Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

Okay, so I'm trying to build a character who's a bit of a mad scientist, obsessed with things arcane and natural. Out of combat, he'd be the party brains. In combat, we don't have a dedicated tank, but this guy would serve more of a control/attacker role instead, who uses lunging maneuvers. The build is is mostly magus with 1-2 levels in alchemist, which gives more skills (e.g. perception), mutagens, and some other little tricks. I know it's not optimized but at least it looks like fun.

Background info - the rest of the party:

• Environment/control caster and scouting bird, a druid.
• Arcane glass cannon and one-shotter of bosses, a sorcerer.
• Courage-inspirer and bandaid, a bard.
• Skillmonkey and parkouring minion-killer, a rogue.
• Ranged switch-hitter and abuser of AC tricks, a gunslinger/swashbuckler.

This means that I get the good int- and str- boosting items, and they get the good light armor.

Background info - campaign and house rules:

• Skull and Shackles. Combat is either open sea naval warfare or narrow underwater caverns. Swim is important.
• No hex magus, or using cantrips for free spellstrike attacks. No vivisectionists.
• We stop at level 14. So I can't get to the level 20 super-magus anyway.

Right then. This guy starts at level 7, and will be taking alchemist next level (8). Here is the character sheet. The important parts are under the feats/special ability section. Note: You see that weird stuff in the 3rd column? Those are feats and features that I intend to take, but I'm not sure when.

Alright. How bad is the character build? How can I modify it to make it more feasible?

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Originally Posted by punchbeard

Right then. This guy starts at level 7, and will be taking alchemist next level (8). Here is the character sheet. The important parts are under the feats/special ability section. Note: You see that weird stuff in the 3rd column? Those are feats and features that I intend to take, but I'm not sure when.

Alright. How bad is the character build? How can I modify it to make it more feasible?

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Well that looks pretty solid.

Let's see. I don't see the point of the Alert trait, considering it gives you a 10 on init and on average you'll roll that anyway. Touched by the sea isn't very good either since you already have swimming as a class skill. So that would save you a feat on extra traits.

In terms of feats, Lunge and Lunging Spell Touch are redundant; you only need one. You can't take Lunge at level 5 though since your BAB is too low. Natural spell combat is meant for any natural attack that's not your hand, e.g. a bite or gore; this is because you can already spell combat with your hands or claws. And power attack is not something a Magus should take, particularly not one with only moderate strength.

For the alchemist, an 1d6 bomb is not going to be useful at this level, so any archetype that trades it out is good. For your discovery (if you even want one), focus on the mutagen, such as Elemental or Feral mutagen, or on defense (e.g. Preserve Organ or Spont Healing). Heck, take a feat for an extra mutagen and then level as Magus.

And yes, Hasted Assault is a good pick. In fact, at this level you should try to be hasted every single combat, one way or the other.

HTH!

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Let's see. I don't see the point of the Alert trait, considering it gives you a 10 on init and on average you'll roll that anyway. Touched by the sea isn't very good either since you already have swimming as a class skill. So that would save you a feat on extra traits.

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Good point. I swapped Survivor & Alert for Suspicious & Reactionary.
Additional Traits doesn't allow multiple traits from the same list, so it's either Magical Knack or Magic Lineage.

I'm obligated to take one campaign trait, Touched by the Sea reduces the penalty for underwater fights, which are probably going to happen a lot.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Natural spell combat is meant for any natural attack that's not your hand, e.g. a bite or gore; this is because you can already spell combat with your hands or claws.

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Are you sure? The feat's language implies that without the feat, you can't use spell combat with claws. Spell combat says that it only applies when the magus is "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand". Spellstrike just says "wielding", although Natural Spell Combat doesn't mention spellstrike. I'll have to consult the GM.
I picked this because I'd probably use mutagen and monstrous physique (as a gargoyle) for full attack combos.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

And power attack is not something a Magus should take, particularly not one with only moderate strength.

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That's where the mutagen comes in. I can't use spells every turn, so power attack would help. Plus, I'd invest in a strength-boosting wondrous item (Belt of Physical Awesomeness or something).

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

For the alchemist, an 1d6 bomb is not going to be useful at this level, so any archetype that trades it out is good.

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I think the only non-bomb archetype is vivisectionist, which house rules don't allow. I don't like the tradeoff of taking a 3rd alchemist level (-1 Fortitude, -1 Reflex, -1 level 2 spell, and -1 level 4 spell, +1d6 bomb, +1 level 1 extract, and basic beastmorph (alter self)). I could spend a discovery to make the bombs have crowd control purpose, like Tanglefoot Bomb, since the damage is pitiful.

Here's an odd question: When a magus uses Arcane Pool to give their weapon an enhancement bonus, does that mean the weapon itself is magical? I ask because if the magus drops their weapon, it would be convenient if the magus could use Mage Hand to grab the weapon (as part of spell combat)... but this won't work if the weapon itself is magical.

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Originally Posted by punchbeard

That's where the mutagen comes in. I can't use spells every turn, so power attack would help. Plus, I'd invest in a strength-boosting wondrous item (Belt of Physical Awesomeness or something).

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Nope, still wouldn't help. If you want to 'power attack', you set your weapon to +2/flaming/shocking instead of +4; that's -2 to hit for +7 to damage and saves you the feat. Ta dah!

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Here's an odd question: When a magus uses Arcane Pool to give their weapon an enhancement bonus, does that mean the weapon itself is magical? I ask because if the magus drops their weapon, it would be convenient if the magus could use Mage Hand to grab the weapon (as part of spell combat)... but this won't work if the weapon itself is magical.

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Well you should be carrying a magic weapon anyway, since that stacks with arcane pool. Besides, I don't think dropping your weapon (or getting disarmed) is all that common.

At early levels when you don't have a magic sword, the arcane pool abilities can really give you an edge vs DR/Magic enemies. Also I am going to agree with Kurald on Power Attack; its kind of pointless. In addition, you're not going to be wielding your sword 2-handed all the time, so you don't get half the point of the feat.

Ok, so no power attack. Fair enough. I'm concerned about turn economy (even if the bard Hastes everyone). Any relevant feats to help with that? Remember, this guy will get Magus 12, tops, so some of Kurald's recommended high-level feats can't apply.

Regarding str/dex - The difference is +1 between modifiers. Higher str means slightly higher hit chance, slash damage, and CMB, but arcane pool enchanting accounts for that somewhat. The higher dex means +1 AoO (and AC and initiative). I won't be getting dex-boosting wondrous items, but intend to get str-boosting stuff later. Is this a bad tradeoff?

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Besides, I don't think dropping your weapon (or getting disarmed) is all that common.

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What about the gargoyle form? That uses claws. You can't use manufactured weapons as part of a full natural attack.

...Actually, can you make a full natural attack, but choose to exclude specific natural weapons that would otherwise be part of it? I guess that would mean you could keep holding the 1-handed sword, while using bite and the claws of your other hand(s). Right?

When making a full attack normally you can use natural attacks, just with a penalty.

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Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph

When making a full attack normally you can use natural attacks, just with a penalty.

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No I don't mean a full attack that includes natural and manufactured weapons. I mean a full attack with only natural weapons, where you don't use a held manufactured weapon.

EDIT: Never mind, I was being dumb and forgot the rules. Full attacking with 4 natural weapons has the same penalties as full attacking with 3 natural and 1 manufactured ones.

So, about those feats...

I know this has been discussed in the context of polymorph, but any help/ideas/advice on a non-polymorphed natural attack build would be welcome.

Also, I think you might have been a little harsh on the Fiend Flayer archetype. You don't lose any options outside of race selection and an emergency source of arcane pool points could be nice, even if you'd only ever want to use it out of combat. Also, "Fiendblade" (the arcana that gives you the conjured magical weapon) is usable as a swift action and could be a thing for some dual-wield builds. On the whole, I consider this archetype to be orange (situationally useful).

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Originally Posted by MasterFu

I know this has been discussed in the context of polymorph, but any help/ideas/advice on a non-polymorphed natural attack build would be welcome.

Also, I think you might have been a little harsh on the Fiend Flayer archetype. You don't lose any options outside of race selection and an emergency source of arcane pool points could be nice, even if you'd only ever want to use it out of combat. Also, "Fiendblade" (the arcana that gives you the conjured magical weapon) is usable as a swift action and could be a thing for some dual-wield builds. On the whole, I consider this archetype to be orange (situationally useful).

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There's no tradeoffs from taking the Fiend Flayer archetype, as long as you were going to be a tiefling anyway. At minimum, it provides some worst-case scenario options. So you're correct that there's no reason to not take it, because it's essentially a free archetype, but I think Kurald was saying that there's nothing particularly good about it. You gain access (not free) to two arcana that seem to apply to two very specific situations.

Fiendblade, as far as I understand it, prevents an enemy from disarming you and taking your weapon. Maybe that could happen, but it's rare. Bypassing Strike is only useful against evil outsiders, and how often does that come up? (Actually, if you're in a campaign where evil outsiders are common, then yes, that's quite powerful.)

Fiend Flayer would have been appealing if (1) you gained more than 1 arcane pool point in return for losing your level's worth in HP, and/or (2) the extra arcane pool point lasts as long as your Constitution damage lasts.

Evil outsiders are definately one of the more common enemies. Devils and Demons come up a lot, at least in the campaigns I've played.

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Originally Posted by Sayt

Evil outsiders are definately one of the more common enemies. Devils and Demons come up a lot, at least in the campaigns I've played.

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Yes; this is why the L12 arcana Devoted Blade is great. However, the fiend blade costs a pool point and a swift action (both limited resources) to bypass DR on a single attack. And you pay an arcana slot for this privilege; this is just a bad deal.

As Punchbeard points out, the problem with this archetype is not so much what it costs to take (i.e. nothing), but what it costs to use (i.e. in any kind of emergency, taking con damge is a really bad idea).

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Originally Posted by Sayt

Evil outsiders are definately one of the more common enemies. Devils and Demons come up a lot, at least in the campaigns I've played.

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In that case, Bypassing Strike would help out. But you can't use it all the time, and you'll need a reliable way to compensate for losing CON.
Maybe, fitting the flavor, you could take Magical Lineage for Vampiric Touch. Are there other ways to deal with the CON loss?

Have you seen the Eldritch Archer archetype? It looks like it could make an actual ranged magus worthwhile.

Added arcana: Distant Spellstrike, Reach Spellstrike.
Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Combat Reflexes, Destructive Dispel, Elemental Spell, Intimidating Prowess, Maximized Spellstrike, Outflank, Spontaneous Metafocus.
Spells: Fire's Friend, Sleet Storm.
Weapon enchants: Agile, Heartseeker, Nimble Shot, Sapping.
Equipment: Corset of the Vishkanya, Dweomer’s Essence, Familiar Satchel, Maiden’s Helm, Polymorphic Pouch, Sandals of Quick Reaction, Sipping Jacket, Bardiche, Fauchard.
And dips / prestige: Fighter, Shaman, Arcane Trickster, Dragon Disciple.
(and fixed a few typos)

I'd reccomend adding PoW:Expanded's Harbinger into the Magus list. A single level dip already provides half intelligence to attack rolls, plus the benefits of a stance and maneuvers for use.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Aquatic Agility - In a ship-based campaign, this can be a life saver. In most campaigns, however, it is too situational, and it's easier to prepare yourself for water by carrying a potion of Air Bubble.

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Question about this: Would it be better to take Spell Blending instead of this? At level 6, you could use Spell Blending to pick up Air Bubble and, say, Touch of Fatigue. Air Bubble lasts longer (minute/level vs. round/level), and with a sufficient swim score, you can pass the rough water penalties; if you have it prepared, recalling it would cost an arcane pool point anyway. The only real cost is that it would require a level 1 spell slot on the days you would use it. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by punchbeard

Question about this: Would it be better to take Spell Blending instead of this? At level 6, you could use Spell Blending to pick up Air Bubble and, say, Touch of Fatigue.

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I wouldn't recommend it. First, in most campaigns you don't know in advance when you're going to fall into water, meaning that reserving one of your (relatively few) spell slots for it isn't so great. Second, by the time you're level 6, you should be able to fly or be able to get it pretty soon, which obviates the need for swimming.

That's why I recommend putting one skill point in swim and carrying a potion from level one.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

I wouldn't recommend it. First, in most campaigns you don't know in advance when you're going to fall into water, meaning that reserving one of your (relatively few) spell slots for it isn't so great. Second, by the time you're level 6, you should be able to fly or be able to get it pretty soon, which obviates the need for swimming.

That's why I recommend putting one skill point in swim and carrying a potion from level one.

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Alright. Suppose you're in a campaign where you're always around water, either under it or on boats. You might invest 1 point in swim per level anyway. Point is, you expect swimming to come up often, and for extended periods of time - as in more than 1 round per level. In that case, wouldn't Air Bubble be more efficient?

I mean, you'd use up 1 spell slot, as opposed to 1 arcane pool point (unless recalled). In combat, you would spend 1-2 arcane pool points to enchant your weapon... right? You only get so many per day.

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Originally Posted by Tuvarkz

I'd reccomend adding PoW:Expanded's Harbinger into the Magus list. A single level dip already provides half intelligence to attack rolls, plus the benefits of a stance and maneuvers for use.

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I can't find this class online; is it on one of the free d20srd sites?

So weird question.

If I was really, really bent on making a Gnome Magus, do you have any tips on making it as good as possible? Like, do they have any possible strengths I can play to?

PoW Expanded is still in playtest, I believe. Once it's released it will be on the PFSRD.

You can find the playtest here.

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Originally Posted by tadkins

So weird question.

If I was really, really bent on making a Gnome Magus, do you have any tips on making it as good as possible? Like, do they have any possible strengths I can play to?

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Just because gnomes aren't an optimal race for a Magus doesn't mean they're bad at it, either. Just go for a regular dex Magus, grab the exotic weapon of your choice, and play to the Magus's strengths. Pretty much every green or skyblue option would work for a gnome as well.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Just because gnomes aren't an optimal race for a Magus doesn't mean they're bad at it, either. Just go for a regular dex Magus, grab the exotic weapon of your choice, and play to the Magus's strengths. Pretty much every green or skyblue option would work for a gnome as well.

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I was considering taking Fell Magic and focus on the Necromancy flavored Magus spells, but beyond that I wasn't sure what else I could do. Thanks much. :)

Also, I've finally added the new archetypes,

• Mindblade, which is a solid choice primarily because of some gems on the psychic spell list
• Esoteric, which is surprisingly bad considering a normal Magus can already use all his class features with unarmed combat anyway
• Eldritch Archer, which is very powerful and already banned in PFS for good reason.

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Originally Posted by tadkins

I was considering taking Fell Magic and focus on the Necromancy flavored Magus spells, but beyond that I wasn't sure what else I could do. Thanks much. :)

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Oh yeah, conductive weapon + Hexcrafter is a nice combo. Note that fell magic doesn't work in spell combat.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Oh yeah, conductive weapon + Hexcrafter is a nice combo. Note that fell magic doesn't work in spell combat.

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The only hexes a Conductive weapon works with AFAIK are the healing hexes, as by RAW it only works on effects that require a melee or ranged touch attack.

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Originally Posted by ICN

The only hexes a Conductive weapon works with afaik are the healing hexes, as by RAW it only works on effects that require a melee or ranged touch attacks.

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Hm, yeah that wouldn't work. Ok, conductive + one-level dip into wizard, then. Possibly.

Or just go for the debuff stack of Frostbite + Rime Spell + Enforcer feat + Menacing weapon.

Something to note is that the Skinwalker race was recently changed in Inner Sea Races; Nightskulk's distraction ability is terrible, and Scalehearts no longer have the same ability score modifiers.

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Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph

Something to note is that the Skinwalker race was recently changed in Inner Sea Races; Nightskulk's distraction ability is terrible, and Scalehearts no longer have the same ability score modifiers.

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Yeah, I did unlist the str/int option. What's distraction like these days? It doesn't seem to be changed on d20pfsrd...