The Beast: Twice the Power, Half the Brainpower! [3.5 Base Class, PEACH]

The Beast

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...hulk033108.jpg
-Hulk Smash!

Some adventurers get by with arcane magic. Others make do with martial prowess. Yet more pray to gods, or hone numerous skills, or tap into powers unimaginably complex. Beasts aren't like them; they do things with brute force.

Beasts are stronger, tougher, and eventually even much larger than other members of their race. The reasons for this can vary: one Beast might have a monstrous ancestor whose blood triggered their brutish traits, another could owe his impressive physique to a random mutation, and some might even be the result of magical experiments gone horribly wrong (or horribly right...). Whatever the source of a Beast's powers, his strength and durability are second to none, and some might look more like monstrous creatures than normal adventurers.

Adventures: Beasts might adventure for a variety of reasons. Some seek the treasures that come with the high-risk profession, while others simply wish to prove their might to the world. Unlucky Beasts, especially those from civilized lands, are exiled from their homes either for an act of temper or out of simple discrimination.

Beasts might have more violent motives as well. Many will hold a grudge against an enemy for quite some time, and could go to extreme lengths to get their revenge. Others simply have a taste for blood, and use adventuring as an outlet to quench their primal urges.

Characteristics: The ways of the Beast are simple. They can go all out, every fight, since they don't have any abilities with limited uses to keep in reserve. They get right up in monsters' faces without worrying much about tactics, since unlike the rest of their party, they're probably stronger and tougher than most of them one on one. They don't care much about antimagic fields, since each and every one of their abilities are Extraordinary. Their best, and only, power is simply being themselves: they can knock down castle gates with a backhand swing or take as much punishment as some entire adventuring parties without going down.

Alignment: Beasts are generally of chaotic alignment, roaming the land and doing what they will, but this is by no means always the case. Some Beasts are lawful, and serve as henchmen to spellcasters or as warriors for a great nation. Beasts have no natural inclination towards good or evil, but the more savage specimens who revere nature tend to be neutral on the moral axis.

Religion: Many good Beasts follow Kord, who values their immense strength and steadfast demeanor. Beasts in tune with nature often worship Obad-Hai, and might feel more comfortable in the wild than their original homeland. Evil Beasts, or those from savage races, tend to follow Gruumsh, Vaprak, or Erythnul. While some Beasts are Lawful, few worship Lawful deities, disdaining even the tactical acumen of Heironeous or Hextor for the more direct style of the Chaotic gods.

Background: Beasts can be born from populations anywhere, and they often begin to manifest their nature young. Because of the disruptions this can cause to civilized life, few of any race have much of an education, and many lack even an accepting family to fall back on during hard times.

Some enterprising villains (or adventuring parties) will recruit a Beast from a young age, hoping to use their brute force as a counterpart to their more subtle talents. Such Beasts are often fanatically loyal, having been rescued from difficult situations and suddenly treated to luxuries they had never dreamed of.

Since Beasts get their powers from a variety of circumstances, they rarely feel any camaraderie towards each other. Two Beasts are as likely to be rivals as allies, and if one perceives a slight from another it is often judged all the more harshly due to their similarities.

Races: Beasts tend to come from strong or tough stock, and many wilder races prefer the Beast class; any race with Barbarian as its favored class may treat Beast as its favored class instead. Orcs and Half-Orcs, as well as Ogres and Half-Ogres routinely become Beasts. A variety of other races might become Beasts, but few Beasts start off with a size smaller than Medium.

Other Classes: Since Beasts are rarely clever, they don't lead others very often. A Beast might roam the lands alone, or might follow the lead of other characters in an adventuring party. Beasts are especially likely to follow Druids, and to associate with other natural classes such as Rangers and Barbarians.

Among Orcish or Ogre tribes however, a Beast's sheer ferocity might bring him to the top of the pecking order, leading a horde of savage warriors. Such tribes are often easily fragmented, and the Beast must constantly be vigilant or lose his elevated position to a challenger.

Role: A Beast is a tank in every sense: he hits hard and can take a pounding himself. Often Beasts try to get the brunt of attention on them, engaging in melee with either annoying lockdown tactics or charging for lots of damage and aggro. In some cases a party of spellcasters will rely on a Beast to get them out of bad situations if they run out of spells, or save the day when confronted with Antimagic Fields or enemies immune to magic. The Beast benefits in return, getting useful buffs from the spellcasters and favorable battlefield control to help him do his job.

Starting Age: As Barbarian

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Strength is obviously an important ability for a Beast, increasing his attack bonus and allowing him to perform ever more outrageous feats. Constitution is another of the Beast's favored abilities, especially since it adds its bonus twice to each Hit Die when calculating hit points. Some Beasts favor Dexterity as well for ranged combat and AC, but others neglect it by using Heavy Armor and get by with Strength alone in ranged combat. Beasts generally don't care very much about mental abilities, but some have enough Wisdom to let them Spot or Listen for enemies, and to augment their good Will Save.
Alignment: Any
Favored Classes: Any race with Barbarian as a favored class may instead choose to treat Beast as their favored class.
Starting Gold: As Barbarian: (4d4 x 10) gp

The Beast

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Str Boost	Con Boost	Natural Armor Boost
1st	+1	+2	+2	+2	Doubled Hit Dice, Beastly Skills	+0	+0	+0
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+3	Unhindered Movement	+2	+0	+0
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+3	Darkvision 60 feet	+2	+2	+0
4th	+4	+4	+4	+4	Powerful Build	+2	+2	+1
5th	+5	+4	+4	+4	Lesser Beastly Defense	+4	+2	+1
6th	+6/+1	+5	+5	+5	Beast Trait	+4	+2	+1
7th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+5	Fast Movement +10 feet	+4	+4	+1
8th	+8/+3	+6	+6	+6	Lesser Beastly Defense	+6	+4	+2
9th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+6	Beast Trait	+6	+4	+2
10th	+10/+5	+7	+7	+7	Size Increase	+6	+4	+2
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+7	Lesser Beastly Defense	+8	+4	+2
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+8	Beast Trait	+8	+6	+3
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+8	Fast Movement +20 feet, Giant Beast	+8	+6	+3
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+9	Greater Beastly Defense	+10	+6	+3
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+9	Beast Trait	+10	+6	+3
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+10	Size Increase	+10	+6	+4
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+10	Greater Beastly Defense	+12	+8	+4
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+11	Beast Trait	+12	+8	+4
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+11	Fast Movement +30 feet, Beast's Persistence	+12	+8	+4
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+12	Greater Beastly Defense	+14	+8	+5

Hit Die: 2d8
Note: Beasts add twice their Con modifier to their hit points per level instead of just their Con modifier.

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points for First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points for subsequent Levels: 4 + Int modifier
Note: Beasts can't invest skill points in cross-class skills keyed off Intelligence or Charisma, even at 1/2 rate.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Beast is proficient in all Simple Weapons, and Light, Medium, and Heavy armor, but not shields. They have little actual martial skill, but their impressive physique makes wearing even the heaviest armor easy.

Doubled Hit Dice: Beast Hit Die are 2d8s, and you add twice your con modifier to the amount of hp you gain from the dice roll (or the average of 9), instead of just your con modifier.

Each HD from the Beast class counts as two for the purpose of all harmful effects on the Beast. For example, a 3rd level Beast (effective 6 HD) is immune to the Sleep spell, and an 11th level Beast (effective 22 HD) will take no effect from a CL 20 Blasphemy spell. In addition, a Beast's resilient Hit Dice make it impossible for them to permanently lose levels from negative levels, as long as the last level the Beast took was in the Beast class.

The Beast's HD don't count as doubled for any other purpose: he still gets BaB, Saves, Feats, and ability score boosts normally, and any of his own abilities that key off HD treat one Beast class level as one HD.

Beastly Skills: Beasts gain a bonus to Climb checks, Jump checks, Intimidate checks, Survival checks, Strength checks, and Constitution checks equal to half their Class level rounded down. However, Beasts can't invest any skill points in cross-class skills keyed off Intelligence or Charisma when they take levels in Beast. A Beast who takes levels in different classes doesn't have to heed this restriction for those classes.

In addition, Beasts do not know how to read and write. A Beast may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. If a Beast gains a level in any other class, he becomes literate, and a character who had levels in another class before he was a Beast does not lose any literacy he already had.

Ability Score Boosts: In addition to normal ability score boosts, which Beasts get once per four levels (just like other characters), Beasts get an extra boost to Strength and Constitution as they level up, as noted on the table (the number on the table is sum of all the Beast's boosts up to that level).

Natural Armor Boosts: The thick Hide of a Beast provides some protection against attack. A Beast's natural armor bonus is increased by the amount noted on the table (the number on the table is sum of all the Beast's boosts up to that level).

Unhindered Movement (Ex): At 2nd level, a Beast no longer takes any movement penalty from any armor he is proficient in. In addition, he takes no armor check penalties to any skills except swim, for which he takes only the normal ACP instead of double it.

Darkvision (Ex): At 3rd level, a Beast gains Darkvision 60 feet. If a Beast already had Darkvision from some other source, add 30 feet to the range of his Darkvision.

Powerful Build (Ex): At 4th level, a Beast gains the Powerful Build ability. Whenever a Beast is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as grapple checks, bull rush attempts, or trip attempts), the Beast is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Beast is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Beast can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.

If the Beast already had Powerful Build or later gains it again from some other source, he instead gains an additional +4 bonus to grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts.

Lesser Beastly Defense (Ex): At 5th, 8th, and 11th level, the Beast chooses a defensive ability from the following list. He can't make the same choice twice, and can't change his choices once he's already made them.

Lesser Beastly Defenses:

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Dancing Beast: The Beast gains the Evasion ability from the Rogue class in the SRD. Evasion works for the Beast in any armor he is proficient in.

Deathless Beast: The Beast becomes immune to ability damage and negative energy damage.

Dodging Beast: The Beast gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to half his Hit Dice (rounded down), and the Uncanny Dodge ability from the Barbarian class in the SRD. Uncanny Dodge works for the Beast in any armor he is proficient in.

Healing Beast: The Beast gains fast healing equal to his Constitution modifier (minimum +1).

Laughing Beast: The Beast gains DR 5/-. In addition, he chooses two energy types from Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic and gains Resistance 15 to both.

Oblivious Beast: The Beast gains Spell Resistance equal to his HD + 10.

Tough Beast: The Beast gains the Mettle ability. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would normally have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. This works even when the Beast is helpless.

Willful Beast: The Beast gains the Slippery Mind ability from the Rogue class in the SRD.

Beast Trait (Ex): At 6th level, and once every three levels thereafter, a Beast gains an ability of his choice from the following list. He can't make the same choice twice, and can't change his choices once he's already made them.

Beast Traits:

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Grasping Limbs: The Beast gains a Climb speed equal to his land speed, and can attack with light weapons normally while climbing. Having a Climb Speed grants him a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and allows him to take 10 on Climb checks even when rushed or threatened. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing, and enemies gain no special bonus on attacks against him while he is climbing.

Hooked Nose: The Beast gains the Track Feat and the Scent ability from the SRD, and may add his Constitution modifier to Survival checks instead of his Wisdom modifier.

Martial Training: The Beast gains proficiency with all Martial Weapons, and all Shields, including Tower Shields.

Monstrous Mien: When the Beast uses an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent, he can demoralize all opponents that he threatens that can see him instead of a single enemy he threatens. He makes a separate check to demoralize each opponent. In addition, he may add his Strength modifier to his Intimidate checks instead of his Charisma modifier.

Nomadic Grace: The Beast gains the Mounted Combat feat, and may add his Constitution modifier to Ride checks instead of his Dexterity modifier.

Primal Instincts: The Beast gains Blindsense 30 feet, as described in the SRD. In addition he can add his Constitution modifier to Listen checks instead of his Wisdom modifier.

Sharp Claws: The Beast gains primary claw attacks on his hands, which deal 1d8 damage if he is medium, 2d6 is he is large, and 3d6 is he is Huge (consult the SRD on Effect of Weapon Size for appropriate damage for other sizes). He can still hold weapons or manipulate objects with any of his hands, but if he does so he can not use his claw attack with that hand. Creatures hit by the claws must save against Poison, with Fort DC 10 + 1/2 your HD + your Con modifier, or take 1d4 Constitution damage (1d4 secondary Constitution damage).

Stealthy Strides: The Beast may add his Constitution modifier to Hide and Move Silently checks instead of his Dexterity modifier. In addition, the Beast gains permanent Nondetection, as the spell from the SRD, on himself, except that it is an Extraordinary ability he can temporarily lower as a Standard action. His effective caster level equals his HD, and for the purposes of DCs the effect is treated as if he cast it on himself.

Webbed Feet: The Beast gains a Swim speed equal to his land speed. Having a Swim Speed grants him a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and allows him to take 10 on Swim checks even when rushed or threatened. In addition, he can breathe water as well as air.

Wild Behavior: The Beast gains the Wild Empathy ability, as the Druid in the SRD, but may add his Constitution modifier to the check result instead of his Charisma modifier. In addition, the Beast may add his Constitution modifier to Handle Animal checks instead of his Charisma modifier.

Fast Movement: At 7th level, a Beast gains a +10 foot bonus to all his speeds. At 13th level, a Beast gains a further +10 foot bonus to all his speeds, for a total of +20 feet. At 19th level, a Beast gains a further +10 foot bonus to all his speeds, for a total of +30 feet.

Size Increase: At 10th level, a Beast grows by one size category. His reach and space increase as normal, and his height, weight, and carrying capacity are appropriately adjusted, but do not adjust his ability scores or natural armor for size as noted in the monster manual. This ability stacks with the Beast's Powerful Build ability.

At 16th level, a Beast grows by one size category again. As before, his reach and space increase as normal, and his height, weight, and carrying capacity are appropriately adjusted, but do not adjust his ability scores or natural armor for size as noted in the monster manual. This ability stacks with the Beast's Powerful Build ability.

Giant Beast: At 13th level, all Beasts which are Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids change their type to Giant (don't recalculate previous racial HD). All Beasts which are Animals instead change their type to Magical Beast (don't recalculate previous racial HD). If the Beast isn't any of those types, don't change his type. If the Beast's type changed, he gains the Augmented subtype as usual.

In addition, the Beast's class HD change from 2d8 to 2d10. Recalculate hit points from previous class levels appropriately.

Greater Beastly Defense (Ex): At 14th, 17th, and 20th level, the Beast can either choose a Lesser Beastly Defense ability he hasn't taken yet, or choose a Greater Beastly Defense ability he's already taken the Lesser version of. To choose an ability from this list, he must already have the corresponding ability from the Lesser Beastly Defense list.

Greater Beastly Defenses:

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Dancing Beast: The Beast gains the Improved Evasion ability from the Rogue class in the SRD. Improved Evasion works for the Beast in any armor he is proficient in. In addition, the Beast gains a bonus to his Reflex save equal to half his Hit Dice (rounded down).

Deathless Beast: The Beast becomes immune to negative levels, death effects, ability drain, and any penalties to his ability scores.

Dodging Beast: The dodge bonus to AC from the lesser version of this feature is increased to a dodge bonus equal to the Beast's HD. The Beast also gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability from the Barbarian class in the SRD. Improved Uncanny Dodge works for the Beast in any armor he is proficient in.

Healing Beast: The Beast gains the Regeneration ability, and heals an amount of nonlethal damage per turn equal to his Constitution modifier (minimum +1). This is in addition to damage healed by his fast healing ability. Choose an energy type from Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid: the Beast loses any Resistances or Immunities he had to that energy type (and can never gain any), and that energy does lethal damage to him.

Laughing Beast: The Beast's Damage Reduction is increased to DR 10/-, and he becomes immune to the two energy types he chose with the Lesser ability.

Oblivious Beast: The Beast's Spell Resistance increases by 10, and the Beast gains temporary hit points equal to five times the spell's level whenever his Spell Resistance negates a spell's effects on him.

Tough Beast: Whenever the Beast rolls a natural 1 on a saving throw, he automatically rerolls the save. In addition, the Beast gains a bonus to his Fort save equal to half his Hit Dice (rounded down).

Willful Beast: The Beast becomes immune to Compulsions, and supernatural effects based on Compulsions (such as a Vampire's Dominate ability). In addition, the Beast gains a bonus to his Will save equal to half his Hit Dice (rounded down).

Beast's Persistence (Ex): At 19th level, when the Beast is brought back to life by a spell or effect that normally causes loss of a level (such as Raise Dead) he doesn't lose a level. In addition, he can't permanently lose levels as a result of failing saves against negative levels.

In addition, the Beast's class HD change from 2d10 to 2d12. Recalculate hit points from previous class levels appropriately.

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Feats
(For Beasts and other classes)

Extra Beast Trait
Prerequisite: At least one Beast Trait
Gain a Beast trait from the Beast class list you don't already have.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times.

Extra Beastly Defense
Prerequisite: At least one Greater Beastly Defense
Gain a Lesser Beastly Defense from the Beast class list you don't already have.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times.

Compact Form
Prerequisite: Size Large or larger
As a full-round action, you can reduce your size from your current size to any size Medium or larger. For each size category you shrink, you gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity and a -2 penalty to Strength. Your reach, space, weight, and carrying capacity change as normal. This effect is an extraordinary ability, and lasts until you dismiss it as a full-round action.

Blurry with Speed
Prerequisite: Fast Movement Class Feature
All your speeds increase by 10 feet, plus 5 additional feet per 6 HD you have.

Indomitability
Prerequisite: At least one HD with all three good saving throws
Gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws, plus an additional +1 bonus per 6 HD you have. This feat counts as Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

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Class Development Notes (Round Three): Language issues and some legacy text with the Doubled HD should be clarified now, they no longer provide anything except defense against Blasphemy etc and all the extra HP.

Some of the more vanilla abilities (vision, fast healing, DR) have been incorporated into various choices the Beast can make as he levels up to customize his abilities. I like the way the class develops from 1-20 now, as I think it allows for a a good cost/benefit ratio to multiclassing in terms of what you get for how many levels. This should more or less be the final setup for how the class works, but anyone with any suggestions with regards to abilities feel free to speak up.

(Round Four): I added a useful and flavorful capstone which shouldn't really boost the power any (since ideally you wont be winding up dead in the first place, especially with this class). I also added a couple feats for Beasts. Lastly, HD hp was cut back to the "original" 2d8, mostly to limit power at very early levels (and because Giants use d8s). HD hp does however scale with Giant Beast and Persistent Beast, which were moved to 13 and 19 respectively to juice up what were probably the weakest two levels in the progression.

The Deathless Beast line was buffed a bit, with immunity to Death effects (sort of a silly thing to miss there) added to the Greater Ability. Greater Willful Beast was switched to immunity to Compulsions, and Nondetection was moved to the Stealthy Strides Beast Trait.

What if you take a race that has spellcasting depending on HD? :smallconfused:

IIRC, you can find races casting as Sorcerer of their HD, meaning 9th level spells at 9th Character level, plus a mountain of hitpoints at that.

Even if the 'half HD' rule applies to spellcasting, too, you essentially end up with Sorcerer with d20 hit die instead of d4, far more Charisma, and taking the feat which allows you to buy cross class skills at a cost of 1 skill point per rank negates the only weakness (which is free anyway thanks to increased feat gain)...

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Even if the 'half HD' rule applies to spellcasting, too, you essentially end up with Sorcerer with d20 hit die instead of d4, far more Charisma, and taking the feat which allows you to buy cross class skills at a cost of 1 skill point per rank negates the only weakness (which is free anyway thanks to increased feat gain)...

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Impossible, as the feat you described is a racial feat. It can only be taken by humans and dopplegangers. (Able Learner, Races of Destiny)

Well this is pretty boring.

Well, I haven't been around for a while so I may be a bit rusty but let me get back to what I do best, being old and cranky while providing some wisdom mixed with senility...


Hit die and associated benefits:
I see what you are trying to do here but you are just making it far too complicated with your "this is equal to 1/2 HD but under a few conditions it is full HD". You like the 2 x Con, fine, make it a class ability. You want more hit points, fine, just make it +5hp each Beast level. The smaller number of exceptions where you want to count as double HD can be listed as a resistance class feature.

Reducing word count is good. Removing extra calculations is good.

Now as for the planned extra feats and ability increases you can now fill dead levels with bonus feats. You can make it a class feature that you gain an ability increase every 4 levels (I would recommend that it be limited to a physical stat or just to Str or Con). Which only makes sense because eventually somebody is going to want to multiclass and you just added a pile of extra calculations which were based off of the assumption that the character would be only singleclassing to level 20.

The added BAB can be again added back as a set of class abilities to fill in dead levels. The first is that the Beast uses his Strength modifier when throwing objects instead of Dex. The second is that an added bonus to hit be applied to melee and thrown weapon attacks (because how much does it make sense that this guy could just pick up a crossbow or something and start picking off guys that the dedicated ranged fighter has problems hitting?).


Class skills:
Having no class skills seems pretty weak. What about Jump? If we use the Hulk like you seem to be wanting then the Beast should be able to make large leaps. What about Climb? Again, we see Hulk crawling up the sides of buildings and mountains, gouging large handholds as he goes. What about Intimidate? Hulk bellows at people all the time and makes their bowels loosen as he does so. Seems like there should be at least a few skills that are part of the package.


Weapon and armor proficiencies:
You don't have any. Beast should at least be proficient with unarmed attacks and thrown objects.


Saves:
Uh... what? That is just a jumbled mess. And a 20th level Beast is going to have a better base reflex and will saves than any other class? Really? That's not even getting into the Fortitude save which should be high but... again, really? Scaling off of HD here is just plain Wrong (That capital W was intentional).


Ability score boosts:
Don't have a lot to hate about those. After all, it is one of the best class abilities the Beast has.


Natural armor:
Progression is far too slow if you are making an armor-free class. Your AC just became the lowest of all the classes, not something to be proud of.


Powerful build:
A class like this should never be without it. Good call.


Fast movement and size increase:
Why are these separate abilities? Most creatures move faster when they grow larger but here they are disconnected. For some reason you start running fast then grow and keep the same speed. That is just plain weird.

Then the results of the size increase itself, namely the fact that larger creatures get a penalty to AC and attack. Again your AC plummets. Sure would be nice to have some natural armor to make up for that but now over 20 levels a medium sized character has gained 5 AC but lost 2 to size increases for a total of +3 for a class that has no armor proficiencies. That is bad.

Giant Beast:
Whatever. You aren't really gaining anything of value. If you include type abilities the Giant can get low light vision and weapon proficiencies. And I guess you just lowered your chances at hitting dwarves. I'm not even sure why you would be playing as an Animal or giving one PC levels. If you were then you can have darkvision 60ft. Everything else is already included in Animal.


Unleashed Beast (Ex):
OK. I guess.



Final thoughts:
The entire class is all over the place.

1) Saves are way too high compared to every other class in the game.
2) You can hit with ranged weapons better than dedicated range fighters.
3) You have no talent with skills you really should have.
4) You have no proficiency with any form of attack nor armor.
5) Not only that but your natural armor does nothing to make up for your lack of AC.
6) Size changes and speed increases don't sync and are just confusing.


I kind of understand what you were thinking of doing here but the result is just too much of a mess. Sorry, it's just the honest truth.

It's a cool idea, but, like Lert, I see a few problems.

The elephant in the room, Hit Die. 2d8 is good. 2d8+2x Con is very good. Counting as a creature with twice as many hit die for the purposes of spells and such is also very good. That being said, I would hesitate to base BAB, saves, and so on off these hit die. You can give lots of bonus feats, and you already give lots of bonus ability enhancements, but I'd stick to basing things on class level. It's generally less cumbersome, and the fact that it means that you are the most skillful fighter in your level bracket isn't good.

My recommendation is to keep the 2d8 HD, and throw in an ability about counting as a creature of twice your HD for the purposes of hostile magic, etc, etc.

• Lack of weapon and armor proficiency is probably an accident, but an important one. I'd give the druid list for armor-- light and medium, as long as it's just something's bloody hide wrapped around your torso. Simple melee weapons, and all of the martial bludgeoning things. Then again, I'm sure you have your own ideas here.
• Lack of class skills is bad. Again, I'd give 2+Int modifier skill points per level, as normal, rather than having them based off HD. Have a short list with the strength-based skills (jump, climb, swim, etc), and maybe a few other physical things. Also, Intimidate, with an ability to use your Strength instead of your Charisma. That gives some social interaction ability, and it fits with the class.
• NA bonus isn't bad, but probably not enough for a no-armor class, massive health or no. If you give armor, leaving it where it is is fine. If not, I'd add your Constitution modifier to the bonus.
• Why no damage reduction?

Lack of Weapons and armor proficiency was just a mistake, I'll fix that (full martial simple and heavy probably).

In hindsight the HD thing probably got rather out of control. I was trying to simulate the way Giants work, with lots of empty HD all piled up together. The lack of class skills was to balance that because you get skills for each HD, not each level. I think I'll rework the Doubled HD ability into being an effective doubling against hostile magic, and just give it perfect saves and BaB. With the HD/class level/skill situation fixed I'll add appropriate class skills.

As for class abilities, I'll probably go with some Bonus Fighter feats every couple levels, and maybe add in some fast healing and damage reduction.

The fast movement was separated from size increases (like the ability points were) to spread out the class' benefits.

Looking at all of the criticisms, I'm not quite sure if I'm looking at the same class as everyone else or if I'm just looking at it in the wrong way. While this class does look odd, a lot of the math behind it does seem to work when I look a bit in depth.

The Doubled HD: As far as I can tell, this is the entire point of the class. Take this thing away and there really is no point of making this class... at all. Areas where these extra HD would be overpowered are purposefully addressed and seem to be taken care of well (mentioned below). Even so, I am a bit worried about dragonborn mongrelfolks starting campaigns with 40+ hp at level 1, which might at well be invincibility at that level (though the terrible AC might compensate for that somewhat).

The Hidden Class Features: Along with everything else that this class gets, this guy gets a couple of benefits from its doubled HD that can't be put on the advancement table as multiclassing would make such tables liars. Namely, this character gets twice as many ability bonuses as a normal character (40/4= 10 +1 bonuses) and gains 7 bonus feats (at least if it isn't multiclassing). These bonuses shouldn't be totally discounted.

The Skills: At a first glance, having absolutely no class skills looks wierd and bad. As this guy gets 2 HD per level (and twice the skill points), however, it all evens out nicely. Due to the doubled HD and skill points, this class can effectively max out any 2 + Int modifier skills of their choice, though the maximum is reduced from level + 3 to level + 1 (basically a -2 penalty to all skill checks in return for having all skills as class skills). As this method is a simple method that prevents early PRC access through skill ranks, I don't see any particular problem with it and it actually seems like a relatively elegant solution.

The one thing that I'm unsure about is the way that this system allows your brute to specialize in forgery and knowledge skills just as easily as more physical skills. Perhaps give a +2 bonus to skill checks made using certain skills at first level (somewhat like a druid's nature sense) to "emphasize" those physical skills. :smallconfused:

The Saving Throws/BAB: Though these aspects of the class table look wierd and uneven, the math does seem to match the two-HD-per-level formula perfectly. I personally don't see the problem with high saving throws as most folks don't bat an eyelash at characters who like to load themselves up with immunities (which I'd view as more powerful but less versatile). In the end, I don't see either attack bonuses or saving throw bonuses as being so overpowered.

Also

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Originally Posted by Lert, A.

Fast movement and size increase:
Why are these separate abilities? Most creatures move faster when they grow larger but here they are disconnected.

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Um, these things are disconnected pretty much everywhere. While it's true that larger creatures do tend to move faster, I seriously can't think of a single spell or effect that increases your size and speed simultaneously. Enlarge Person? Nope. Righteous Might? Nope. Giant Size (that Wu-Jen spell that lets you become colossal)? Nope. That mountain rage ability goliath barbarians get? Nope. Unless you want to go into polymorph and similar effects like body of war from the spell compendium, size and speed are totally disconnected across the board.

The main problem that I can see with the class is as follows:

In order to keep this class more or less balanced, you had to remove everything that traditional classes use (such as proficiencies or class skills) to focus a class in a particular manner.

As mentioned above, this guy can choose to be a professor of many forms of knowledge with his skill points if he chooses (which I'm guessing is against you intention even if it does match with Bruce Banner) and his high attack bonus makes him the best at any form of combat that he chooses to specialize in (ranged, unarmed, TWF, or otherwise). Between the ability boosts and feats, there is very little to focus this class on his actual "hulk-ness".

I'm not sure if this guy really needs armor proficiencies seeing as your intention may have been for the massive hit points to absorb the damage (and you can more than absorb the attack roll penalty to wearing armor without proficiency at high levels) but some manner of weapon proficiencies would be nice so that you get a bonus to attack rolls before 3rd/4th level. Some abilities to help focus or limit what this class does would also be nice.

If putting effective limits on this class to focus it makes things too wordy and complicated, however... use your discretion.

Edit: And, of course, I've been swordsaged. :smallsigh:

Looking at this class, I'd have to say that like Realms of Chaos, I'm confused by most of the responses. In short, I'd have to say I agree with Realms of Chaos on all the points he made.

Owrtho

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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

Impossible, as the feat you described is a racial feat. It can only be taken by humans and dopplegangers. (Able Learner, Races of Destiny)

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And? :smallamused:

I bet you any decent CO board will somehow mesh this with a race that grants you HD spellcating, using just teeny tiny bit of PunPun cheese, in four hours, tops :smalltongue:

Oook. After all that work undoing doubled HD because everyone hated it, everyone likes it now? I think this formulation might be more elegant anyway, but I can always change it back if people want!

Edit: I'm adding back in Doubled con mod to hp though, just because!

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Originally Posted by DeAnno

Oook. After all that work undoing doubled HD because everyone hated it, everyone likes it now? I think this formulation might be more elegant anyway, but I can always change it back if people want!

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That is a good change, yes. Another good change is the addition of more actual class features.

Two questions: Why DR/lawful? And why does it get 2 skill points (+Int)/level at levels 2-20, but 4 (+Int, x4, yadda yadda) at level 1?

Needs more rage. Barbarians are all about being more animalistic, so if this guy is even worse than them, he should be able to rage

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Originally Posted by DeAnno

Oook. After all that work undoing doubled HD because everyone hated it, everyone likes it now?

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...I didn't hated it, I just pointed out how it can be abused... :smallconfused:

Well, this class is a BEAST. *crickets* Right. Gotcha.

So, this is T4, maybe on the high end. It does one thing. OH YES. It is the tank of all tanks. With a d20, Con bonuses, 2x Con mod, Fast healing = Con Mod (later double), three high saves, DR (Lawful is weak, but still.), Blind sense, armor proficiency that negates ACP, this is a TANK. Not entirely indestructible, but preeeeetty good. This and Barbarian especially do a good synergy. The only way to make it better is to start grabbing Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

So, this is overpowered, but only in the one thing it does (tanking), with a pretty good base in DPS. I'd let a player play it, but only with very careful supervision. This could get out of hand easily, especially with the afore-mentioned feats (and did I mention the +14 Str boost?).

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

That is a good change, yes. Another good change is the addition of more actual class features.

Two questions: Why DR/lawful? And why does it get 2 skill points (+Int)/level at levels 2-20, but 4 (+Int, x4, yadda yadda) at level 1?

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Skill thing is a typo, will fix to 4+ (I figure Bruce Banner has been punished enough by now). The DR/lawful seemed flavorful, but I don't like it being Su (as it has to be). I could change it to DR/- and just go with it I suppose, it barely matters in most cases anyway.

As for Rage, a Beast is pretty much constantly Raging due to his boosts and size. There aren't too many Barbarian-esque builds that can get you +14 Str, +8 Con, +5 NA, and two size categories in a Rage. Also, I wanted to avoid all abilities limited by day or encounter with this class. My first DnD character was a Barbarian, and I was always disappointed at how I had to hold back and manage my rages per day like some kind of spellcaster.

EDIT: Also, I just realized this thing is the king of melee gestalt :smalltongue:

Nice. This thing is just a moving rock. A fast moving rock at higher levels. This would make an interesting cohort for a BBEG...

*cackles*

My players will possibly hate me.

I love it.

Lots more good stuff. Looks pretty snazzy now.

The reason for the complaints about the double hit die was partially from a bookkeeping point of view- the skill points and feats being particularly cumbersome- and the mountainous BAB.

That being said, I don't especially like the d20 hit die, as it's a little too random. Something like 2d8 or 3d6 will have a similar average, but will more reliably give you a solid chunk of hit points. I might also drop the BAB back to medium-- as you said, he's not especially skilled, just really ******* strong.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

That being said, I don't especially like the d20 hit die, as it's a little too random. Something like 2d8 or 3d6 will have a similar average, but will more reliably give you a solid chunk of hit points.

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I didn't even realize anyone actually rolled hit points for PCs. I guess I'll go to 2d10 just in case.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

I might also drop the BAB back to medium-- as you said, he's not especially skilled, just really ******* strong.

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I'm more or less envisioning his natural instincts letting him get all those BaB attacks in, and the additional accuracy of the BaB being a less game destroying way to represent his prowess than even more strength (which I'd have to add, since at this point I don't think he's overpowered anymore). I'll take it under advisement though. I want to avoid slowly making him into a harmless tank class; he should be able to give it out as well as take it.

might give it a slam... the idea being that is is built like a tank, it should be able to flat out smash
edit: perhaps a set of natural attacks in place of weapon proficiencies?

The class has certainly improved. Still, a few thoughts on how it is now.

Skills:
Improved, but I agree that you should allow Intimidate to be keyed off of Strength. Sure, you get a bonus of half your class level already but it fits well thematically and is not unprecedented.

Unleashed Beast:
Since you are going with a strong capstone I don't see a problem with throwing in DR 15/- for free. It's another incremental boost but adds to the flavor of reaching towards peak potential.

Although as it is written now everybody should take Spell Resistance. Sure, regeneration is nice and all but nowhere else in the game can you get SR 55 pre-epic. You are literally outclassing the biggest, baddest dragons here.

Anyways, good work with the improvements (AC no longer broken, yay!).

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Originally Posted by Lert, A.

The class has certainly improved. Still, a few thoughts on how it is now.

Skills:
Improved, but I agree that you should allow Intimidate to be keyed off of Strength. Sure, you get a bonus of half your class level already but it fits well thematically and is not unprecedented.

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Don't forget he also gets a +8 from size increases alone.

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Originally Posted by Lert, A.

Although as it is written now everybody should take Spell Resistance. Sure, regeneration is nice and all but nowhere else in the game can you get SR 55 pre-epic. You are literally outclassing the biggest, baddest dragons here.

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It's only SR 35, with all the attendant drawbacks, at least if I'm reading the new HD rules right. Still pretty good. OTOH, I don't think it would be hard to hit a Con score of 40 by 20th level, giving Regeneration 30, on top of Fast Healing 30 and DR 12/-. :smalleek: You're not killing that guy with anything short of a SoD-- and even then, probably not.

I would totally play this guy.

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Don't forget he also gets a +8 from size increases alone.

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I didn't forget. :smallwink:

If you want to make a Hulk emulator then keying off of Strength for the classic Hulk feats is needed.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

It's only SR 35, with all the attendant drawbacks, at least if I'm reading the new HD rules right.

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Maybe. Hard to say. It does say HD + 15 but the description of how the double HD are used is a bit muddy. Now it's not completely clear whether you get double the number of feats (class notes still indicate yes but description is unclear) or if those HD are used only for hp and to resist effects.

A bit more clarification will eliminate all doubt.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Still pretty good. OTOH, I don't think it would be hard to hit a Con score of 40 by 20th level, giving Regeneration 30, on top of Fast Healing 30 and DR 12/-. :smalleek: You're not killing that guy with anything short of a SoD-- and even then, probably not.

I would totally play this guy.

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It has truly become a great class.

The DR, Fast Healing, and Capstone abilities have been revamped into Beastly Defense. You can get very similar abilities to before if you wanted, but there's a lot of choice involved so you can customize your defenses around your theme, enemies you're likely to face, or buffs and gear you expect to get. All of the abilities are still passive and defensive in nature, and I've tried to make them all pretty attractive. Input on which seem underpowered and overpowered would be appreciated.

As for other concerns, I clarified that Hit Dice work mostly normally now (except in regards to defending against Blasphemy etc), and I plan to work up a bunch of utility options to replace/augment where the vision abilities are now, probably including a Climb speed and keying Intimidate off Strength.

EDIT: Also added a bunch of new fluff.

I don't have time for a full look right now, but you left in a clause under "Ability Score Boosts" that refers to getting the normal increases once every two level.

Thanks for the catch there absolmorph, I fixed it.

I've added some customization to the class via choosable defensive and utility features. They've incorporated similar things in their options to what they took the place of, so building a similar character to the old version should still be possible. There are 8 two-tiered Beastly Defense features, and you can only get 6 total choices (so 6/16 features); there are 10 total traits, of which you can only get 5. I feel like this is enough choice to make things interesting, but if anyone has any ideas for more choices I'll consider those too.

I'm also considering a fairly vanilla line of feats, Extra Trait & Extra Beastly Defense especially, though I am concerned that the greater defenses (and possibly even lesser defenses) are probably too powerful to be accessible through feats.

I particularly like this setup of "splitting" the Capstone to 14/17/20, along with Huge size at 16, since it allows you to do various amounts of Multiclassing and still get some, but not all, of the powerful stuff towards the end.

As an actual, final level 20 capstone, you could yet include an ability that allows a Beast to come back from the dead after 3d10 days or so if killed, with only a wish or miracle preventing that.

Okay this is a class I would play in a heartbeat. Of course the challenge would be in finding someone that would allow a player to use this class. But hey if there would be anyone that would be up for it, kudos to you :smalltongue:

As for the class itself, people have already explained it better than I could, so I'll ask about the size increase. The actual effect itself rather than the crunch part seems a little iffy to me. We know at 10th level the character would probably be an utter brute, but how would becoming huge size work? Even Hulk doesn't get that big... I think. :smallconfused:

Hulk grows to Collossal, if the people in the background and the tanks he steps on are any indicator.