Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
One thing I'll point out is how builds often end up being illegal, using dirgesinger as an example. The PHB defines your order of operations at level up, and it says you pick your class first, then feat(s), then skill ranks (there are other things, but the order of those 3 is what matters here). This means at 6th level, for instance, you can't use your 6th level feat to qualify for a PRC you're taking that level, because you need to pick the PRC before you pick up a new feat, and you can't use skill ranks picked up at 6th level to qualify for a feat.
In Libra Mortis, the sample dirgesinger is a bard5/dirgesinger2. But you can't get into dirgesinger at 6th level in this fashion, because dirgesinger requires the requiem feat, which requires 8 ranks in perform. Which means requiem would need to be taken at 6th level, which means you couldn't be a dirgesinger until level 7.
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hirax
One thing I'll point out is how builds often end up being illegal, using dirgesinger as an example. The PHB defines your order of operations at level up, and it says you pick your class first, then feat(s), then skill ranks (there are other things, but the order of those 3 is what matters here). This means at 6th level, for instance, you can't use your 6th level feat to qualify for a PRC you're taking that level, because you need to pick the PRC before you pick up a new feat, and you can't use skill ranks picked up at 6th level to qualify for a feat.
In Libra Mortis, the sample dirgesinger is a bard5/dirgesinger2. But you can't get into dirgesinger at 6th level in this fashion, because dirgesinger requires the requiem feat, which requires 8 ranks in perform. Which means requiem would need to be taken at 6th level, which means you couldn't be a dirgesinger until level 7.
Actually, you pick skill ranks before feats. That said, this still doesn't work, because you don't get a feat at 5th level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
This is fun.
Random book: Complete Adventurer
Random prestige class: Dread Pirate
Does not qualify for the prestige class; class requires 8 ranks in appraise, while the maximum ranks he could have at level 5 as a bard 3/fighter 2 is 7 (as Appraise is a cross-class skill for Fighter).
Edit: He also can't have the prerequisite ranks in Profession (Sailor), as that's also not a class skill for the Fighter.
That's also not how max ranks work. Unless you mean he doesn't have high enough Intelligence?
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Urpriest
That's also not how max ranks work. Unless you mean he doesn't have high enough Intelligence?
More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).
Yes? No?
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).
Yes? No?
No. Once a skill has been a class skill, it will always be a class skill in reguards to max ranks. But you are right that the fighter will be paying 2 skill points per rank purchased.
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boci
No. Once a skill has been a class skill, it will always be a class skill in reguards to max ranks. But you are right that the fighter will be paying 2 skill points per rank purchased.
You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).
I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).
Yes? No?
Interclass skills can have 2 points spent in them per level up to get a +1 bonus when you level up
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
More of a PF person, so it's completely possible I have this wrong. IIRC:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 6 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down)
Fighter 2 - 7 ranks max (1/2 CC level, rounded down, costs 2 skill points).
Yes? No?
Actually it should be:
Bard 1 - 4 ranks max
Bard 2 - 5 ranks max
Bard 3 - 6 ranks max
Fighter 1 - 7 ranks max (1 skill point = 2 skill levels)
Fighter 2 - 8 ranks max (1 skill point = 2 skill levels)
This link puts it better. The relevant part is as follows: "Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3."
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).
I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.
Took me a fair while to learn it myself. I've always felt PF fans give the system a bit more credit than its worth, but I gotta aknowledge that their simplification of class and CC skills works very well.
Re: Illegal Prebuilt NPCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Novawurmson
You learn something new every day. I think he qualifies as he gets 4 ranks for each level of fighter (Int of 13, human bonus rank).
I never really did understand the cross class/class skill system when I played 3.5.
it is involved, but not super complicated. basically, it works like this:
if something is a class skill for you now, then you pay 1 point per rank, and your cap is your level + 3. let's use bluff as our example. Malsaern the Enlightened starts out as a rogue (like he should, to get more skill points at level 1) and takes some points in bluff. at level 1, his cap is 4, and those 4 ranks cost him 4 points. everything's groovy.
if you leave that class and go into one that does not have bluff (such as a cleric without the trickery domain) your cap remains the same (if something is or ever was a class skill for you, the cap is always at your level + 3) but you now pay 2 points per rank. malsaern wants to keep maxing bluff so he can get into ur-priest on time, but now has to pay 2 points for that 1 rank. he now has 5 points in bluff as of level 2.
due to stuff costing double, it is also possible to buy half-ranks in skills. this means that if malsaern needed to buy points in other stuff for ur-priest as well (he does) and ran out of room for bluff due to not allocating enough points to intelligence, having only 1 spare left over, he could add a half-rank at level 3.
this means he'd pay 1 skill point, but since the conversion rate is doubled since it's not a class skill for cleric, he only gets 0.5 ranks in return. when you have a decimal rank, you round down for the purpose of rolls. half-ranks do allow you to make trained only rolls, and are not restricted as to what skills they can be applied to, so if you wanted to take a spare skill point you didn't know what to do with, chop it in half and put 0.5 into Forgery and 0.5 into Lucid Dreaming, you could if you really wanted to.
so malsaern spends 1 point on bluff at level 3, but gets .5 in return. he is now at 5.5 ranks for bluff, with a cap of 6.
if something is not a class skill for you, your cap is (your character level +3) /2. so at level 3 for malsaern, it's 3 for, say, knowledge (underwater basketweaving). skill ranks also still cost double for cross-class skills that were never class skills. these are the skills it's hardest to get points in, and prevents people from taking fun prcs.
there is a silver lining to this dark cloud. able learner, from races of destiny will allow cross-class skills to be bought at only 1 point per rank. this is pretty darn huge, and means a character with able learner and a factotum dip can take any skills they like forever at-cost. some tables houserule that everybody has able learner to make it easier for people to qualify for fun offbeat prcs. I've tried it and it's hardly a game-breaker, and due to the cap still being in place with able learner, it doesn't invalidate skillmonkey types. the feat's human or doppleganger only and 1st lvl only, but talk to your DM. it's widely agreed that not including changeling was a simple typographical error.
as far as my illegal prebuilt NPC goes, well, you've probably guessed it by now, it's good old Malsaern the Enlightened, the sample ur-priest from complete divine. what's most frustrating about him, aside from his horrible build, is that he easily could have actually met the draconian prerequisites to ur-priest due to having a level in rogue, which gives him bluff as a class skill, and enough skill points to buy a few CC ranks in the 3 knowledges he needs, none of which are on the rogue's list, and a cleric without a good int bonus (like malsaern, rockin' a 12) does not have enough points to consistently max fast enough to qualify for ur-priest on time.
now, as far as his buiid goes, as mentioned, sample NPCs only have feats from the PHB and whatever splat they are released in, so I'm not going to bother to complain about his weapon focus (though it is with the morningstar, which is an absolutely brilliant reference given the class) and honestly, divine spell power is a step up from the kind of feats most sample NPCs have.
what bugs me the most (aside from him actually taking cleric to get into ur-priest, and failing to take trickery domain to get bluff as a class skill) is that he takes his cleric levels first. take the class with the most skill points first! he would've had almost enough to actually qualify for the class if he'd done that.
I find ur-priest the most egregious violation, personally. mainly because it's so simple to qualify for. I understand if something like ardent dilettante, trapsmith, dungeon delver, or some other thing with fifty zillion skill ranks required isn't properly qualified for, but ur-priest is comparatively simple.