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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
the eidolon can use rake attacks each time he makes a grapple check.
after you hit with e.g. a claw that is linked to grapple evolution and hit then you can make a combat maneveur check. is this check a grapple check?
or is it like the rake ability for monsters that can use rake not in the same round when they start a grapple?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
the eidolon can use rake attacks each time he makes a grapple check.
after you hit with e.g. a claw that is linked to grapple evolution and hit then you can make a combat maneveur check. is this check a grapple check?
or is it like the rake ability for monsters that can use rake not in the same round when they start a grapple?
It follows the rules in the Rake and Grab evolutions. Grab's is explicitly a Grapple, given it gives you a bonus on grapples. Rake says that you may rake when you succeed on a Grapple, so yes, if your claw hits and you successfully grapple, you may then Rake. In connection to Pounce, that is the way to bring Rake to bear, though you have to utilize the Grab intermediary.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
just one more question ;-)
situation: you have successully grappled.
the next round you have to spend a standard action to maintain grapple. in this case you can make 1 attack + rake if you succeed the check
sounds bad
you can release the grapple as a free action and start a full attack with possible grapple checks
sounds better. correct?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
If you have attacks which trigger on a grapple attempt you can grab, trigger the extra attacks, free action release the grapple and grab again with a different natural attack in the same round ... and you can repeat that for as many natural attacks as you can grab with.
Works with constrict and rake.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
i guess every gm would forbid 2+ grapples and releasing in the same round because it is unrealistic
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
i saw many people in this thread crying about master summoner and broodmaster
there are advantages but most of the people here just compare the "damage per round" their eidolons could do.
let me show you there are different options
the eidolon can grapple but grappling is normally bad. why grapple someone when you could kill him in this or the next round? if you only play killer parties and no roleplaying you dont need this. if you have a quest and you want to capture (and not kill) someone.... or the enemy is too strong to kill him in a few rounds....
grapple takes a standard action so you cant do a full round action. a weak eidolon wouldnt lose much dps if it grapples. so you can knockout one enemy with your weak eidolon that focus on grappling (pin the enemy)
a weak eidolon can still use wands. just maximize use magic device and the eidolon doesnt need more evolutions and attacks. you can reduce your eidolon by default so its harder to hit. just give it a wand of cure wounds.
a broodmaster could have at level 8 4 small eidolons with a use magic device of 1-2(ranks)+3(class skill)+8(skill evolution)+1(charisma including ability increase)=14-15 and nuke magic missiles
(umd doesnt say anything about emulating a caster level so you can use a wand of fireballs at level 1, right?)
there is another evolution that is normally nearly useless/wasted: web
have 4 eidolons that use 4x8 webs per day or a master summoner that has 1 web eidolon and summons many spiders
web hits easily and it takes the enemy 1 standard action to burst it. in other words: web disables most melee-enemies for 1 round. nice croud control (even if you party has only melee characters)
you could also ride on a flying mount that never engages in melee (though it needs only 2 evolutionpoints and 1 hd you should give it more hitpoints. otherwise just 1 arrow pulls you back to the earth...and not gently)
a master summoner + skilldolon is also nice
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
i guess every gm would forbid 2+ grapples and releasing in the same round because it is unrealistic
Because the Eidolon has to be at least one size category larger than it's target to grapple in the first place, my GM houseruled I could grapple one target per claw attack (fluff-wise, it's more of a 'stand on' than a 'grapple'). I can't release and grapple the same target more than once, but sinse my Synthesist is the party Tank, I spend a lot of my time leaping pouncing into the middle of groups.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
this guide says
Quote:
There's no way to get natural weapons to break DR/Adamantine or Cold Iron.
a +1 weapon counts a magic and can penetrate 5/magic for example
an eidolon with amulet of mighty fist +1 can penetrate the damage reduction too
somewhere in the rulebook (creating magic weapons) is written that a +5 weapon can penetrate 5/adamantite so an eidolon with amulet of mighty fist can do it too
right?
p.s.
the ripper (bear form) has 2 reach evolutions. you can have only 1
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
this guide says
a +1 weapon counts a magic and can penetrate 5/magic for example
an eidolon with amulet of mighty fist +1 can penetrate the damage reduction too
somewhere in the rulebook (creating magic weapons) is written that a +5 weapon can penetrate 5/adamantite so an eidolon with amulet of mighty fist can do it too
right?
p.s.
the ripper (bear form) has 2 reach evolutions. you can have only 1
It's under Damage Reduction in the special abilities appendix. It's easy to overlook. Also, you only need it to be +3 for Cold Iron or Silver, +4 for Adamantine, though that doesn't allow you to ignore hardness like actual Adamantine does.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
what happens if you cast 2 evolution surge in a row?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
what happens if you cast 2 evolution surge in a row?
You get 2 different evolutions temporarily, as long as they're 4 points or less and meets all the spell's restrictions.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
What am I missing, because "Undead Appearance" looks crazy awful. You PAY to get effected negatively by almost an entire school of spells in exchange for some +2 to save bonuses, and the things you get +2 bonuses against
Disease: too bad you just hit the level it becomes easily cured! You even have a built in quarantine method.
Fatigue and Exhaustion. That's Ray of Exhaustion (not rare), forced marches (uh... yeah) and Rage, and your Elidoon can't rage and it doesn't offer a save ANYWAYS.
Paralysis: Where to start with paralysis (And it has to be actual paralysis, not what triggers freedom of movement)? How about that the most common method doesn't work anyways due to not being a Humanoid, and the next most common isn't until level 9 for wizards and 10 for sorcs when Freedom of Movement is there?
Poisons: Same
Sleep: Like Paralysis except instead of type and one reasonably threatening spell, it doesn't work because of HD limits! Joy.
I love how they rub it in by the spells they explicitly mention being the ones that let people go up to your Elidolon and say "Save or start killing your friend (which from your prospective means you)".
I wouldn't have looked at it twice if not for fluff.
I don't think it would be that effective for healing given you are restoring it from "dedicated Elidolon healing regardless of this trait" wands.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
with the ultimate magic book your eidolon can use spells. only bad spells for a high evolution cost.
better: craft some items with "craft wondrous items" that can use spells 1-3 times a day and give it your eidolon.
using items that only need a command word is a swift action, right?
some examples for self made eidolon items. (there is a premade belt of gianth strength but you could craft a "hat of gianth strength, right? doesnt matter if bonus doesnt stack)
vendor price: 1800 gp x spell level x caster level
material cost = 0,5 x vendor price
cast it x times per day: multiply the cost by x
bracers of shield: cast shield as a command word and it lasts 1 minute. useable once per day. costs 1800 gp vendor price. so it costs you 900 gp when you craft it on your own. for 1800 gp material cost you could make shield last 2 minutes
boots of haste: (i know similar already exist) cast haste on yourself that last 4 rounds and can be cast once per day. material cost 900x2x4=7200gp
does this haste buff nearby allies?
eye glass of enlarge person: shouldnt work if your eidolon wears it. does it work when you use it and give it to your eidolon by share spells?
gloves of permanent mage armor:
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If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
its a 1 hour duration so the cost multiplier is 1. 1 x 2000gp x casterlevel x spell level = 2000 gp = 1000 gp material cost
boots of permanent haste: 4x 2000gp x 4 x 2 = 64.000gp a hot deal ;-)
if a wirzard would create this boots: 4 x 2000gp x 5 x 3 = 120.000gp
(dont ask your gm if the court magician will sell such an item if you can do it yourself)
one thing is missing when creating new custom items: the difficulty. compare it to similar items if you can
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deuxhero
Undead Appearance: Useful?
I think the only saving grace of Undead Appearance is that it opens up later evolutions but that's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
with the ultimate magic book your eidolon can use spells. only bad spells for a high evolution cost.
better: craft some items with "craft wondrous items" that can use spells 1-3 times a day and give it your eidolon.
using items that only need a command word is a swift action, right?
Command word items are standard action activation by default unless it says otherwise.
Quote:
some examples for self made eidolon items. (there is a premade belt of gianth strength but you could craft a "hat of gianth strength, right? doesnt matter if bonus doesnt stack)
You can craft stuff for different slots but those cost more if they're not in the affinity slot.
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boots of haste: (i know similar already exist) cast haste on yourself that last 4 rounds and can be cast once per day. material cost 900x2x4=7200gp
does this haste buff nearby allies?
You didn't limit it away from just affecting the wearer, so yes, it would buff others.
Quote:
eye glass of enlarge person: shouldnt work if your eidolon wears it. does it work when you use it and give it to your eidolon by share spells?
The Summoner isn't casting it if they use the item, so Share Spells doesn't work.
The only other thing is if that you're spending your feat slots to craft this stuff, which only helps if you have the down time to make the stuff and the skills to succeed at the craft checks. If the campaign doesn't have downtime between adventures, you're out feat slots and skill points. :smallannoyed:
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
craft wondrous items is just one feat. not 2 or more
Quote:
You can craft stuff for different slots but those cost more if they're not in the affinity slot.
where do i find a list of affinity slots?
p.s. what about continuous effects in items that can discharge like protection from arrows?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holladiewaldfee
where do i find a list of affinity slots?
Apparently that rule got dropped between 3.5 and PF, though it's frowned on for ability enhancement items to be in slots other than the headband and belt slot, at least unofficially.
Quote:
p.s. what about continuous effects in items that can discharge like protection from arrows?
What about them? They're priced at SL x CL x 2000 gp. If you mean what happens when they run out of protection, they'll either go the same direction as the brooch of shielding and just cease and break or you can just reset them on your turn. I'd work it out with your DM in either case, as I honestly don't know.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Except only strength goes in belt (and it has an item in the DMG that goes in the gloves slot and also does it!) and int into headbands.
In fact, in 3.5, the MIC explicitly says to go ahead and stack +stat items onto another item with no additional costs because you can't function without them because the game is balanced with the expectation you have them.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deuxhero
Except only strength goes in belt (and it has an item in the DMG that goes in the gloves slot and also does it!) and int into headbands.
In fact, in 3.5, the MIC explicitly says to go ahead and stack +stat items onto another item with no additional costs because you can't function without them because the game is balanced with the expectation you have them.
I was just stating the PF take on it, which moves physical boosts all into belts and mental boosts all into headbands.
Also, you forget the Belt of Magnificence, bonus to all stats. :smallwink:
If we are truly going 3.P, then Body Slot Affinities may actually matter. And yes, I know the MIC made magic more flexible in terms of common enchantments not ruling out other items for that slot, it's just from the PF side that they approached it different by trying to make all the ability boosters hit two slots and move common stuff into other slots (Monk's Belt to Monk's Robe, for example).
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
@saph since you suggest "craft woundrous items" you should mention some low price items in your guide. those perfectly made for eidolons
...of continuous shield : permanent shield spell for 2000gp material cost
...of continuous mage armor: permanent mage armor for 1000gp material cost
...of "level 1 spell": once per day a spell level 1 at caster level 1 for 900gp material cost (ranger and paladin level 1 spells cost more)(most spells that last 1 minute are good enough)
...of lead blades: once per day your weapons are bigger for 4 minutes. 3600gp (do claws count as weapons?)
...of physical might: +1 to 2 different ability scores for 875gp material cost. (much cheaper than +2 to strength. your eidolon has sometimes odd numbers of strength, constitution and/or dexterity. a prerequisite for this crafting is bull strength or something like that)
spellcraft DC: all these should be under 10 except when you want a spell that you dont know (+5 for a missing prerequisite)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
First time playing a pen and paper RPG so feel free to tell me I'm doing things completely wrong. Have several questions relating to Summoner and would appreciate it if you could help me out. Using the suggested "Ripper" build for my Eidolon:
Ripper (Bear Form) - 1st Level
Spoiler
Show
Form: Biped
Evolutions (extra): Bite (1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)
Feats: Power Attack
AC: 13
Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +4 (1d6+6) and 2 claws +4 (1d4+4)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Enlarge Person
1: OP says that your Eidolon gets half of its first hit dice, so at level one it should be 5HP, correct? Can it be healed to 10HP? Once it gets to 2 HD, does it move to 10HP max, 15HP max, or 20HP max?
2: I am unsure of how much damage my Eidolon does. Without power attack but with a full attack, does it do 1d6+4, 1d4+2, 1d4+2 or 1d6+4, 1d4+1d4+2 or 1d6+4, 1d4+2? Unsure of how the claws work exactly. How much damage do I do if I take a move action first and then attack? Just the 1d6+4?
3: I should be getting +5 to attack rolls because of the STR modifier (+4) and the +1 BAB, correct?
4: How does Enlarge Person interact with the above damage totals? Does Bite now do 1d8+5?
5: We are using the UM and UC books as well, and I am curious as to how highly I should rate the "Extra Evolution" feat. If I were to take it, what would be the ideal usage of the extra point at lvl 1?
6: I understand that I get to select 4 extra class skills for my Eidolon. What are suggested? Does "Heal" work like I hope it does? I'm pretty sure I want Climb and Swim considering my +4 STR modifier.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l2ampage
1: OP says that your Eidolon gets half of its first hit dice, so at level one it should be 5HP, correct? Can it be healed to 10HP? Once it gets to 2 HD, does it move to 10HP max, 15HP max, or 20HP max?
Actually, it starts with 6 HP, since as a Biped Eidolon it has a Con of 13. That's its max hit point total at 1 HD, you can't over heal it or something. At 2 HD, provided you don't pick up Toughness or grab Ability Increase (Constitution), it should have 12 HP.
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2: I am unsure of how much damage my Eidolon does. Without power attack but with a full attack, does it do 1d6+4, 1d4+2, 1d4+2 or 1d6+4, 1d4+1d4+2 or 1d6+4, 1d4+2? Unsure of how the claws work exactly. How much damage do I do if I take a move action first and then attack? Just the 1d6+4?
The stat block seems wrong, as both the claws and bite are a primary and should be getting full Str, unless I'm misreading how Eidolon natural attacks work. So basically, they should read as such:
Normal: Bite 1d6+4, 2 claws 1d4+4 each
Power Attack: Bite 1d6+6, 2 claws 1d4+6
You can only bring all your natural attacks to bear if you full attack, so if you move first and spend a standard to make an attack without Power Attack, I'd suggest using your bite for that 1d6+4.
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3: I should be getting +5 to attack rolls because of the STR modifier (+4) and the +1 BAB, correct?
Correct.
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4: How does Enlarge Person interact with the above damage totals? Does Bite now do 1d8+5?
Your Strength will increase to 20 and your natural attacks will all increase a die size. So your attack progression will become:
Normal: Bite 1d8+5, 2 claws 1d6+5 each
Power Attack: Bite 1d8+7, 2 claws 1d6+7 each
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5: We are using the UM and UC books as well, and I am curious as to how highly I should rate the "Extra Evolution" feat. If I were to take it, what would be the ideal usage of the extra point at lvl 1?
Evolution points are always useful and more of them are always welcome. How you use it depends on whether you want to amp up its defenses by Improved Natural Armor or possibly make the bite more damaging by taking Bite a second time to increase the Str bonus to 1.5 x Str, so 1d6+6 normal, 1d8+7 Enlarged. Have a look around through the Evolutions, take a look at the ratings and suggested builds and you should find something nice pretty easily. One of my favorites is Skilled(Perception).
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6: I understand that I get to select 4 extra class skills for my Eidolon. What are suggested? Does "Heal" work like I hope it does? I'm pretty sure I want Climb and Swim considering my +4 STR modifier.
Heal does indeed Heal, though usually slower than magical healing does. Still, it doesn't hurt to know how to patch people up, though it won't be of much use if that person is you, since if you're unconscious, the Eidolon has gone home.
Climb and Swim are good, as is Acrobatics, which covers all the skills to make you able to get around to wherever.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Well, Climb is good until you can fly.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deuxhero
Well, Climb is good until you can fly.
Sure but you can't do that till 5th at the earliest, when the Flight evolution becomes available. When that happens, you just put the points you were investing in Climb into Fly, since it becomes a class skill then.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cieyrin
2 claws 1d4+4 each
This reads to me like 1d4+1d4+8...
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l2ampage
This reads to me like 1d4+1d4+8...
Provided they both hit, sure. You roll each claw attack separately.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
If you are level 20 summoner and you turn into your quadruped (or serpentine for this matter) eidolon, can you cast spells normally or do you need a feat or something? Especifically for the somatic components, I am aware that your eidolon can talk just like you, so I assume vocal components are no problem.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aurenthal
If you are level 20 summoner and you turn into your quadruped (or serpentine for this matter) eidolon, can you cast spells normally or do you need a feat or something? Especifically for the somatic components, I am aware that your eidolon can talk just like you, so I assume vocal components are no problem.
I think you're screwed if you need any somatic or material components. You retain the ability to cast, as the feature specifically says you retain all class features, which would include spellcasting. I'd give it a set of arms if you really want to cast in Eidolon form, though that you may be able to save yourself the evolution points by Evolutionary Surging them.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
When I put my first rank in linguistics do I learn one language or 4, 3 extra for the class skill bonus?
It mentions in the OP that you want to be able to communicate with your summons to give them orders, but the creatures on the lower level summon lists don't have languages listed. Does this mean you can't communicate with them?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l2ampage
When I put my first rank in linguistics do I learn one language or 4, 3 extra for the class skill bonus?
It mentions in the OP that you want to be able to communicate with your summons to give them orders, but the creatures on the lower level summon lists don't have languages listed. Does this mean you can't communicate with them?
Just one. The +3 due to it being a class skil reperesents you studying the phonetics of a language. This is helpful since you can use it to decipher different dialects of a language, or to look at a similiar language later on.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
So, something I've been mulling over. Your eidolon is an outsider that resides on another plane. Could you use Planar Binding/Planar Ally to call your Eidolon? Could someone else? Would your eidolon charge to help you or just do it for free?