I made the "Champion of the Common Man" ability a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixStone93
I made the "Champion of the Common Man" ability a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixStone93
A lot of the concepts for the Veteran Tricks are fine in theory, but are substantially lacking in prerequisites and far too powerful for their level.
- Battlesense: Blindsight is pretty good. I'd restrict this to around 6th level.
- Bonus Feats: Any three feats. This is a lot of feats, and isn't limited to a list. Probably a bit much.
- Counterattack: This needs more than a once per round limit on it to prevent it from completely shutting down certain attack forms and strategies.
- Defender: Wow this needs so much more detail and wording. How far can you move? What if the attacker is adjacent to their target (that is, normal melee conditions?) If you intend for this to just combine and modify its prerequisite tricks, you need to really spell it out.
- Dominating Shout: No. Just, yikes no. Boosting skills is easy, and the wording just begs for someone to find a flat DC use of intimidate so they auto succeed on dominating mind-affecting immune enemies for days at a time. Or you could just get swift or move action dominate and spam this, which is also terrifying. Not only should this not be accessible at such a low level, but it needs revamping to prevent abuse.
- Full Attacker: The standard action thing? That's fine. Its basically just better pounce. Double full attack though, that's too much. Tome of Battle does the double full attack thing too, and people like it... and its once per encounter, and accessible at 17th level. Consider a Flurry of Blows equivalent instead.
- Headslam: The massive impact this trick has is ridiculous. It needs to be toned down in basically every aspect.
- Heroic Killing Blow: This is unclear, and probably overpowered. 'Hit' is not proper language. Be clear what the benefit is. Is every attack an automatic hit? Is every hit an automatic critical? Is it just that you provoke a save vs. death on each attack, which is what I think you're going for?
- Iron Mind: This is just better Mind Blank. Mind Blank comes online at about level 13 at the earliest (15 normally) and I recommend a comparable prerequisite level. Also, "telepathies" is both not a word, and also a strange immunity to give. How can you even be immune to telepathy, and why would you want to be?
- Loyal Companion: Come on, at least make the character act like a normal cohort. Making them equal to your level is nuts.
- Mortal Wound: Vague wording is always a bad idea. Define exactly what you want it to bypass and do, else you end up with an ability that turns off the sun. (Making me miss due to high AC reduces my damage, right? :smallamused:)
- Paragon: Perfection bonus is not an existing thing. Which is not bad, necessarily, except you go on to say it can stack with itself, so there's no reason to give it a named bonus type. Just remove it.
- Perfect Aim: I suggest clearing up exactly how this interacts with total concealment/invisibility.
- Snap Out Of It!: First, this should probably involve a check rather than being automatic. Second, breaking any illusion by yelling lets you do stuff like say, remove someone's invisibility or displacement. Third, telepathies still isn't a word and also isn't something you'd need to snap out of in the first place.
- Snap Shooter: This is terrifying. I suggest making a very specific list of what can and cannot provoke an AoO, else you will end up with shenanigans.
- Sudden Movement: The immediate action movement needs a limitation for the same reason as Counterattack.
- Terrifying Presence: If the penalty is that broad, scaling, and applied in so large an area, it needs to allow a save or something.
- Unbound Feat: This will only end badly. I can't immediately think of something horrible, but I'm sure there will be something to make it a thing of great regret.
- You have no power over me: No. Not only is this too broad, but this kind of ability should not exist.
I could say the same of the wizard spells with which the Veteran is supposed to be keeping up.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberVael
Meh. You probably have other priorities when you only have five tricks to choose from anyway.Quote:
Battlesense: Blindsight is pretty good. I'd restrict this to around 6th level.
Well, it's restricted because if you try to use any metamagic, psionic, metapsionic, item creation or psionic item creation feats, you lose the feat and the rest of your class features with it. Being about six times as a fighter at doing the fighter's thing really doesn't concern me.Quote:
Bonus Feats: Any three feats. This is a lot of feats, and isn't limited to a list. Probably a bit much.
Anyone who's only making one attack per level at 6th and is only capable of making attacks that roll to hit is doing it wrong.Quote:
Counterattack: This needs more than a once per round limit on it to prevent it from completely shutting down certain attack forms and strategies.
You can "Move Suddenly" and "Counter an Attack" as the same immediate action. Hint hint.Quote:
Defender: Wow this needs so much more detail and wording. How far can you move? What if the attacker is adjacent to their target (that is, normal melee conditions?) If you intend for this to just combine and modify its prerequisite tricks, you need to really spell it out.
If you can't interpose yourself between the attacker and the target, you can't use the Defender ability.
I should probably restrict the types of intimidate checks on which it works, yeah.Quote:
Dominating Shout: No. Just, yikes no. Boosting skills is easy, and the wording just begs for someone to find a flat DC use of intimidate so they auto succeed on dominating mind-affecting immune enemies for days at a time. Or you could just get swift or move action dominate and spam this, which is also terrifying. Not only should this not be accessible at such a low level, but it needs revamping to prevent abuse.
Given that a Veteran is supposed to be able to hand a ToB character his own butt, without using magic items to make your full attack deal about twice as much damage anyway, that seems fine. Honestly, FoB almost allows you to reel off your full attack twice anyway.Quote:
Full Attacker: The standard action thing? That's fine. Its basically just better pounce. Double full attack though, that's too much. Tome of Battle does the double full attack thing too, and people like it... and its once per encounter, and accessible at 17th level. Consider a Flurry of Blows equivalent instead.
Meh? I mean, it really, really hurts spellcasters and pseudo-casters, but so does Combat Coup, which works on everyone. Plus, Headslams are harder to hit with than regular attacks, and require the same full action that you might have used to reel off two full attacks.Quote:
Headslam: The massive impact this trick has is ridiculous. It needs to be toned down in basically every aspect.
The fact that you use "Hit" as a noun means you obviously know what I mean by one. Also, "A hit" is proper terminology...Quote:
Heroic Killing Blow: This is unclear, and probably overpowered. 'Hit' is not proper language. Be clear what the benefit is. Is every attack an automatic hit? Is every hit an automatic critical? Is it just that you provoke a save vs. death on each attack, which is what I think you're going for?
"A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit."
"If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit."
When you do hit, it's resolved exactly as though it were a coup de grace, except that it's not necessarily a critical hit. This is exactly what is written in the text.
Yes, the Veteran can do many things better than casters, including getting the Personal Mind Blank power incarnated on them earlier. Telepathies include Microcosm, a power to which I would gladly be immune. If transparency rules are not in effect, you might not be immune to them just because you're immune to enchantments. It's not a word, no, but I don't care. It means what I want it to mean, and nothing more.Quote:
Iron Mind: This is just better Mind Blank. Mind Blank comes online at about level 13 at the earliest (15 normally) and I recommend a comparable prerequisite level. Also, "telepathies" is both not a word, and also a strange immunity to give. How can you even be immune to telepathy, and why would you want to be?
They also have to follow your code of conduct without getting to be a veteran.Quote:
Loyal Companion: Come on, at least make the character act like a normal cohort. Making them equal to your level is nuts.
Wrong.Quote:
Mortal Wound: Vague wording is always a bad idea. Define exactly what you want it to bypass and do, else you end up with an ability that turns off the sun. (Making me miss due to high AC reduces my damage, right? :smallamused:)
Specifically, if you hit then you deal full damage.Quote:
Special: There's nothing to stop you missing due to cover, concealment, or simply failing to beat your foe's AC.
Perfection does exist, it's just not in core.Quote:
Paragon: Perfection bonus is not an existing thing. Which is not bad, necessarily, except you go on to say it can stack with itself, so there's no reason to give it a named bonus type. Just remove it.
If you know where your opponent is, you can shoot them at no penalty. If not, you can't.Quote:
Perfect Aim: I suggest clearing up exactly how this interacts with total concealment/invisibility.
If you can see invisible creatures, then yelling their location to someone (or going "See that shimmer? Yeah, that's a wizard who thinks he's invisible") doesn't seem odd. Snapping someone out of microcosm is still useful.Quote:
Snap Out Of It!: First, this should probably involve a check rather than being automatic. Second, breaking any illusion by yelling lets you do stuff like say, remove someone's invisibility or displacement. Third, telepathies still isn't a word and also isn't something you'd need to snap out of in the first place.
Anything that doesn't involve moving and provokes an attack of opportunity, you can. You can't snap shoot someone charging you, because that wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity if they didn't move. You can't snap shoot someone getting up from prone. You can't snap shoot someone walking, running, or anything else that only provokes due to involving movement.Quote:
Snap Shooter: This is terrifying. I suggest making a very specific list of what can and cannot provoke an AoO, else you will end up with shenanigans.
Even Disciples of the Word can do this twenty-odd times per day. And Disciples of the Word suck.Quote:
Sudden Movement: The immediate action movement needs a limitation for the same reason as Counterattack.
Maybe you're just that scary. Again, this guy's meant to be able to stand up to the might of the guys who can eventually use Blinding Glory to blind entire armies. With no save. You're welcome.Quote:
Terrifying Presence: If the penalty is that broad, scaling, and applied in so large an area, it needs to allow a save or something.
Let's grab the Epic Feats list and go through.Quote:
Unbound Feat: This will only end badly. I can't immediately think of something horrible, but I'm sure there will be something to make it a thing of great regret.
Spoiler: Wall of TextCan't use, bad, neat but not gamebreaking, useless, useless, useless, useless, not great, useless, useless, useless, useless, Strictly Worse Than snap shooter, four uselesses, bad, useless, useless, SWT Killing Blow, okayish if you have good REF, ditto, useless, SWT Full Attacker, decent, useless, useless, all right, useless, almost SWT counterattack but nice to have both, bad, useless, okay, useless, it's epic leadership what did you expect, awful, useless, okay, not bad, fairly neat, almost always SWT sudden movement but funny to have both, three uselesses, would have been neat if I could take it at first level, neat, bad, bad, okay, nice if you've going unarmed, probably not going to see play, useless, decent, three uselesses, six SWT paragons with a useless in the middle, nine uselesses, SWT great reach, eight uselesses, doesn't actually work properly, useless, useless, all right if you're going that route, useless, SWT Magic Resistance, useless, SWT full attacker, useless, neat if you're going unarmed, useless, doesn't actually do anything different from the normal version, useless, cool, useless, meh, it's legendary commander what did you expect, bad, barely ever going to be useful, useless if you can't hit a DC 60 survival, decent, really good if you're using sneak attacks, decent, useless times nine, bad, SWT mortal wounds, not bad, useless, you get this from Master at Arms, three more useless ones, isn't that a monk class feature?, six more that I can't use, neat, can't use any of the next three, awful, SWT wallcrash, nice, SWT you have no power over me, three I can't use, one decent, two that are useless, decent, SWT always strikes first, decent, useless, useless, useless, this is an exact copy of another feat, neat if you're TWFing, SWT perfect aim, and the rest are useless.
Not seeing it.
What, abilities that actually let mundanes hit spellcasters? The horror!Quote:
You have no power over me: No. Not only is this too broad, but this kind of ability should not exist.
Overall, these criticisms seem to come from underestimating what the veteran's meant to be able to do. Though I'm surprised that you didn't get angry that a second-level veteran with a scythe using combat coup and always strike first can get the jump on an epic fighter and decapitate him without too much of a hassle. Yes, it really is meant to be that good.
What I'm criticizing is areas where the Veteran substantially surpasses what is considered good or powerful for tier 1 classes. Gaining broad immunities considered top notch and imperative ten levels early, having the ability to dominate people through immunities for day long lengths via skill check at level 1, or infinite interrupts on the level of abrupt jaunt and wings of cover. These aren't tier 1. These are insane, and makes their equivalent spells look like crap, because they are MORE powerful, and accessible at the earliest levels compared to level ten and beyond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
"This good" isn't Tier 1. It is dysfunctional, and shouldn't be allowed in any sane game.
At the same time, Fly makes Craft Masterwork Flying Machine look horrendously bad. Irresistible Phantasmal Killer makes all of your heroic killing blow claptrap look like pigeon crap. Summon Monster N can totally take on your loyal companion, and the wizard can have more than one up at once. Rope Trick is a second level spell that you simply cannot emulate; the closest you can do is to convince your DM to let you planeswalk into a pocket dimension. You simply do not possess an analog to pretty much any divination spells beyond Identify, pretty much any illusion or necromancy, or to Summon Monster N, Dispel Magic, Wind Wall, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door (try using Find Rift in combat), Black Tentacles, Wall of X, Polymorph/PAO, Telekinesis, Antimagic Field, Contingency, Control Water, Move Earth, Sequester, Spell Turning, Insanity, Prismatic Spray, Control Weather, Limited Wish, Prismatic Wall, Irresistible Dance, Gate, Time Stop or Wish. And that's okay, because those are things which the wizard does, and will always do, way, way better than the Veteran. And the Veteran does a few things way, way, way better in return. And that's also okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberVael
But let's go through. Battlesense, truenamers can do better, albeit later. But, truenamers. Next.
Bonus feats. Yeah, even getting three a level, and then more at higher levels, isn't really that great. I'd rather take the fewer feats and be able to use magic with them.
Counterattack can and will be shut down by any spell which doesn't need an attack roll.
Dominating Shout is like Quest, only you have to roll for it. Quest just happens. No save. No modified level check. Nowt, nothing, nada.
Full attacker allows you to be utterly ineffective twice in the same round, unless you git gud in some other manner. Psionic Lion's Charge is the obvious way to emulate it for your PsyWar ubercharger.
Headslam uses a full action that you could have spent not making your opponents lose some, but not all, of their spell slots/PP. It barely affects Truenamers at all (That's deliberate, though). I'm at a loss for a situation where Headslamming is the best use of your action. Maybe if your opponent is really low on spells. The trouble is that it only does anything important if your opponent actually survives the combat, or the combat drags out ages, or you're lucky enough to knock out a prepared caster's best spells purely by accident. Mhm. Yeah.
HKB is a way of making your killy guy even more killy, by actually letting him goddamn kill things, already!
Iron Mind is, yes, a better Personal Mind Blank. Stop having nice things, mundanes!
Loyal Companion is probably actually worse than the animal companion. Maybe give him some neat skills you don't have. Ehh.
Snap Shooter isn't that scary. If you can't cast defensively, what are you doing with your life?
Sudden Movement is a Disciple of the Word class feature. Disciple of the Word.
Terrifying Presence is not going to prevent your average tooled-up fighter from hitting you.
Unbound Feat is actually probably one of the worst things you can do with your trick.
You Have No Power Over Me is a way of making your killy gal even more killy, by actually letting her kill things, already!
Cleric has abilities that look out of place on Veteran has abilities that look out of place on Wizard has abilities that look out of place on Druid has abilities that look out of place on Psion has abilities that look out of place on Cleric. Not seeing the issue.
I am playing this class in a game. It is "stronk." My über crit shotgun to the XXXXXL ghouls face stopped the tpk because 3 of my party ran right on up to the thing with reach and then it crit them all, out right killing 2, and droping the high con one to like -12, so when I finished moping the floor with said boss, I swap out mortal Wounds for healing hands and fwabam, save the party because the cleric took a crit to the face and died.
Edit my character came to a world super infused with magic and he is from 2015 earth and said nope nope nope go away magic that's why he is a veteran.
Mmmm. I like this class. I really like it.But the way I see it, this class could end up being a bit too powerful at low levels.It's damn powerful, but I think it evens out since a) it's designed to be tier 1 anyway and b) the tricks and such have to be picking up the slack of all the magic items you're not using as well as the slack of all the magic buffing, healing and assistance you're not receiving from party casters.But at lower levels, when you've got less magic pieces of equipment, the veteran could be a little too strong. Maybe tacking on some level pre-requisques on the some of the more powerful tricks might be a good idea? Andin a low-magic campaign, it'd be downright broken. But why would anyone play this in a low-magic campaign when its entire purpose is to be a giant middle finger to a high magic setting?
EDIT: Actually no, scratch that, I think it's alright.
Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 5th level gains Fast Healing equal to (1/2 level) -2.
or
Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 6th level gains Fast Healing 1, which increases by 1 for every 2 additional levels.
--
Otherwise looks like a class that should be designed around http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/...lade-maneuvers , like the tome of battle crusader kind of.
Hanuman, the Veteran already gets fast healing at lvl 6 via overcome wounds.
And martial manuvers make you loose all of your class features unless that has been removed since last time I read it.
o.oQuote:
Originally Posted by nikkoli
Yes it was a suggestion to replace overcome wounds by removing the table and calling the class ability the effect that it is.
And no, that's kind of like saying that when you gain access to spells you lose all your class features. Maneuvers are like (Ex) spells for melee fighters separated by spell schools (disciplines).
Martial maneuvers make you lose your class features.Quote:
However, the veteran's guile and wit, their devotion and their motivation, all stem from the meaningfulness of the vow: the veteran cannot deliberately and knowingly use magic, psionics, martial strikes or stances, supernatural abilities, or magic or psionic items. They cannot accept direct magical or psionic aid to their person (Fireballing their foes doesn't count), and must take any save against that aid that is given to them. They are encouraged to shun those who repeatedly give them unwanted aid of this nature, and preferably all magic, but this is not actually required and veterans don't bear any particular enmity towards spellcasters, psionicists or initiators.
A veteran who breaks this vow feels mentally shattered by the transgression, and loses the conviction that fuels veteran abilities (other than class skills, proficiency, and hit dice). These other abilities are regained at a rate of one level per day by adventuring normally as a glorified warrior ("Normally" is subjective, but no attempt should be made to avoid combat beyond the usual measure). For example, an eighth-level veteran who breaks the vow can use a single veteran trick after one day of adventuring, and seven after six days of adventuring. These days don't need to be consecutive. New veteran tricks can be selected in this way, though it would have been faster to relearn them normally!
There are at least two monsters in existence which have the Spells feature but it's not called that. The monk has the Spell Resistance ability but it's called Diamond Soul. The ranger has Bonus Feats called Combat Styles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanuman
No! Take your re-fluffed Magus/Duskblade casting with slightly funny recovery mechanics away from me!Quote:
Otherwise looks like a class that should be designed around http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/...lade-maneuvers , like the tome of battle crusader kind of.
Quote:
"You who came here seeking glory and fame,
Who wish to fly through the air on wings of fire,
You who seek to hold your blade up high,
And catch the sun in its morning glow,
Leave this place and ne'er return,
'Til you set aside that hope,
For there is glory in might and magic,
And there is none in the warrior's path,
He is not a warrior who knows not pain,
Who sets the sky ablaze with moment's thought,
Or touches the foe with his blade,
Just to destroy them with his might,
Was your sword broken a thousand times?
Or did you bury it in a man's skull?
Did you feel each living thing die?
Or did you wonder if you were next?
No, your sword sits with you yet,
And you but touch your foes,
Use that blade to extend the grasp,
Of the magic you claim is skill.
There is no glory in war,
Know that, and pass these gates,
And though many of you will die,
You will die the best you can."
- Inscription above the Hall of Heroes.
Where does it say that and by what balance logic would that make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkoli
True, but is the table just to make the class look less dead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
You should try playing tome of battle/path of war characters and see how fun a nonmagical tier3 frontliner can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
I literally quoted the section that says martial manuvers are unusable if you want to be this class.
Righteous Desperation class feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanuman
"the veteran cannot deliberately and knowingly use magic, psionics, martial strikes or stances, supernatural abilities, or magic or psionic items"
"A veteran who breaks this vow feels mentally shattered by the transgression, and loses the conviction that fuels veteran abilities (other than class skills, proficiency, and hit dice). These other abilities are regained at a rate of one level per day by adventuring normally as a glorified warrior ("Normally" is subjective, but no attempt should be made to avoid combat beyond the usual measure)."
Not... really?Quote:
True, but is the table just to make the class look less dead?
I have. It felt exactly like playing a magus, duskblade, or even some flavours of battle cleric.Quote:
You should try playing tome of battle/path of war characters and see how fun a nonmagical tier3 frontliner can be.
Oh I see, the class itself functions like "Vow Against Mechanics".
See, when I think "veteran" I think someone who's been through war and has had to abandon all those notions of what's effective and what works when she went into it, using everything around her to her advantage, improvising and making use of things on the fly.
I also think of someone who's slightly crazy, probably debuffs with shaken, has some precision damage mechanic or deadly strike from stalker.
I mean the fluff could be that all mechanics sources proved too unreliable and could be used against her, which would fit into the paranoia kind of field (afraid to use mechanics, not just swears them off).
What you're going for is essentially kind of like a crusader but instead of maneuvers you're going with rogue tricks? So is this a tier4 class?
Sure. A tier 4 class that can use a skill based Dominate Monster at level 3, has a class feature that gives them an equal level wizard companion, can immediately and automatically counter two full schools of spells as a swift action, gets at will abrupt jaunt, and an extra set of actions each round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanuman
The fluff is less "I dislike these mechanics, so I therefore vow never to use them! Nyah!" and more "I did it the hard way, and I'm happy to keep doing it the hard way."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanuman
And no, the class isn't supposed to be tier 4. Combat Coup on its own immediately propels you into tier 4. Herbalist, master at arms, and dominating shout are the kind of things getting you into tier 3. Craft MW flying machine, find planar rift, brewmaster, loyal companion, not on my watch, and so forth are the kind of things making you tier 2, and the reselection mechanic makes you tier 1. The Mundane Trickster - the Veteran's roguish little sister - is being heralded by at least one of its critics as borderline tier zero.
Why would you give them a wizard? Loyal companions gain the righteous desperation class feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberVael
Oh no, my wizard companion will lose all their veteran class abilities that they don't get! What a shame. :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
Arguably, you also lose all your mundane trickster abilities that you don't get.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberVael
Oh, okay, so you would take a wizard Loyal Companion because of RAW abuse. Fine, ficks'd.
I like the concept, but even for a tier 1, it's too powerful. It basically shuts down every other class. It's not equal to a tier 1 caster, it surpasses it.
Abilities which work likeshouldn't exist.Quote:
There's no attack roll and no save. You just deal damage.
Perhaps you would take that up with spells like Magic Missile, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire and Acid Fog? Or maybe you would turn your attention to all six Reversed Word of Nurturing utterances, Reversed Energy Negation, Reversed Greater Energy Negation, Reversed Essence of Lifespark (but deals negative level), Reversed Word of Bolstering (But ability damage) or Energy Vortex? These aren't trivial abilities, either: it's easy for a truenamer to shove metamagic on all their stuff without it costing anything, so you can have a reversed energy negation dealing about 40d6*1.5 damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zireael
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/.../71/Cotton.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
Stubbornness incarnate.
Does Armour Master remove the MAX DEX on armor, since it says you take no penalties for wearing armor?
Correct. Anything untoward that could possibly happen as a result of wearing mundane armour (unless it has spikes or contact poison inside it, or something silly) is ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkoli
Martial artist grants you the effects of improved unarmed strikes and flurry, along with the scaling AC and unarmed strike damage of a mnk right? So you could then pick up superior unarmed strike and get an even better punching ability?
Yes, you deal damage as though you were a monk, so if you take SUAS, you deal damage as a monk with SUAS.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkoli
Since this is meant to cover up the fighter like the others are meant to cover barbarian, monk, rogue, and the like should the veteran's veteran level count as effective fighter levels for prerequsits? Seeing how the other classes all get their parents class features ontop of theor tricks.
Yes, that's a good idea, though I'd point out that the veteran has ways of getting most of the ones worth getting anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkoli
I feel like this swings too hard in the other direction. Sure, clerics and wizards can do anything...at level 15 or so. At level two, they get aced by big dumb fighters or large rocks or housecats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormengand
The only thing you need to do is level gate the veteran tricks a little more appropriately. I should not be able to force save or die effects on every strike by level 3... that alone takes vets from tier 1 to tier -5.
On another note, how would this interact with something like Vow of Poverty from the BoED? Would it negate the veteran's vow? If it didn't, you'd have an absolute monster on your hands...