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Highest Possible Crit Range?
In an attempt to try and find the highest crit range I can get, I came up with this:
An Aptitude Rapier has 15-20 crit range
Street Fighter Barbarian 7 gives +1 to Threat Range on a charge or flat-footed target = 14-20
Disciple of Dispater 8, gives x3 to crit range, which ends up as 9-20 -1 for Barb7 = 8-20 Crit Range
Throw in Arcane Duelist adds in a false keen, = 6-20 -1 for Barb7 = 5-20
Add OA Weapon Master for -2 = 3-20 Crit Range
Throw the Psychic Weapon Master for -2 again = 1-20 Crit Range
Combined with Lightning Maces for Infinite Attacks.
Using beneficial stacking rules, is there a way to make this legal? Probably impossible pre-epic (I know, there are worse things in Epic than critical hits) , but if playing Gestalt, that might be possible pre-epic with Barbarian//PsychicWarrior.
Also, if this works, can you threaten a critical hit on a natural 1?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Crit range does not affect ability to hit.
So you do not threaten a crit on a natural one as a natural one always misses.
As for the rest of it, I have no idea.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
I'm afraid I cannot poke any holes in your logic, but only because I haven't actually investiaged whether or not those stack. As for the last question... There is a statement somewhere that says regardless of your threat range, you only automatically hit on a natural 20 (which can be changed with variant rules). IIRC, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, and thus... would miss.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
The spell Dolorous Blade doubles crit range, and causes crit threats to autoconfirm. Now, it doesn't stack with everything(keen being a listed exception), but if you have a decent crit range already, it does make crits vastly more likely.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drengnikrafe
I'm afraid I cannot poke any holes in your logic, but only because I haven't actually investiaged whether or not those stack. As for the last question... There is a statement somewhere that says regardless of your threat range, you only automatically hit on a natural 20 (which can be changed with variant rules). IIRC, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, and thus... would miss.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Sweet! I'm the worlds first Ninja Bear!
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
An immediate flaw I see, RAWwise you don't provoke a critical every time you roll in a critical threat. You have to roll a critical threat and hit in order for it to provoke. So say you roll a 3 and that is in your critical threat range but a 3 + attack does not hit. Then you just miss.
Edit: Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit that gets around this, so that even if your 20+attack does not hit the AC numbers wise you still hit. You'll probably miss on the confirm but still hit. Though you could roll two 20's in a row.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Not actually important to hit, as Lightning Maces triggers an extra attack everytime it threatens a critical so what I'm trying to do is cause an infinite amount of attacks which should include an infinite amount of natural 20s so that unless they have enough DR to overcome a possible max damage critical, they're dead.
Blood in the Water stance is also nice
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
You do have to hit to threaten, though, right?
Now, you can optimize to-hit, but 1s will always break the chain unless you use a method such as the rogue option(feat, I believe) to treat a roll of a 1 as a natural 20. Or use rerolls granted by skill tricks, etc.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Ahh, forgot that important part, but if you can't hit on a natural one, you can get rid of some of those barbarian levels and use Dextrious Attack from Arcane Duelist with a +5 Rapier for +10 to hit, or just punk them out with Wraithstrike as all the extra attacks are still in the same round.
Any way to get enough divine ranks to not fail on a natural one?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There's got to be an ability somewhere that lets you reroll 1's, that'd get this going.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericgrau
There's got to be an ability somewhere that lets you reroll 1's, that'd get this going.
The world's first, and only, use for luck feats. How nice. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Well, to be infinite I'd need that, but at the level where I can finish off the build, I'd have atleast 11 BAB, so at 3 attacks, with a 95% chance of threatening, that would have some insane amount of attacks. I need to find a way to add in the Two Weapon Fighting chain.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
After reading this thread I wonder what the biggest crit range is using only 3.5 raw only, no 3.0 stuff. Best i could do was 13-20.
which was psi-warrior/psychic weapon master.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Forgive my lack of knowledge but what the heck is an Aptitude Rapier?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Aptitude is a weapon enhancement from Tome of Battle that lets you use that weapon as the required weapon for other feats such as shadow blade or in this case, Lightning Maces to get near infinite attacks
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
That's the broken reading of Aptitude, mind. It's speculated that its real purpose is allowing using your Weapon Focus-line and such with another weapon type, but then people decided to combine it with Weapon Style-feats and do something busted. Like Lightning Maces which is balanced by the base weapon being 20/x2.
Also, just pump up To Hit and the Crit won't be a problem. As a Barbarian, that shouldn't be hard. Apply Wraithstrike as desired. Blood in the Water should quickly erase any miss chance.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lvl 1 sharnian
In an attempt to try and find the highest crit range I can get, I came up with this:
An Aptitude Rapier has 15-20 crit range
Actually, I'm pretty sure it has an 18-20 crit range.
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Street Fighter Barbarian 7 gives +1 to Threat Range on a charge or flat-footed target = 14-20
I don't know the Street Fighter variant, so I can't comment on this.
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Disciple of Dispater 8, gives x3 to crit range, which ends up as 9-20 -1 for Barb7 = 8-20 Crit Range
Alright so far, though I would point out that the Disciple of Dispater abilities only work with iron or steel weapons.
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Throw in Arcane Duelist adds in a false keen, = 6-20 -1 for Barb7 = 5-20
Again, I don't know the Arcane Duelist, so I can't comment. I've never seen it in similar crit-focused builds though - double check the wording to se if it stacks.
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Add OA Weapon Master for -2 = 3-20 Crit Range
Assuming the OA Weapon Master is the same as the Sword and Fist Weapon master, this is valid.
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Throw the Psychic Weapon Master for -2 again = 1-20 Crit Range
Psychic Weapon master only works with crystal weapons. Disciple of Dispater only works with iron or steel weapons. You can't get both. The largest crit range I've sen the CO boards come up with is 9-20, though I can't remember how. Incidentally, you forgot the simple Improved Critical.
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Combined with Lightning Maces for Infinite Attacks.
Using beneficial stacking rules, is there a way to make this legal? Probably impossible pre-epic (I know, there are worse things in Epic than critical hits) , but if playing Gestalt, that might be possible pre-epic with Barbarian//PsychicWarrior.
Also, if this works, can you threaten a critical hit on a natural 1?
I don't believe so.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Don't mean to throw a spanner in your plans here, and I don't have access to my books atm so this is purely based on my google-fu, but:
Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use two Light Maces for it to work?
Edited for spelling.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kudaku
Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use a Light Mace for it to work?
The trick here is the Aptitude weapon special ability from Tome of Battle, which lets you apply weapon feat benefits for some other type of weapon to that Aptitude weapon.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heliomance
Actually, I'm pretty sure it has an 18-20 crit range.
It's Keen/Imp. Crit.
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Originally Posted by
Heliomance
I don't know the Street Fighter variant, so I can't comment on this.
See here.
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Originally Posted by
Heliomance
Again, I don't know the Arcane Duelist, so I can't comment. I've never seen it in similar crit-focused builds though - double check the wording to se if it stacks.
See here.
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Originally Posted by
Heliomance
Psychic Weapon master only works with crystal weapons. Disciple of Dispater only works with iron or steel weapons. You can't get both. The largest crit range I've sen the CO boards come up with is 9-20, though I can't remember how. Incidentally, you forgot the simple Improved Critical.
Wouldn't Aptitude get past this? And Improved Crit was already included in the original weapon. Also, I recall 3-20 crit range on Char Ops.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Arcane Duelist's False Keen specifically does not stack with either Improved Critical or keen.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Curmudgeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudaku
Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use a Light Mace for it to work?
The trick here is the
Aptitude weapon special ability from
Tome of Battle, which lets you apply weapon feat benefits for some other type of weapon to that
Aptitude weapon.
Even using an Aptitiude weapon, would you not still have to be dual wielding? I'm not sure what the actual verbatim on the mod is...
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keshay
Even using an Aptitiude weapon, would you not still have to be dual wielding? I'm not sure what the actual verbatim on the mod is...
Yes, you would. You'd need two Aptitude weapons. They just don't have to be light maces.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
That puts a damper on things, right now without a way of getting past the crystal weapon and the Arcane Duelist, that's 6-20 on a charge or flat-footed.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
If you're using Aptitude weapons, Use Roundabout kick.
it's a feat in Complete Warrior that gives you a free unarmed strike each time you confirm a critical. But you have aptitude, so that's another Rapier attack...meaning any confirmed crits actually give you 2 extra attacks, and you can actually go truly infinite.
Of course you want the Lion totem Barbarian to get a full attack on the charge to make sure you go infinite.
I think with Improved critical, and DoD, you get to 3-20 anyway? or is it 9-20? Never sure how to stack that kind of multiplier...I think since it explicitly says you double it, then triple it, you get to 3-20. If I'm wrong, then 9-20 is still pretty good...but unless you're hitting on a 7, you won't go infinite.
If, however, you can use a spell like Dolorous Blow, or Critical Strike (and if it stacks, not sure), you could get it infinite quite easily. (all you need is the ability to hit and threaten a critical on an 8, one more point is all...but more is always good)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
If you're using Aptitude weapons, Use Roundabout kick.
it's a feat in Complete Warrior that gives you a free unarmed strike each time you confirm a critical. But you have aptitude, so that's another Rapier attack...meaning any confirmed crits actually give you 2 extra attacks, and you can actually go truly infinite.
NI!=Infinite
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Of course you want the Lion totem Barbarian to get a full attack on the charge to make sure you go infinite.
I think with Improved critical, and DoD, you get to 3-20 anyway? or is it 9-20? Never sure how to stack that kind of multiplier...I think since it explicitly says you double it, then triple it, you get to 3-20. If I'm wrong, then 9-20 is still pretty good...but unless you're hitting on a 7, you won't go infinite.
As above.
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If, however, you can use a spell like Dolorous Blow, or Critical Strike (and if it stacks, not sure), you could get it infinite quite easily. (all you need is the ability to hit and threaten a critical on an 8, one more point is all...but more is always good)
As above.
Once a large enough string of ones is hit, the attack routine stops. You need to be able to circumvent ones.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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Originally Posted by
Signmaker
NI!=Infinite
As above.
As above.
Once a large enough string of ones is hit, the attack routine stops. You need to be able to circumvent ones.
If I find a monster with sufficient damage reduction, I think I can make infinitely many attacks quite easily.
Well, not if you use roundabout kick. If every attack you make spawns 1.1 attacks on average, then even if some give you none, you'll usually end up with more than you had before, because it's actually more likely for you to get two attacks off any given attack than it is for you to miss. If I crit and confirm on 6 or higher, then there's only a 1/4 chance of missing, while there's a greater than half chance of confirming a crit, giving you two extra attacks. Yes, some attacks get nothing, but more attacks actually INCREASE the number of attacks you have to use.
I just had a bad bad bad idea. Isn't there an ability that lets you take 10 on an attack? If we can work that into the build, it IS infinite if you hit on a 10.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
Well, not if you use roundabout kick. If every attack you make spawns 1.1 attacks on average, then even if some give you none, you'll usually end up with more than you had before, because it's actually more likely for you to get two attacks off any given attack than it is for you to miss. If I crit and confirm on 6 or higher, then there's only a 1/4 chance of missing, while there's a greater than half chance of confirming a crit, giving you two extra attacks. Yes, some attacks get nothing, but more attacks actually INCREASE the number of attacks you have to use.
You're misapplying averages to predict long-term relationships. A positive attack increase does NOT guarantee an infinite string unless you can remove the miss chance from a natural one.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Psychic weapon master and disciple of dispater can't ever stack by the books- one requires a crystal weapon, and the other an iron/steel one.
You're also using multiple 3.0 sources where stacking of critical hit effects from different sources was allowed, and it is not the case in 3.5. So like DR 30/+1, it's effectively errata'd to not function the way it did. You can ignore it for theoretical optimization purposes, but I think this has been done before.
Also, if 3.0 stuff is allowed, I believe that bladed gauntlets exist which have a base crit range of 17-20. Double due to Improved Critical, add disciple of Dispater which stacks explicitly with imp. critical to make it x4, and use OA weapon master to add +2 for a RAW legal total of 3-20. I don't think you can stack anything with that, and it's very fragile considering the 3.0 stuff.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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Originally Posted by
Signmaker
You're misapplying averages to predict long-term relationships. A positive attack increase does NOT guarantee an infinite string unless you can remove the miss chance from a natural one.
No, it doesn't guarantee it, but you have an good chance of it happening. In the case I mentioned earlier (hit and crit on a 6), the chance of an infinite string of attacks is 5/9, off one attack. If you can get a second attack at the same stats (Haste comes to mind, among others), then you have a 65/81 chance of going infinite, and even if you don't go infinite, the likelihood is that you make a lot of attacks anyway.
I'm wondering how the splitting property works with this....Could we find a way to get a Great Crossbow to work? 18-20 still, but there's the whole reloading thing...fairly sure there's a way around that though...and the splitting would make every critical threat give you two more attacks. (Since I have no memory, do you roll two attacks, or just one?)
BLOOD IN THE WATER.
It stacks, it keeps building up as you crit, and you can charge it up with a bag of rats or something....(note that this build can do the same thing as the great cleave sweeping strike cheese, if you drop a bag of rats out where you can hit them)
If you get to crit on a 7(easy in this build), and hit on a 2 (crit lots of rats), then there's a 60/133 chance of going infinite. Nearly half, and achievable easily.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Will you please learn what the word infinite means?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) is a concept in mathematics and philosophy that refers to a quantity without bound or end.
The attacks have a chance of having no end.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zincorium
Psychic weapon master and disciple of dispater can't ever stack by the books- one requires a crystal weapon, and the other an iron/steel one.
Well... Iron crystals do exist in catgirl-killing land... I'd imagine such a weapon wouldn't last that long, though.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) is a concept in mathematics and philosophy that refers to a quantity without bound or end.
The attacks have a chance of having no end.
Put it this way:
For any given interval of attacks, there is a probability associated with it of the attack stream ending right then and there. Maybe you have it absurdedly low.
As the limit tends to an infinite number of attacks, the probability of a long enough stream of '1's tends to 1. Which means that it is, in fact, NOT an infinite amount of attacks. Just an arbitrarily high amount. Therein lies the difference between finite and infinite.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zincorium
Also, if 3.0 stuff is allowed, I believe that bladed gauntlets exist which have a base crit range of 17-20.
An Erratum changed this to 19-20.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Signmaker
Put it this way:
For any given interval of attacks, there is a probability associated with it of the attack stream ending right then and there. Maybe you have it absurdedly low.
As the limit tends to an infinite number of attacks, the probability of a long enough stream of '1's tends to 1. Which means that it is, in fact, NOT an infinite amount of attacks. Just an arbitrarily high amount. Therein lies the difference between finite and infinite.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 0 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 1 attack.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 2 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 5 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 34676456 attacks.
If you add all those chances together for every number that exists, you get a number which is LESS than 1, for the best builds. Meaning there is a positive chance for me to attack a number of times that is not any writeable number, and exceeds any number you care to name. What do you call that, except an infinite number of attacks?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 0 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 1 attack.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 2 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 5 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 34676456 attacks.
If you add all those chances together for every number that exists, you get a number which is LESS than 1, for the best builds. Meaning there is a positive chance for me to attack a number of times that is not any writeable number, and exceeds any number you care to name. What do you call that, except an infinite number of attacks?
Partially incorrect. For the natural numbers, the sum of the probabilities adds to one if there exists a chance of failure (fumbling), and zero if there does not exist a chance of failure (removing the ability to fumble, while recieving more attacks = an attack stream that doesn't stop).
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
A very high number, but still not infinite. If there's even the smallest chance that your attacks will stop at some point, then your attacks will stop at some point. Guaranteed.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Remember, for example, that 1/3 = .33333333333333333333333333333333333...,
2/3 = .66666666666666666666666666666666666666...,
and 3/3 = .99999999999999999999999999999999999999999..., which means that since 3/3 = 1, .99999999999999999999999999999999999999999... = 1. This is why if there is a chance of failure the probability of failure will reach 1 as the number of times reaches infinity - because math is confusing like that.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
all that work... then the Dm throws nothing but crit immune zombies.... this would not be funny except that it is true that this would happen... :smallfrown:
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
What do you call that, except an infinite number of attacks?
Arbitrarily high. There are legitimate inifinite loops in D&D, but since the game deals with real numbers, the loop has to be non-terminating. Pun-pun, the greatest rules abuse in the game, does not have infinite ability scores.
Even if you have only a 5% (20/100=5) chance of any attack not generating another attack, eventually you will run out of attacks because 1/20 attacks will fail statistically. Eventually a long string of 1s will occur, whether this is part of the third iteration or after Graham's Number of iterations is irrelevant. Statistically you will roll 1 enough times to end the sequence, eventually. Therefore it's not infinite.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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Originally Posted by
quiet1mi
all that work... then the Dm throws nothing but crit immune zombies.... this would not be funny except that it is true that this would happen... :smallfrown:
With insane numbers of attacks (that doesn't depend on opps being Crittable), it doesn't really matter what opponents the DM throws.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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Originally Posted by
Eldariel
With insane numbers of attacks (that doesn't depend on opps being Crittable), it doesn't really matter what opponents the DM throws.
It does if the DM gives your enemy appallingly high Concealment chances, á la the way a lot of optimised wizards create their armor. I'd understood (and someone can correct me if I've got it wrong) that Concealment chance cuts across everything bar a natural 20, including critical hit damage. Assuming the insane number of attacks depends on a continual chain of guaranteed hits, I would've thought most decent Concealment applications have a 40% chance of shutting down this build.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
I'm going to avoid typing out the full calculation I used, because it's hellish. If you want to continue arguing, I'll type it up, but tbh, you do not want to try and wrap you're brain around it. I'm in my second year studying maths at Cambridge uni, and it took a lot of tricks I've learned and a coupla hours of calculation. (Yes, I've seen the build before, it's on WotC optimisation board, and there's one on this board too...both use TWF kukris though.)
Here's a slightly simpler way of explaining it.
Every time you make an attack, if there's a 3/4 chance of critting and hitting, (hit+crit on a 6) you (on average) spawn 21/16 attacks.
Then, when you make your 21/16 attacks, you multiply the expected number of attacks by 21/16 to get the new number.
The expected number of attacks on your nth 'round' of attacks is (21/16)^n
And the chance of all of them missing is (1/4)^((21/16)^n)
We have to multiply by the probability that the solution hasn't failed yet
And then the sum of those is equal to just under 1/2, nowhere near 1.
The full solution relies on no less than 4 partial sums and 1 sum to infinity. You REALLY don't want to see this. I can provide it if you wish, but I suggest you don't.
EDIT: @Zeful,
The build I'm considering not only continues to generate attacks, but generates MORE attacks as time goes by. It becomes less and less probable for the sequence to end faster than we gain in chances due to sheer numbers of attacks.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldariel
With insane numbers of attacks (that doesn't depend on opps being Crittable), it doesn't really matter what opponents the DM throws.
He's got a good point. You can still Crit against things immune to Critical Hits/Percision Damage. You still Crit, and can still confirm that it Crits, it just doesn't take the extra damage...
I seem to recall, probabbly from 3.0, of the psionic powers Embed Weapon which would let you graft two weapons onto your hands. Then manifest Duodimensional Hands to cheese the Crit-Range of whatever you're using... Forgive me if it goes pear-shaped, but I remember it working as such. No idea how it stacks...
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
So the build is defeated by a smokestick?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Yeah, concealment tends to shut down the build, but it'll still get a fair few atttacks off against anything with concealment.
Interesting question....if you crit against a mirror image (as the spell), would you get an extra attack?
And since nobody answered, I'll ask again, do you roll once or twice to attack with a weapon with the splitting property?
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There's actually another reason it doesn't give you truly infinite attacks. Let's say you average 15 points of damage per hit (not real high, but you've sunk your resources into an absurdly large crit range). You're fighting a Cauchemar. The Cauchemar has 172 hit points. After around twelve hits, you're probably going to stop.
Unless you want to keep beating a dead horse, of course.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldariel
Wouldn't Aptitude get past this?
No, actually. Aptitude is feats, and those are classes.
I know it was a page back, but many folk don't seem to know that. Just wanted to get it out there.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack Mann
There's actually another reason it doesn't give you truly infinite attacks. Let's say you average 15 points of damage per hit (not real high, but you've sunk your resources into an absurdly large crit range). You're fighting a Cauchemar. The Cauchemar has 172 hit points. After around twelve hits, you're probably going to stop.
Unless you want to keep beating a dead horse, of course.
Well, I can think of a couple of scenarios it would be effective.
You have a weapon which deals negative levels somehow and want to buff an undead to ridiculous levels. (you need neg energy damage, or the undead to have DR high enough to not take much damage from normal attacks.)
The Tarrasque. This build can literally put the Tarrasque down, to the extent that it won't get back up for BILLIONS of years.
Can you crit when attacking an object? If so, this build can break the earth with enough time :smalltongue:
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
Well, I can think of a couple of scenarios it would be effective.
You have a weapon which deals negative levels somehow and want to buff an undead to ridiculous levels. (you need neg energy damage, or the undead to have DR high enough to not take much damage from normal attacks.)
The Tarrasque. This build can literally put the Tarrasque down, to the extent that it won't get back up for BILLIONS of years.
Can you crit when attacking an object? If so, this build can break the earth with enough time :smalltongue:
Negative levels don't do anything to undead. Enervation just so happens to add temporary hitpoints.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saintheart
It does if the DM gives your enemy appallingly high Concealment chances, á la the way a lot of optimised wizards create their armor. I'd understood (and someone can correct me if I've got it wrong) that Concealment chance cuts across everything bar a natural 20, including critical hit damage. Assuming the insane number of attacks depends on a continual chain of guaranteed hits, I would've thought most decent Concealment applications have a 40% chance of shutting down this build.
I'm fairly sure that concealment negates natural 20s. Additionally, I'm not sure if concealment stops you from rolling a critical threat. This build relies on rolling crit threats, not hitting or critting. It may be entirely possible to effectively ignore concealment, if it's only negating 40% of your nigh-infinite number of attacks.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aethernox
I'm fairly sure that concealment negates natural 20s. Additionally, I'm not sure if concealment stops you from rolling a critical threat. This build relies on rolling crit threats, not hitting or critting. It may be entirely possible to effectively ignore concealment, if it's only negating 40% of your nigh-infinite number of attacks.
It still makes it far more likely to end abruptly.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
The paladin spell Bless Weapon makes all threats become auto-crits, but doesn't work with weapons that already have some critical enhancing ability.
But I think that one of the abilities of the Fist of Raziel PrC is to gain this auto confirm against evil creatures when using a smite. Unlike the Bless Weapon spell, it does stack with others critical-enhancing abilities. So, if you can afford a level of paladin and a level of Fist of Raziel, you could at least have an auto crit against some creatures once or twice a day.
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
Can you crit when attacking an object? If so, this build can break the earth with enough time :smalltongue:
No, because the earth (or whatever planet) is an object, therefore immune to critical hits. There are better ways to destroy the world in D&D, though...:smallwink:
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Just being immune to crits isn't enough, they still threaten and confirm, just don't do extra damage, so they do proc extra attacks. Personally, I think destroying the planet as a standard action at mid-teens ( I think....we don't need too much warblade to get the stance we want and the feats...how much weaponmaster do we need?) in level seems pretty good tbh.
I don't think our weapons have any crit enhancing ability....Improved critical, DoD and weaponmaster levels are all that are used.
@sofawall: Concealment does indeed cause a problem, but if you have enough + to hits from blood on the water, and if you have a good crit threat range, the build can still go infinite vs concealment. As usual, though, true seeing would be very nice to negate some of that miss chance.
I'm sad I can't have the mega-undead...it looked so fun :smalltongue: but guess I forgot to check that one properly, I just went by memory, since enervation is the only time I usually come across neg levels in most games.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
Just being immune to crits isn't enough, they still threaten and confirm, just don't do extra damage, so they do proc extra attacks. Personally, I think destroying the planet as a standard action at mid-teens ( I think....we don't need too much warblade to get the stance we want and the feats...how much weaponmaster do we need?) in level seems pretty good tbh.
Strongheart Halfling Crusaders with feycraft daggers and a reroll device do it at eleven, if memory serves.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
term1nally s1ck
@sofawall: Concealment does indeed cause a problem, but if you have enough + to hits from blood on the water, and if you have a good crit threat range, the build can still go infinite vs concealment. As usual, though, true seeing would be very nice to negate some of that miss chance.
This build cannot go infinite even with no concealment, unless I;m missing something.
Is there a way to get infinite rerolls or ways to treat nat 1s as something else, even if just for one round?
Also, why do you even bring up to-hit in a discussion about concealment? +10065 to-hit against -10 AC will still miss 50% of the time if the person with -10 AC is blinking.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There is a feat from one of the completes that lets rogues treat nat 1s as nat 20s :smallamused:
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Limecat
There is a feat from one of the completes that lets rogues treat nat 1s as nat 20s :smallamused:
Is that Better Lucky Than Good? Because I don't think that works.
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Because if I only hit on 11s, and you're blinking, I only hit 1/4 of the time.
And yes, the build can go infinite, I spent a while writing out some of the maths to prove it. the 7-20 threat range which can hit on a 2 has a 60/133 chance to never run out of attacks, with each attack it makes. It doesn't hit with every attack, and it's not a guarantee that it'll go infinite....but if you get 3 attacks, and you hit with a 2 on all of them (Blood on the Water, hit rats. a lot.) then you get an 83.5% chance to go infinite that turn.
@aethernox is that the d2 trick? I love that trick, it's just funny.
Halfling: I poke him with my tiny dagger (basically a letter opener
DM: The impact completely destroys him, and nothing is left.