My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046
After some feeback from another thread, I came to the conclusion that my efforts were better served in a separate thread, where it would not clutter up the original discussion. :smalltongue:
By now, it would be no small secret that many of the monsters in MM2, while fun from a flavour/coolness perspective, were not assigned appropriate crs. In light of new insight gleaned in 3.5, we noticed a few common trends which we will try to work around. The goal is to have their crs serve as more accurate indicators of how challenging they should be in combat, and maybe iron out a few kinks along the way.:smallwink:
1) Higher lv monsters tend to be given tons of weak SLAs they will never find a reason to use in combat, yet this counts towards their cr.
2) Monsters with a ton of HD, but poor defenses (eg: no dr/sr/weak saves) and attacks (few attacks, low damage), making them little more than a speed bump.
3) Asymmetrical design. For example, the teratomorph has 28HD, but only a single attack with extremely variable effects. Or a monster may have a very powerful ability that merits a certain cr, but its stats are too weak for a monster of that cr (eg: the phoenix).
I am not going to take the trouble of redesigning each monster from the core up. For most part, I feel that many of the MM2 monsters are still usable as is. Some just need a change in cr, others a bit of restatting, and a few need more drastic makeovers (but we will address this when we get there). :smallamused:
Second, I am not addressing them in order, nor will I likely touch on each and every one. If any wish to contribute, by all means feel free in any way you deem fit. Your feedback would also be much appreciated.:smallsmile:
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
Monsters tackled this far
By LotrFan
Abeil to Darkmantle
By Wotc
Demons:
Abyssmal Ravager - Reduce cr from 5 to 3
Zovvut - Reduce cr from 9 to 7
Kelvezu - Reduce cr from 18 to 14
Devils:
Malebranche - 2 versions exist. The MM2 version was revised upwards from 9 to 12, while FC2 improved its stats to make it a more worthy cr14.
Giants
Hellfire wyrm
Leviathan
Linnorms
Megapede
Ocean Strider
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...vvHiJFWc9kb9Zg
Leviathan - Obviously too high at cr25, especially when elder evils has a similarly-named creature, which at cr16, has more attacks, and just more useful overall in a straight-up fight. I would recommend that you forget this ever existed but if you wish to use it, then I feel its 'real' cr should be closer to 15 instead.
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm...268_620_69.jpg
Hellfire wyrm - First thoughts is that its attack routine is utterly worthless at its level, averaging just 40 damage, and at a paltry +30 to-hit (at a point where PCs average 45-50 AC). So in the end, you get a dragon-shaped spellcaster of sorts. At this point, low-lv SLAs like charm, suggestion, hold person, unhallow, desecrate, misdirection, pyrotechnics and wall of fire just don't cut it, due to the PCs' likely high saves and resistances.
Not only that, but its caster lv of 20 means that its blasphemy/dictum SLAs won't affect PCs of 21th lv or higher, leaving improved invisibility, firestorm, greater dispelling, teleport and unholy aura as its more useful abilities. So it is essentially relegated to the role of an aerial bomber. However, its key attacks can easily by negated (freedom of movement counters crush, heroes' feast makes frightful presence moot, resistances/immunitues negate firestorm/breath weapon). So you need quickened dispels to get rid of the players' buffs first.
Suggestions -
1) Advance its HD to 25 to increase its size to gargantuan.
2) This improves its physical stats (str38, dex10, con31), hp 412, AC38.
3) Attack routine (+35/+35/+35 with improved multiattack)
4) Damage: Rapidstrike/rend (draconomicon), improved natural attack
5) Crush affects up to medium sized targets.
6) Replace feats with quicken sla: greater dispel, snatch, power attack, rend, flyby attack, rest your choice (suggest multiattack/rapidstrike/INA: Claws).
7) New cr is likely closer to 18-20, ensuring its blasphemy/frightful presence remains relevant, using the chichemic (ELH) as a yardstick.:smallsmile:
Let me know what you all think? :smallsmile:
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Runestar
By now, it would be no small secret that many of the monsters in MM2, while fun from a flavour/coolness perspective, were not assigned appropriate crs. In light of new insight gleaned in 3.5, we noticed a few common trends which we will try to work around. The goal is to have their crs serve as more accurate indicators of how challenging they should be in combat, and maybe iron out a few kinks along the way.:smallwink:
1) Higher lv monsters tend to be given tons of weak SLAs they will never find a reason to use in combat, yet this counts towards their cr.
2) Monsters with a ton of HD, but poor defenses (eg: no dr/sr/weak saves) and attacks (few attacks, low damage), making them little more than a speed bump.
3) Asymmetrical design. For example, the teratomorph has 28HD, but only a single attack with extremely variable effects. Or a monster may have a very powerful ability that merits a certain cr, but its stats are too weak for a monster of that cr (eg: the phoenix).
Why are all these examples of under-CRing? What about lower-CR monsters with SLAs that they should have no business at all of having, like the infamous Adamantine Clockwork Horror? Or monsters with stats far more powerful than their CR would indicate, like The Damned CrabTM the Monstrous Crab?
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NNescio
Why are all these examples of under-CRing? What about lower-CR mosnters with SLAs that they should have no business at all of having, like the infamous Adamantine Clockwork horror? Or monsters with stats far more powerful than their CR would indicate, like The Damned CrabTM the Monstrous Crab?
I may start working on them at a later date, however, as you will notice, similar work has been done on another thread (link is in the first post), and I see little point in duplicating his work. The clockwork horrors and crab have already been addressed there. :smallsmile:
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
The phoenix does lose polymorph as part of a splatbook-wide errata which basically removes all shapechanging powers from monsters unless it is integral to their fluff.
The crappy DC was partly why I mulled over the monster of legend template. Between the +10con and +4 DC ability, this raises the final DC to 31 (or 33 if you give it ability focus), much more respectable but the small radius is still an issue.
Else, I can't really see how the phoenix fights. Holly berry bombs are cumbersome to spread and do pitiful damage, while the rest of its SLAs are either defensive or healing in nature.
And wow did it take a lot of time and effort typing out and organising those entries. My respect for all those thread handbook authors just went up a few notches! :smalleek:
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
I guess DC 31 isn't so bad, but Rogues are still going to Pounce into its face and Evasion out of the blast pretty much with impunity it they're buffed and geared decently (though I guess the uncanny dodge is its own headache for them.)
Losing Polymorph really hurt here more than it did to a lot of creatures, because it added some much needed versatility to its one trick pony-tude. I can sort of picture a situation where the party can't kill it and it just follows them around with its 200 foot fly speed making a complete nuisance of itself, and it might be really annoying to deal with a horde of them all together or supporting a bigger monster or guarding a puzzle-trap, but its going to take that sort of a goofy situation for it to really shine.
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
Also, some sort of feedback would be appreciated as well. For example, your experiences with using these monsters in general, your thoughts, any areas for improvement? For example, are there anything else you would like to see, or feel could be done better? :smallsmile:
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
One thing I've seen in general is that even at high levels, dumb melee brutes have their uses if properly supported. Not to say that those poor excuses for giants are any good, but in general big melee beasts can do well if buffed and geared up and supported in combat by casters. Due to all the anti-casting investment that gets more and more intense at higher levels, simple melee monsters often benefit from having less build resources dedicated to dealing with them.
Re: My attempts at recalibrating the MM2 beasties
You hit it on the Ocean Strider. That picture is really awesome when I'm flipping through the books looking for a monster. Then I look at its stats and its CR and I just keep looking. You haven't done any that I've used yet.