MOG Mechanics: Initiative (Balanced Breakfast = Surprise Rounds)

One particular concern I've had with DnD is the concept that danger and combat only exist while initiative is relevant. When initiative isn't tracked, there are no enemies, and your actions don't really matter. Time is but an illusion, and all that garbage.

So I set out to create an initiative system that allowed tension and danger to extended past when it was relevant, and came up with this:

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The Rules:

• Initiative is rolled at the end of rests.
• Initiative can be modified by various actions throughout the day, including events that took place during the rest that caused the initiative roll
• If initiative needs to become relevant (such as a sudden action taking place), then the current initiative order is immediately referred to rather than rolled.
  
  • The original event attempts to take place, but with every other creature with a higher initiative taking action first, starting with the next highest initiative creature.
• If a particular event is drastic enough to cause a change to a character's initiative (whether it been an emotional or physical change), the DM can request that the player rolls a new initiative against their current initiative, keeping the higher of the two if the event was positive, or keeping the lower of the two if the event was negative.

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For example:

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The party just ended their Long Rest in an inn. They slept well that night, so everyone gets a +3 to their initiative. Their totals are:
Rex, the Rogue, with a 17.
Bruce, the Barbarian, with an 8.
Bruce spent the night drunk, so while he gets Inspiration (which he COULD use now), he gets disadvantage on his initiative and rolls a total of 10, keeping his 8.
Dani, the Druid, with a 14.

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The party comes across a caravan that's being guarded by goblins. Bruce decides he's going to run at the caravan and attempt to start breaking stuff, however Dani and Rex have higher initiatives, and can immediately react to Bruce's attempts. First, Dani states what she's going to do, and she decides to try to calm Bruce down. Then Rex can respond to Bruce's and Dani's attempts, and chooses to scout out the caravan. Finally, these things resolve all at the same time. Even through Bruce made his action out of the initiative order, Dani and Rex both had opportunities to respond to his actions before he attempted them. If the Initiative continues to be relevant (like with combat), then you go down the list as normal. You only ever need to follow this unique order of operations if someone attempts to act out of turn. With the initiative system being less restrictive and being able to wax and wane, the players can feel tension in-and-out of combat.

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Another example:

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The same three players, with the same initiatives, just finished off the last of the caravan guards, with no noticeable enemies nearby. Dani is patching up Rex while keeping an eye out for danger, while Rex got caught out and took some major hits and is taking some down time. As a result, his initiative took a hit as well (down to 12), and he's taking a moment to heal. Bruce is inspecting several of the bodies for loot. Bruce takes a peak inside of the caravan, and finds a Hobgoblin who strikes! Rex and Dani have a higher initiative than the Hobgoblin, but Dani wasn't surprised due to her being aware of her surroundings, and launch an attack first, killing the Hobgoblin before his attack lands

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Any character/event/trap/whatever can contest the initial actions of a character to attempt to disrupt them when it's outside of the initiative order (such as Dani interrupting Bruce in the first scene). In fact, a character disrupting one action can be disrupted by another (such as if Rex decided to stop Dani from stopping Bruce). When actions are "paused" like this, treat them as if they're being held like a Readied action.

For low-initiative characters, there may appear to be a problem of always going last, which is why there are a lot of different options to modify someone's initiative. Whether that be from eating a decent meal, to using a well-made map you purchased, or by casting a spell that kept out the weather from your camp site, there's a lot of options you can provide.

Personally, I provide Inspiration for events that hurt you/the team but are in-character for you to do, such as a Barbarian getting drunk. While that hurt Bruce's initiative until his next Short Rest, he did get Inspiration which might save the team at an integral moment in the day. For Initiative changes, I utilize the little things a character may do throughout the day that generally are beneficial, or something that might affect their mood (like failing to show off in a bar).

Together, this makes Initiative an interesting mechanic that represents more than just the timing of the battle, but also as a representation of a character's mood and reaction time.



[Edit] After consideration, this mechanic was updated to not have initiative changes outside of the Short Rest. Strikethrough formatting shows what parts were omitted, with italics showing what was added.

[Edit] After reconsideration, this mechanic was updated to have initiative changes outside of the Short Rest, in the form of initiative rerolls. The added information is in italics. Hopefully, I'm done considering new stuff, because there's only so many formatting options.

This is an easy thing to make too finicky and tedious, but for a resource management game it's potentially a really cool idea. It also adds some incentive to operate quickly if you set up the rewards correctly, where things like meticulously searching every square inch of things has an initiative penalty attached.

On a seemingly conflicting note, you might also want an equilibrium mechanic of some sort, where if your initiative is already high it's easier to lower and harder to raise. The easiest way to do this is probably to just give actions a number, where if your initiative is below it it goes up and above it it goes down.

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Originally Posted by Knaight

This is an easy thing to make too finicky and tedious, but for a resource management game it's potentially a really cool idea. It also adds some incentive to operate quickly if you set up the rewards correctly, where things like meticulously searching every square inch of things has an initiative penalty attached.

On a seemingly conflicting note, you might also want an equilibrium mechanic of some sort, where if your initiative is already high it's easier to lower and harder to raise. The easiest way to do this is probably to just give actions a number, where if your initiative is below it it goes up and above it it goes down.

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I like the first point. But on the second one, I don't want to add too many complications into it. Making the Initiative move up and down when it's not super relevant is easy, since it's just a number, but moving it in combat really causes things to get weird and uncomfortable.

One of my long-lasting goals is to make players more conscious about their actions, but I want to avoid making it a chore, you know?

A fix to the whole "out of initiative order" thing is just to have it so that when someone attempts to do something out of order (and someone wants to contest it), then the person with the highest initiative order makes their action first, rather than a sort of "stack" that resolves in reverse order.

I do like what you said about it, though. Thank you for taking the time to try and understand my ramblings.

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Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game

I like the first point. But on the second one, I don't want to add too many complications into it. Making the Initiative move up and down when it's not super relevant is easy, since it's just a number, but moving it in combat really causes things to get weird and uncomfortable.

One of my long-lasting goals is to make players more conscious about their actions, but I want to avoid making it a chore, you know?

A fix to the whole "out of initiative order" thing is just to have it so that when someone attempts to do something out of order (and someone wants to contest it), then the person with the highest initiative order makes their action first, rather than a sort of "stack" that resolves in reverse order.

I do like what you said about it, though. Thank you for taking the time to try and understand my ramblings.

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I'm definitely not saying to change it in combat, just to prevent it from ending up at something like 65 or -40 because of how it's constructed. Always moving towards numbers keeps it in a particular range.

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Originally Posted by Knaight

I'm definitely not saying to change it in combat, just to prevent it from ending up at something like 65 or -40 because of how it's constructed. Always moving towards numbers keeps it in a particular range.

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Ah, gotcha. The average initiative roll is around 12, so that's a pretty solid benchmark. Usually, the more rewards characters get, the more I'll also tack on penalties (so that the initiative of the whole team says just slightly above average), but you make an excellent suggestion.

Hmm. I like the principle of this, but adjucating how much a bonus or penalty is worth seems difficult without a guide. Partly because this seems like an interesting core mechanic, and I need to give it more thought than, say, weapon rules.

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Originally Posted by Lord Von Becker

Hmm. I like the principle of this, but adjucating how much a bonus or penalty is worth seems difficult without a guide. Partly because this seems like an interesting core mechanic, and I need to give it more thought than, say, weapon rules.

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That's a fair point. I'd say that +/-3 should probably be the standard, something like this:

Cause
+5	stroke of good luck, recently succeeded on something impressive, spent time doing something rare that makes them happy (spending time at home)
+4	Very comfortable resting conditions (inside of a home for the adventurers) , spent time doing leisurely things
+3	Not sure yet
+2	Moderate resting conditions (inside of an inn), receives important knowledge about an objective (such as a map), well fed
+1	Minor successes, prevented a bad situation (resting outside, but inside of Tiny Hut)
-1	frustrated, startled
-2	Slept uncomfortably, Hungry
-3	Lost, recently Frightened, depressed
-4	Harsh sleeping conditions, caused a major problem to the group, majorly hungover
-5	Exhaustion, recently revived from Dying condition, cursed

To limit how effective the system is, I'd just cap the difference at +/-5. So if your initiative roll was 17, it can be modified to be between 12 and 22.

See, capping it that way makes sense on one level, but on the other it only matters every time you roll - so the max-DEX Barbarian who rolled a 5 and a 9 that morning will never go before the guy who dumped DEX but got a natural 20.
Beyond that, I want this to plug into both characterization - the paranoid guy always thinks fast, if not necessarily well... - and into a caution-versus-speed tradeoff; go slowly to avoid traps and ambushes, or go quickly to get the drop on enemies?
To that end, I think I'd get rid of the d20 roll entirely. Default pace is +10, accelerated pace is +15, cautious is +5.
Then when you get into a fight, an 'eyeball it' modifier of +5 to -5 is applied based on how ready you for that fight. Once a Barbarian hits 7^th level, their default for this modifier is 5 higher, but their maximum isn't increased.
DEX mod is factored in as normal.

Perception uses a very similar thing. You can roll it as a skill, generally for eavesdropping or a hurried search, but your Passive Perception is your total Perception modifier, +10 for a default pace, +5 for a hurried one, or +15 for a cautious one. Then add a +5 to -5 modifier based on how cluttered and obscured the area is, and state that Favored Terrain lets you treat your favored environments as always giving +5.

Sound good?

Rolling initiative at the end of a rest and keeping it isn't a bad idea-- getting rid of the hard stop where everyone rolls initiative is nice, and 5e's Short Rest/Long Rest system means that you shouldn't be stuck in the same place for very long. Having an impartial way to adjudicate the order of noncombat options, like your description with the caravan, is excellent and intuitive. I don't know how much it'll actually smooth out the combat/noncombat transition-- "surprise round, you three get shot at, now everyone roll initiative" is pretty common in my experience, but it certainly can't hurt.

On the other hand, I don't think that small, numerous modifiers to initiative is a good idea. Particularly with the sort of modifiers you're talking about; those seem much more in line with a revised Exhaustion mechanic. It's a level of granularity that really doesn't mesh well with 5e-- to be honest, I don't think it really meshes well with anything. Switching initiative in combat is annoying, but at least everyone's in the rhythm at that point. Out of combat, it's way too easy to lose track of and get mixed up. I also don't see how that sort of fiddliness plays into your goals of increasing tension. The last thing you want is for a situation where initiative matters to pop up and everyone stops to calculate their modifiers and argue for bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Rolling initiative at the end of a rest and keeping it isn't a bad idea-- getting rid of the hard stop where everyone rolls initiative is nice, and 5e's Short Rest/Long Rest system means that you shouldn't be stuck in the same place for very long. Having an impartial way to adjudicate the order of noncombat options, like your description with the caravan, is excellent and intuitive. I don't know how much it'll actually smooth out the combat/noncombat transition-- "surprise round, you three get shot at, now everyone roll initiative" is pretty common in my experience, but it certainly can't hurt.

On the other hand, I don't think that small, numerous modifiers to initiative is a good idea. Particularly with the sort of modifiers you're talking about; those seem much more in line with a revised Exhaustion mechanic. It's a level of granularity that really doesn't mesh well with 5e-- to be honest, I don't think it really meshes well with anything. Switching initiative in combat is annoying, but at least everyone's in the rhythm at that point. Out of combat, it's way too easy to lose track of and get mixed up. I also don't see how that sort of fiddliness plays into your goals of increasing tension. The last thing you want is for a situation where initiative matters to pop up and everyone stops to calculate their modifiers and argue for bonuses.

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You make an excellent point on the second bullet. Making it adjustable was more of a means to add value to player's actions, but I think a more fluid solution is just applying only the variables that took place during the Rest, and maintaining that initiative value until the following Rest.

So it seems like my idea is solidly different from yours, then. That simplifies credit, at least. Cheerio.

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Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game

I think a more fluid solution is just applying only the variables that took place during the Rest, and maintaining that initiative value until the following Rest.

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To me, the system loses a fair bit of its attraction and flavor when you reduce initiative to a purely rest-based mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of "held" initiative rolls (with modifiers and small periodic rerolls). But if things like mapping at a campsite, casting a spell; being well-fed; scouting etc. can influence initiative, it's more than odd to award no initiative when players take active/proactive actions in the immediate vicinity of the battle.

Not only would my players probably whine about it; I do think that it seems a kinda arbitrary restriction on benefits (e.g., scouting now vs. scouting later) that weakens player agency, even if it is mechanically sound and can be explained as "general level of readiness".

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Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game

If initiative needs to become relevant (such as a sudden action taking place) ... the original event attempts to take place, but with every other creature with a higher initiative taking action first, starting with the next highest initiative creature.

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This is how we've always done it at my table. It's a cool approach, which becomes especially relevant when your PCs have conflicting goals for a scene. This method doesn't require a static/"held" initiative, however. I regularly use spontaneous initiative checks to determine PC order, even in mundane, non-combat actions (..."I want to talk to him first!" "No, me!").

If PC#1 wants to perform action X, and PC#2 wants to stop him, I'll let them roll out the sequencing, provided PC#2 has some idea of what PC#1 wants to do. In rare cases, PC#2 might make a Perception check to discern PC#1's motives, with the result determining whether he is surprised on the first "round" of pseudo-combat.

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Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

On the other hand, I don't think that small, numerous modifiers to initiative is a good idea.

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Reading that surprised me, as that's actually the part of the system I am most attracted to. You're probably right, though Lots of small modifiers would tend to bog down gameplay, and it would place a lot of emphasis on rest activity. But I really like those tiny, cumulative modifiers. Without them, what you've got boils down into:

1: Hold initiative rolls from short rests;
2: Allow for retroactive decision-making based on initiative.

2 is good, but it doesn't require 1. Holding initiative rolls might make the game quicker, but you run into the problem Lord Von Becker pointed out, where a single roll can let a high-initiative character be "out-initiatived" for an entire length of time. It's much neater to just do normal initiative rolls: this still allows for slow characters to "out-initiative" characters with high initiative, but those characters are able to shine through as even if they get some crappy rolls.

If the static initiative value cannot be realistically modified, then all you've done is a pre-roll, and if your players were the ones to roll in, then they're going to know whether they're entering their next combat with an initiative edge or a deficit.

After thinking about it a while, I'm of the opinion that your system works really well as a sort of group initiative. Granularity is a strength of the system, and you can use granular group-initative benefits as rewards for actions (scouting, casting a spell, mapping) that improve the group's overall readiness and situational awareness, or penalties for actions (going hungry/exhausted; making loud noises; leaving obvious tracks) that decrease it.

Think of it as something like a "skills challenge", with different ways to affect the group initiative value, which is initially determined by some function of the PC's own initiative (average? lowest? highest?). Across travel/chase sequences, the group initiative could be static and continuous, with the benefits or penalties accumulated from previous days carrying over. In an urban setting, the group initiative might be dynamic, varying wildly depending on where/who they're visiting, the group's intelligence, etc.

Actually, it reminds me of the rules used in some of the naval combat splatbooks. I think there are problems with using for character initiative, but I'm definitely gonna adapt something like this for when my PCs are doing long-distance chases/tracking scenes. Can even be simplified by giving the enemies an initiative "DC"., which results in ambushes (=surprise rounds) f the PCs fail to meet it.

Compromise then?

Rather than having multiple small modifiers, using a single initiative reroll that's treated as having something advantage/disadvantage, using your original initiative as one of the rolls.

For example, the Rogue smooth talks a barmaid into giving him a peck on the cheek after helping him out with some information. This gives him a "positive" boost to his initiative, so he just rolls his default initiative again. If it's higher than his original initiative roll, he keeps the new roll, otherwise it stays the same.

This way, Initiative is modified based off of the last thing that happened, has a natural slope as to how high/low it can go, and cuts down on micromanaged numbers. With how naturally swingy it can be (Initiative of 19, dropped to 7 after a recent negative reroll), you won't have high initiative characters always stealing the spotlight.

I think this would cover most of the concerns people have mentioned (too many rolls, "bean counting", high-low initiative becoming habit, initiative becoming stagnant, maintaining fluid Initiative out of Rests).