
Certainly, in the RAW, if you want to be a holy warrior who can smite evil, lay on hands, detect evil at will, inspire her allies to acts of heroism, and be a knight in shining armor... a Cleric does every aspect of that better than the Paladin. Not just mechanical aspects either, Clerics can totally pull more flavor and variety out of the role. And she can do this at level 1. Not only that, but she can just as easily be a Blackguard, or a paragon of Law or Chaos or whatever, instead of simply being restricted to the Lawful Good archetype.
In fact, the Cleric is so effective at fulfilling this role, one wonders why you would need a new paladin at all, other than to shove it to WotC for incompetent class design and show that you can do it better than they can. Which is exactly why the Rebalanced Paladin I was involved with was made anyways.
One of the most straightforward solutions to creating a new paladin is simply to become aware of the many ways to play one as a cleric. This also gets around all the hassle of having to convince your DM to accept a revision, no matter how good it is.
...And what, exactly, are you trying to say by this?:smallconfused:
I gave the paladin that... just a version that preserves action economy.:smallcool:
Ayup. That's what I was intending. D&D & MTG are made by the same people, after all.:smallamused:
Honestly Gorgon, I like the paladin you presented (though it will never replace OneWinged4ngel's in my heart, sorry), I've been vastly disappointed by its counterparts, both in terms of fluff and mechanics. Yeah, a lot of the concepts are original, but very often you seem to be playing to extreme and unnecessary stereotypes (read: Anarch = crazy). I dunno, I guess I woulda taken it a different way.
If I could actually muster the will to do so, mind >.> You get props for actually buckling down and doing the work.
I would like to note that of all the "fallen" PrCs, I honestly like none of them, and they all seem pretty weak to me.
SpoilerOkay. This is a sound conclusion. The Paladin leaves much to be desired in terms of game design, as it is strictly inferior at its own role, both flavorfully and mechanically, than other classes.
Errr.... this is where you've lost me. Fall is cool and all, but he doesn't need to be a "just plain better" class. He's still fighting to be a "half-decent" class who can do something more impressive than just Rhino Rush cheese charge people all day for arbitrary stacks of damage. The paladin needs to feel like a HERO, and he doesn't do that. Like, at all.Quote:
Now, honestly, I like the fall. You could just do away with it, remove the alignment requirement and such, and then make the paladin simply a spiritual warrior, but I like it as is. I like the idea of a holy warrior who won't kill an innocent in order to save a whole town, in one of those contrived circumstances people on this forum tend to think up. It's not that the paladin doesn't realize that it would be better to save a town at the expense of the innocent, or doesn't care: it's that the paladin's unwavering faith, the thing that gives him power, tells him that there's another way, and forces him to find it.
So, I'm okay with the fall... but the point of the paladin is that he gains his powers from the fall, from his unwavering faith. In other words: he's powerful.
And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.
[/quote]So, let's succeed where WotC failed. I've seen a lot of paladin fixes, but most of them bring it up to mid-high tier 4: I'm shooting for something that'll be competitive with a CoDzilla.[/quote] If it's only as good as a CoDzilla melee cleric, (which is essentially a Paladin, with smite, detect evil at will, heavy armor, a greatsword, and a magic horse, not to mention lots of other fun tools), what's the point? This is the question you should ask yourself. How can you *better* the concept of a paladin in a way that the actual Cleric class doesn't already cover? In order to properly answer this, it's a good idea to find out the breadth of options you have, in build and in game, as a Paladin Cleric.
Best wishes :)Quote:
...Wish me luck.:smalleek:
To be completely honest, I find this worse than the writeup for the Paladin's Code in the PHB. Give people tools to tailor their own stories and flesh out their own philosophies and such. "Lawful Good" can mean many different things, but this is unnecessarily restrictive, and far moreso than the PHB one.Quote:
In addition, the paladin has a code of conduct.
The Paladin must always act with honor, respect legitimate and just authority (so long as said authority does not command him to commit an evil act), help those in need, never under any circumstances harm an innocent or commit an evil act, and work to uphold the law at all times unless said law would go against the other tenets of the code. A paladin can't kill a baby to save a village. Unless it is justified under the law, killing someone just because they are evil is considered an evil act, and will cause the paladin to fall- all evil creatures deserve redemption. The paladin must have just reason to believe the evil creature in question is going to do him or an innocent harm to harm the evil creatures.
A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts.
A paladin may only kill a neutral creature if they are in the process of attacking the paladin, his allies, or an innocent, or doing something that would help bring about the harm of the paladin, his allies, or an innocent.
The paladin may, under no circumstances, kill a good creature.
Nonsentient creatures do not extend to this clause, though the paladin may not kill a nonsentient creature if it would be illegal to do so.
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.
I like something more like...
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.
There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings and cultures are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!
Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really is to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.
Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall and cease to have any abilities whatsoever), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character (while an act that your God grossly disapproves of in her paladins can happen very suddenly).
So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall. This doesn't mean the third option is practical, or even possible, but the paladin should always at least try.
This code may be altered in minor ways, subject to DM approval. In general, however, it must remain strongly lawful good, and be founded in ideals as opposed to practicality.
I rather like wise paladins. There are very good examples of them in fiction. They aren't just shiny goody two-shoes, they actually have an inspiring and insightful view on life (and on the nature of people, a la Sense Motive etc). But YMMV. This is largely up to preference, but it's just another reason I like Clericadins. Anyways, your implementation here is odd. You have all kinds of tools to create wiser, more willful paladins (resistance to compulsions, bonus to sense motive, divine grace, etc etc) yet encourage Paladins to dump Wisdom, basically evening that out.Quote:
Abilities: Strength and constitution are important, as they are for any melee class. Wisdom now takes a backseat to charisma- in fact, wisdom has no place for the paladin, aside from skills & will saves.
How about Spellcraft? It's a spellcasting class after all. Then again, the original Paladin didn't have it either. Not a huge deal, either way.Quote:
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft , Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Rope.
A solid step in the right direction. Paladins absolutely need more skills. It's a pain to see everyone only having space for Concentration / Knowledge (Religion)Quote:
Skill Points per Level: 4+Int Modifier.
I notice some new weapons added in. I'm not immediatey familiar with the maul or warmace but this rule is basically saying that a paladin will never against wield Tyr's favored longsword. Still, no big deal either way, and bastard swords slightly increase the attractiveness of shields (which are pretty unattractive, which is a shame. That's certainly an angle you can expand on: Creating houserules that make sword and board more attractive for the bastion in shining armor who stands as a stalwart protector to his friends. It's certainly something that the RAW system *does not* handle well, and something you could add that a Clericadin doesn't generally do. Think about it)Quote:
Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.
Less MAD is more powerful. Anyways, this change is fine. As I said above, statistics are a matter of preference, and should relate to what kind of flavor you want for the class (e.g., if Paladins are dumping wisdom, more easily manipulated, fooled, or dominated, as well as being less observant and aware of their surroundings or the psychology of other people. On the other hand, you've offset all this by giving them Sense Motive, Divine Grace, and bonuses against compulsions).Quote:
Spellcasting:
A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.
Certainly an improvement over the original paladin's spell list. Not impressive, and there are many points that could be improved upon (like having access to actually relevant healing for his character level! This guy's inferior to a 750g Healing Belt and never really gets better until he gets Heal. Consider possibilities like Delay Death + Diehard that a Cleric pulls for "A Hero Never Falls" moments and other epic paladinly scenes that they can do with their spells that this guy can't. Let the Paladin have the choice Cleric Paladin spells! Let the Paladin actually be relevant as a healer in a way other than being able to carry a wand around!), but it's better than the old Paladin. Not needing to prepare spells is great, too, and in my mind entirely fitting for the flavor of the Paladin. I don't really see them as sitting in prayer to set up their spells in advance. They are the favored servants of their deity and can call divine power spontaneously. I always felt they had more in common with favored souls than clerics in this regard, so I approve.Quote:
The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
Quote:
Spell List:
Spoiler
Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.
What, really? Any evil creature that looks at the paladin w/DG has to save or stun? What was wrong with the original rules for aura of good causing stuns via Detect Good?Quote:
Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.
Poorly written. You gain from a permanent spell effect, but not really the full effect unless you concentrate? Clarify what you mean. Also, having an always-on 60 foot cone (or radius) of Detect that doesn't require concentration is actually a pretty darned effective ability that can screw over Rogues, so it's something that you want to write up with "people will actually use this to win fights" in mind, rather than as a sort of fluffy afterthought.Quote:
Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good. He can tell whether a creature is good or evil at a glance, and he can concentrate to gain the full effects of the spell.
Don't like it. It's a rather boring vanilla damage boost, and does not capture any of the potential flair of pulling out that awesome smite to vanquish the greatest evil at the penultimate moment of the boss battle. It's just the same smite you used on his goblin minions after all. This doesn't really capture any of the potential epicness that Smite Evil could have.Quote:
Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.
Plus, this isn't actually a huge addition to the Paladin. If there's one thing the old paladin could already do, it was 100+ damage at level 5 with charge shenanigans. The paladin's problem wasn't that he couldn't find anywhere for damage to come from. He needs options, versatility in-game, utility... and the cool factor. There are so many places the Paladin concept could go with that that are sadly left unattended.
OK, so it seems you want to counteract the will saves and the easily fooled and not wise counsel part of making them cha focused instead of wis like a cleric. It seems odd that you seem to be saying that Paladins have all the benefits of wisdom while actually being fools under the class features with their 8 Wis (e.g. suddenly they can't sense motive if they Fall, without much conviction or will of any kind). I don't feel so great about that, whatever.Quote:
Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.
I mean, it seems like your picture is of the Wise paladin archetype, rather than the Big Dumb Hero (which is what the stat array will look like, Int and Wis are dump skills for this class). What's up with this? Your vision doesn't really have a cohesive flavor to me in this respect.
Why less times than the Cleric? Well, it'll probably turn out to be equal or more anyways, because of the Charisma focus, so whatever.Quote:
Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. If the charisma modifier is negative, it will subtract from this amount, to a minimum of 0.
OK.Quote:
Unwavering Devotion (ex): The Paladin is immune to fear, and gains a +4 bonus versus charms and compulsions cast by evil creatures.
As before, the Paladin does damage and has a high fort and will save.Quote:
Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.
So... Battle Blessing (what the old Paladin had), except limited to times per day, and no utility with full round spells, but you save a feat slot. Meh.Quote:
Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
This needs clarification. Anyways, clerics already do this via smiting spell, spell storing weapons, ordained champion... whatever.Quote:
Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.
Oh goody, maybe here I'll see something that will actually add new functionality rather than shifting numbers around! Let's see what we've got here.Quote:
Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool at the bottom of the page.
So, apply your normal numbers to nonevil guys. Meh.Quote:
Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider any creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.
More extra damage against evil guys... *yawn*Quote:
Holy Strike (su): The paladin's weapon is guided by divine forces to evil foes. He gains a bonus equal to his charisma modifier to attack rolls against evil creatures.
I had no trouble doing obscene damage to evil guys with the core paladin. I don't need any more.
Okay.Quote:
Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.
Whee, more damage. Isn't there a level 1 paladin spell that pretty much already does this? The important part here is the spell immunity that obviates a limited selection of creatures entirely. Sorry, Evil Descriptor Baddies. Forget turning them. No one actually cares about falling to -1 hp at the end of the fight. Heck I do that all the time with my Cleric/Prestige Paladin who goes Delay Death / Blade of Blood / Divine Sacrifice and hits herself for 25+ damage every turn. This is nothing new to me.Quote:
Sacrifice: Starting at 9th level, once per day (and an additional once per day per 5 levels thereafter) the paladin may, as a free action, pour all of his life into his ideals. For a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier, he glows with holy fire, ignited by his very life. This gives him a number of benefits.
First, he gains a +4 sacred bonus to strength & charisma for the duration (which extends the duration accordingly).
His weapons are considered one size category larger for purposes of damage, and the holy fires extend to the weapon, letting it deal an additional 1d12 damage per 5 paladin levels, up to 4d12 at level 20. Half of this damage is fire, and half is sacred.
Any spells with the evil descriptor, or SLAs from creatures with the evil subtype cast against the paladin that allow SR automatically fail.
At the end of this duration, the paladin collapses to the ground, at -1 hp and stable. If the paladin is of a type that would be destroyed at that hp total, he collapses to the ground at 1 hp and unconscious for a number of rounds equal to his sacrifice duration.
Okay.Quote:
Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.
More extra turning types. Whatever. You can get whatever kind of turning you want as a Cleric too.Quote:
Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.
However, unlike a cleric, you aren't DIFFERENTIATED from other paladins by what you turn. "I eventually turn everything" is just something paladins do in your world. They are turning machines and are all about optimizing turning and holding up a holy symbol and making things run away by stacking all the iffy +4 effective turning levels items and such. It works on practically everything they fight with your paladin, so there's no downside to the "Hey, I can turn 40 HD easy" builds. Why bother stabbing it or defending allies from it with your shield or other paladinly things? Whatever it is, hold up your holy symbol.
So, kinda like the paladin spell in the Spell Compendium that makes you explode when you get knocked out, except more powerful. Still, the sacrifice stuff has an air of epic that you didn't give to Smite. Or it would if it wasn't what your paladin would do once every day. Every day. With no real meaningful risks of consequences backfiring (unlike the Delay Death combo I mentioned, where the enemy could definitely turn that around on you if they played their cards right).Quote:
Holy Sacrifice: When the Sacrifice duration expires and the Paladin collapses, the fires surrounding him explode, washing over everything in the vicinity. Everything in a 10' radius is affected as if by a Holy Word or Dictum spell (Paladin's choice) cast at the Paladin's HD. The Paladin may end his Sacrifice prematurely in order to enjoy this effect; if he does so, the radius increases by 10' for every round he had remaining.
Whee, more damage... why do I need so much more damage? Why do you think more damage will fix the Paladin? I don't want more damage. Paladins actually aren't that bad in that department anyways. They need a better toolbox.Quote:
Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.
Ugh. Well, you certainly like the turning mechanic. Lots of other people don't, because it's kind a non sequitor with the rest of the game. And some might not like the concept of having "Turn Everyone" as a standby feature (it certainly doesn't fit in settings like, say, Eberron). But hey, whatever. Flavor's up to you. Of course, you could make an evil human flee like they were turned when you were level 1 as a cleric if you wanted this flavor.Quote:
Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.
This is actually cool, and definitely has potential for an epic scene. Still doesn't contribute to baseline functionality; the only thing you've really done in that department is improve the spell list (and keep adding more and more damage onto the Paladin for some reason).Quote:
Holy Surge: In times of dire need, the paladin expels all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall.
Okay, fine. Not a big deal unless you were fighting a larger number of high hp neutral people vulnerable to your forms of attack than Justiciar could handle already as a regular thing.Quote:
Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).
Let's see what these do...Quote:
Special Abilities:
Whoo, bonus feats from the Book of Vile Good. I mean, if you decide you don't want your knight in shining armor look and would rather switch out as an impoverished Saint in rags that deflect blows.Quote:
[spoiler]
Exalted Paladin:
The paladin instantly gains a bonus exalted feat.
Phantom Steed is good times. This is nice.Quote:
Special Mount:
The paladin adds phantom steed to his spell list. Instead of using the statistics for the phantom steed in the spell description, the paladin uses the statistics of a heavy warhorse or light warhorse (or war pony or riding dog, if a small sized paladin), modified as so. It gains all of the abilities from water walk on, but keeps its normal speed.
Cool! I can inspire my allies and support their saves. Something other than hitting evil for more damage or turning everything in sight.Quote:
Defender:
All allies within a 30 ft. radius of the paladin gain a divine bonus to saving throws equal to 1/2 his charisma modifier.
Why is the Paladin giving out Demon DR? This makes no sense in SO many ways!!Quote:
Crusading Defender:
Requires Defender
The paladin and all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain DR/Good or Lawful equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.
Are your paladins demons in disguise? What's going on? I have no idea, but that's messed up.
Meh.Quote:
Healing Defender:
Requires Defender
The Paladin & all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain fast healing equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.
This ability is very powerful. Unless you've found some other way to get permanent MCaE (there are a few), you always want to take this ability. All the time.Quote:
Defending Daeva:
Requires Crusading Defender
The paladin gains the effects of a permanent magic circle against evil out to 30' as a supernatural ability. A paladin with Knight Templar also gains the effects of a magic circle against chaos.
You just got Swift Crusader all day every day with the original paladin, save for the "OMG Turning everything as a swift action is my purpose!" thing.Quote:
Crusader's Mettle:
Gain an additional use per day of Swift Crusader.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.
Still harping on that note, mind that other creature types aren't building up Turn Resistance the way undead are.
Oh cool, so I can get Delay Death. But wait, one level higher? Why? I already am getting spells late because my progression only goes up to level 6. And I just gave up a special ability like "Everyone in the party gets +3 saves" or "Everyone gets Magic Circle Forever!" for this.Quote:
Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.
Meh.Quote:
Knight Templar:
All chaotic creatures are considered evil for the purposes of holy strike, holy smite, turn evil, and ineffable justiciar/destroy the destroyer. The paladin gains detect chaos as well as detect evil, and projects an aura of law as well as good.
Makes the turnadin more turny. I really don't like the concept of a dedicated turnadin, but that seems to be the main concept you're after.Quote:
Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.
Meh. Also, clarify if you're reducing the base speed or what.Quote:
Staggering Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned have their movement speeds reduced by 10' for the duration.
You just took two specials for this. My turnadin could have gotten +2 to checks, +2 to uses, and +2 to damage.Quote:
Improved Staggering Turn:
Requires: Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are slowed, as the spell, for the duration.
I get it. You think you can't run to catch up to a turned thing by the level you invested 3 specials. Or that you haven't taken any nice turning tools.Quote:
Potent Turn:
Requires: Improved Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are dazed for the duration.
Might care if your healing was worth anything. You don't even have Lay on Hands or divine health anymore.Quote:
Unliving Healing:
Positive energy cast by the paladin heals good creatures regardless of their type. This effect extends to the paladin himself.
My first impressions Conclusion:
Anyways, in all honesty, after fully reading it, I think it's kinda bad. I definitely wouldn't use it. Sorry.
This is in no way competitive with a clericadin, save for the very narrow possibility of pulling turn optimization out the wazoo and taking full advantage of the "turn everything, twice a round" side of things that seems to be the entire heart of your class (a flavor I personally can't stand. Why is the Paladin's way of dealing with everything apparently "turn it" later on?). I haven't actually run the numbers to see how feasible it is yet, though. I'm not in the habit of playing turning specialist clerics (I tend towards more paladinly ones, with swords and shining armor astride a mighty flying steed and so forth), but I know they get up in the range of turning some 40HD of undead, so I expect you'll get some hefty number, twice a round, that works on anything evil (though offhand I'm not sure how much of said turning optimization could actually be applied to your paladin, as opposed to a straight up cleric). Of course, until you actually are able to turn that thing, your stacking of special abilities is just a waste of time ("Your ability does not work on this thing. Try another castle." Kinda like the Rogue, except a lot of your abilities are "pay now for the future chance to be effective against what you can't sneak attack now!")
Seriously, pretty much all of the abilities you granted fall into one of the following categories:
1) Moar Damage! Not more ways to apply damage or more tactics or anything. Just Moar Damage When I Charge The Evil Thing!
2) Turn it! Turn it!
3) Piddly healing that's largely irrelevant when you get it, save in the sense it was relevant for the old paladin (I can use wands!). The best part is that you can have unlimited fast healing and thus heal everyone to full for free. But that's basically saying you're a more economic version of Cure Light Wounds.
4) Decent to good passive resistances (Magic Circle all day every day? That's a darned good thing) that don't require me to do anything in-game except stay in the general vicinity of the party.
Yeah? How?
What does this add that I can't do better with a cleric? The good parts kinda ended after "better, spontaneous spellcasting" and "more skill points." The rest makes my inner game designer cry.
It's sloppy, it's got poor flavor, and the mechanics just don't really mesh. See the old "Guide to Class Design" for admonitions about "suck now for benefits later" and other issues. And it doesn't help me be a divine bastion of the faith standing as a mobile wall against evil or anything cool like that, it lets me... turn undead like a cleric, except against anything. And do Moar Damage.
Here's the thing - cleric is tier one. Tier one means that cleric has a lot of options, such as being the healer, being the fighter, being the paladin, being the goddamn wizard and also being more powerful than the deity they worship. Balancing to Cleric isn't good balance. You wanna aim a bit lower - tier 3 or tier 2 - to actually hit the "sweet spot" at which D&D SHOULD be operating, given the power-level-of-heroes-fluff-as-written, as opposed to, say, RAW power levels.
Personally, I favor the Defender Tree of special abilities. If you pump Charisma, It makes you and everyone around you ridiculously tough, with high AC, free DR, A magic circle against evil and/or Chaos, and fast healing.
Forget the cleric's tier. You need something with a broader concept than "Turn it!" and "Moar damage!" See a Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage.
I'm not complaining that a cleric can be more powerful than this. I'm saying that the cleric plays the role better. Flavorwise and mechanically. And in mechanics, not just in terms of power, but in actually writing clean mechanics. It's not too hard to outdo WotC on that point, either...
And yet that's all stuff that's on all the time, and thus boring. Hence poor mechanical design. You need something a bit more active, kinetic, and tactical where the player has to make meaningful in-game choices and has more than one or two courses of action worthy of consideration (or at least POSSIBLE) at any given time.
Tiers are a method of describing how concept translates mechanically to versatility, my atheistic LG friend. Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage are all Tier 3 classes because they have a stunning amount of options while still remaining in defined roles. Tier one classes have SO MANY OPTIONS that they simply transcend the idea of roles altogether. One cleric can be an entire adventuring party unto himself; same song and dance applies to the Wizard. As such, the question isn't, "Why should I play this remake when Cleric does it better?" but rather, "Does this remake stand on its own when placed into its role?"
So, make something worth a bloody tier three. This isn't that. It suffers from many of the same design faults that the original paladin did and indeed doesn't seem to comprehend why the Paladin sucked in the first place.
Nevermind that the OP said he wanted it to be competitive with CoDzilla. I don't really care about that, I care that the class doesn't bring anything to the game. Tome of Battle, on the other hand, is awesome and brings all sorts of goodness to the game (even if Crusaders bother the heck out of me with the "I hit it so hard I heal people" thing. Argh)
I am aware of JaronK's tiers, thanks. And this doesn't fit into them appropriately at all. Like I said, the problem is that this class design kinda just sucks. It has no tactical versatility. Not as much as a cleric, and not as much as a ToB character either, and the sloppy mechanics don't really contribute themselves to compelling knight in shining armor flavor (though a couple of them at least try, like the wish thing). It doesn't even really require me to THINK as I play it, all you have to do is take defensive line and charge it and hope they don't do anything about it, or (maybe) see if turn optimization will let your turn anything.Quote:
Tier one classes have SO MANY OPTIONS that they simply transcend the idea of roles altogether. One cleric can be an entire adventuring party unto himself; same song and dance applies to the Wizard. As such, the question isn't, "Why should I play this remake when Cleric does it better?" but rather, "Does this remake stand on its own when placed into its role?"
Seriously, pretty much all of the abilities granted fall into one of the following categories:
1) Moar Damage! Not more ways to apply damage or more tactics or anything. Just Moar Damage When I Charge The Evil Thing! As if this was a problem for the Paladin before.
2) Turn it! Turn it! Unless I can't yet!
3) Piddly healing that's largely irrelevant when you get it, save in the sense it was relevant for the old paladin (I can use wands!). The best part is that you can have unlimited fast healing and thus heal everyone to full for free. But that's basically saying you're a more economic version of Cure Light Wounds.
4) Decent to good passive resistances (Magic Circle all day every day? That's a darned good thing) that don't require me to do anything in-game except stay in the general vicinity of the party.
It looks terribly boring to play and I could make a more fun paladin with other mechanics before I even start houseruling. And heck, if you think a clericadin is too potentially good, you can always intentionally make a worse build. It's easy peasy. For example, don't use Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell.
..Y'know, I think I misread your post as a claim of being able to 'brew a better pally fix. However, if you'd like to make the cleric argument, I should point out that it probably belongs in the Roleplaying Games section, rather than Homebrew; this is where we make the stuff and balance it, whereas concerns over new or interesting applications of pre-existing mechanics belong in RPG.
Possibly. When I said "I could make a more fun paladin with other mechanics before I even start houseruling." I meant "I could throw together various cleric builds, reformat them as a selection of options and present it as a new class, and call it a Paladin. And it would be more solid than this." I wouldn't have actually changed any rules. I just would have called a Cleric build option a Paladin.
And I'm saying that a homebrew should actually improve or add something new and interesting to the rules in some way (meaning, something the rules don't already do). If it doesn't, then what's the point? If it's less effective than the existing rules, it's not good homebrew.Quote:
However, if you'd like to make the cleric argument, I should point out that it probably belongs in the Roleplaying Games section, rather than Homebrew; this is where we make the stuff and balance it, whereas concerns over new or interesting applications of pre-existing mechanics belong in RPG.
In order to balance out this new Paladin class, you need to expand its conceptual horizons. Swift Crusader? That's Battle Blessing. The old paladin had it. Eventually turn more stuff? Why is that a Paladin focus? Moar Damage? That was never the problem to begin with. A bunch of passive resistances? I'd like to actually make some choices in-session, too, thanks...
Often, to fix the rules that are already there. There's no denying that you're better off with this 'brew than with the standard pally, aye? Then it's done its job. Anything else is just icing on the cake. So what if Cleric can do it better? Cleric can do things better than HIS DEITY.
I may be better off with this brew than with the standard pally, but that's like saying I'm better off with the Fighter than the CW Samurai. It doesn't matter, because I'm using a Warblade. You could make a dozen classes that were better than the CW Samurai and no one would care because being better than the CW Samurai isn't enough to make a cool class.
I could say "just playing a Cleric" is a fix to the Paladin. And you'd be better off than playing the standard pally (just like you are with this class).
But to many folks, it does matter. They're married to a specific flavor. They want full B.A.B. or don't want spellcasting. They want their sheet to say "Paladin", damnit, so that's what they're writing, optimization be damned. They want detect evil as an SLA and they want to heal people by the POWER OF PELOR with nothing more than a poke to the arm.
Cleric can't do any of that. Not that way. Can it produce the RESULTS? Certainly. It can produce them much better, with a bunch of chanting and mumbo jumbo and praying and other BS. But for many folks, no matter how you refluff it, a cleric will never be a paladin.
Look, if you'd like to have this discussion specifically (namely, the purpose of homebrew), it really deserves its own thread; let's stop blowing up Gorgon's on this tangent, aye?
1: BAB isn't flavor. Even if it was, you can get full BAB up to some +19 from a Cleric with Clericadin PrCs (Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Abjurant Champion, Bone Knight, Prestige Paladin, etc etc)
2: This Paladin homebrew has spells. I checked.
3: The reason why it does matter to many folks are because those folks are the same folks who can't figure out why Cleave and Steel Wind are basically the same thing, and think that one is irredeemably "anime" and thus will break the flavor of their game.
Really, by far the biggest thing that this change does, beyond breaking charge damage harder or Turn The Heathen!, is just move up the spell list 4 levels.
And thus you prove my point. That has nothing to do with flavor whatsoever. That has to do with arbitrary prejudice. Rename the Cleric class Paladin and you can put Paladin on your sheet. Nothing in the game will change.Quote:
They want their sheet to say "Paladin", damnit
I could appease those people by, as I mentioned previously, actually writing a "paladin fix" as actually a bunch of renamed options from a cleric build and those people seriously wouldn't know the difference. I mean, this isn't just conjecture or anything, people did this before on the old 3.5e WotC boards before WotC nuked their own database. They also did it for the Fighter.
For example, remember the "Divine Sacrifice" spell the Paladin gets? Blade of Blood is practically the same thing, except with less number variation (5 self damage / 3d6 damage instead of 10 self damage / 5d6 damage).
What you have to understand is: You're not trying to compete with the core Paladin for the title of Real Holy Warrior any more than you're competing with the CW Samurai for True Knight. You're competing with something like the Prestige Paladin, or any number of other viable clericadin builds. You don't need to make it as powerful or more powerful than that, but you at least have to make it as *cool* and *fun* as that, instead of walking around with a guy who just exists to be a vessel for passive bonuses all day and try to charge or turn things.
And that's what actual flavor is. What's actually happening inside the game world. The fact that it says "Full BAB" on your base class template doesn't actually mean anything. A guy with a +1 from, say, I don't know, weapon focus from the War Domain and 19 BAB from level 4 cleric = 16 levels of full BAB PrCs has the exact same full attack routine as the guy with the 20 BAB in reality.Quote:
Can it produce the RESULTS? Certainly.
Saying Paladin on your sheet isn't flavor. People calling you Paladin in the game world is flavor. Saying paladin on your sheet is just metagame nonsense. It's like saying that Miko can't be a samurai because she doesn't have Samurai on her sheet. Please, think of the Mikos! :smalleek:
And if that's all they care about, then, as I said before, you can just rename a selection of Cleric builds "Paladin" and call it a Paladin fix. Seriously. You can do that. It doesn't have anything to do with rules or in-game flavor.
Whether you're right or not, you're going about this in a generally rude and unfriendly manner. With all due respect, please stop.
The way you speak. It's in your syntax.
...calling you rude is flaming?
Fine.
You call other people's opinions silly and generally act as if they don't matter. You essentially say 'By the way, you don't need to make this class.', when with that reasoning you don't need any class beyond core. Here's a thought; have you considered that there are people who LIKE making mechanics? Mechanics aren't always a means to an end, they can easily be an end in themself.
You use exclamations and generally rude words.
What's more, I'm good at noticing tone through words. I spend most of my life on the internet and a large proportion of it on this forum. Unless you are putting on an act of being unfriendly and a little rude, at best, then I trust in my interpretation.
I'm not responding to this again, because I'm not going to change your mind, however many posts I make, and I'll probably break a rule if I keep going. Like Gareth said, your issue seems to be more with the purpose of homebrewing than this class.