Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

There was a bill passed in 1975 to convert the US to the metric system, but someone replaced the "within 10 years" phrase with "voluntary conversion". So nothing really happened. :smallmad:

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Aye. The Mars probe disaster wasn't a "nobody should use USCU, everyone should use metric" issue, it was a "write the dang units!" issue. Which almost every basic math and science class I'd ever taken were consistently and uniformly insistent on.

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Actually it was more a "comment your goddamn code!" issue.

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Originally Posted by Jasdoif

Personally, I think preferred units are a matter of culture, as well as of measure. Units are as important as the number they're associated with, and the people using them; and unit conversion is cultural acceptance given technical form: The idea that other people's thoughts and words are no less valuable solely for being made along different lines than your own, even if you don't understand why they're different; and with a little effort you can still understand what they're saying, and it's worthwhile. Like you say, an eighth-of-a-billion-dollar Mars probe was lost because some people only looked at the numbers and just assumed their units were the only one that could matter; and that was an incident that only cost dollars instead of lives.

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The thing is systems having different origins doesn't mean some aren't objectively better made. For example, I think that the way we French say 70, 80 and 90 is stupid and we should use the Swiss and Belgian words for them because the one we use don't fit with the rest anymore. It would be hard to do because habits are hard to change, but if ther were a movement to do just that I'd support it.

Likewise the USCU are defined based on the SI units, most everybody else is already using the SI, whose mission statement is to belong to all of mankind as a whole rather than a single country and many people in the U.S. are already using the SI units especially in the fields of science because it eases communication and because theya re objectively easier to use for switching from length to volule to mass to force to energy or any other combination.

So really besides tradition is there a reason not to do complete the transition? because the longer it takes, the harder it will be to do most likely. I don't really care myself since I don't really have to deal with american units with anything resembling frequency, but I am curious.

Not even tradition is a good reason for not switching. Metric is so much f***ing simpler to use.

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Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud

Not even tradition is a good reason

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Tradition is a terrible reason for most* things really.


*the exception being ‘as an excuse to party’ because there are no wrong reason to party.

I'm sorry. I didn't think my comment would spawn this flamewar. (If you wanted to know my opinion on this, see a recent post elsewhere.)

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Originally Posted by b_jonas

If you wanted to know my opinion on this,[/url] see a recent post elsewhere.
[...]
I don’t understand why it is considered so backwards that Americans measure some lengths in inches and feet and yards and miles and some weights in ounces and pounds. Like, do a few different non-metric units make that much of a difference? Or is a unit especially bad just because it’s “imperial”?

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It does make a difference, and it is not bad because it's imperial, it is bad because there is no unit continuity. For example, you are furbishing a road. You need to estimate how many safety guardrails you'll need. Each one is about, say, 60 inches long. The road is 150 miles long. How many will you need? Heck if anyone can tell. But if the road is 150 km long, and each guardrail is 60 cm long, then it is practically trivial. (this is an actual situation I was confronted with, except with gas pipelines. A bad conversion was giving the wrong numbers, but because there is an absurd number of inches to a miles, no-one knew the values were off until I converted everything to metric, and spotted that something was not in the ballpark).

Or, in my everyday life rather than professional one: I was trying to chlorinate my child's pool. If it is 80 cm to the side, and I filled it 25 cm deep, the volume in litres is simple enough, and thus the amount of chlorine that needs to go in. But if you measured it in inches (and let's say that it's a bigger one, and it is 80 inches to the side and 25 inches deep so that it's not the numbers that are the issue)... can any American even calculate how many gallons of water there are? Or do they need to go running to a private corporation to do their basic math for them? And this is not a place where you want to be off - chlorine is only safe between 2 and 5 parts per million. If you put in the wrong number of (checks)... quarter of teaspoons (!?) you could easily cause serious damage. And good luck to you if it turns out you need 3.28 quarters of teaspoon.

I don't give a damn if the base value is based on the size of the Earth or some dead king's shoe size. I care that I can trivially convert between lengths and volumes, and scale up and down without having to depend on having an Internet connection.

Grey Wolf

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

can any American even calculate how many gallons of water there are? Or do they need to go running to a private corporation to do their basic math for them?

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Oh, don't worry, they offer those conversions for a nice, flat fee! Or, well, they used to. Now they've moved to the subscription model. Turns out they can just demand money on a constant basis instead of only once. Innovation!

So essentially potions are bottles of Five Hour Energy.

Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch. Most people couldn't do the calculations that you mention anyway. I'm not saying that Americans are stupid or that their educations are bad, most Europeans who grew up here with the metric system also can't do those calculations, and will commit stupid mistakes.

I don't think uses inches makes it that much weird. I can remember that an inch is 0.0254 meters, a foot is 0.305 meters, and an ounce is usually either 0.028 liters or 0.028 kilograms, and can do calculations in my head with them, and the people who have to do these calculations and actually live in a place where they have to use these units are even more familiar with them. Most calculations aren't as simple as the ones you've picked, and you'll have to remember similar arbitrary constants for them anyway. In practice, I have to remember that my handspan is 0.023 meters long and a credit card is almost 0.10 meter long and an A4 paper is 0.279 meter times 0.210 meters long, because these are the ones I actually use for measuring distances because they're faster than getting a centimeter scale, even though I actually carry a centimeter scale in my backpack. I also have to remember approximately how much real money euros, US dollars, british pounds, swedish crowns are worth in real money (and ideal canadian dollars and australian dollars too, because some far east sellers use those on ebay), and those conversions even keep changing. Heck, I have to do conversions of time units and I'm supposed to know the numeric values for all the month names, and I make mistakes with the latter ones all the time, especially for August. The arbitrary constants that I need for eyeballing calculations aren't much better than what Americans need with their units.

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Originally Posted by b_jonas

Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch.

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A.) Truncated cone, if we're going to be semantic about things.
2.) Said truncated cone had the measurements clearly listed before you could even see it, and in addition, was explicitly called out as larger than a potion bottle. The example was intended as a reference point, something most people would be familiar with even if they do not use it, to help visualize how small a potion bottle would be, since it is even smaller than that (which, again, us why the measurements were clearly called out in advance).

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Originally Posted by b_jonas

Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch. Most people couldn't do the calculations that you mention anyway. I'm not saying that Americans are stupid or that their educations are bad, most Europeans who grew up here with the metric system also can't do those calculations, and will commit stupid mistakes.

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Let's say those are universal mistakes (I disagree, but I'll grant you the point because I don't care). My point was that if you use metric, you realise that you made a mistake so much easier because the numbers convert and scale up so well. And therefore it is one less point where errors can occur. A metric user might still forget to divide the diameter by two when calculating the area of a circle, but they are not going to, say, transpose the digits of the conversion factor between cm3 and litres because there aren't any digits to transpose. The one mistake that can be made due to the unit of measurement in metric is the number of 0s, and the error size when that happens is literally in the orders of magnitude scale, and thus trivially noticeable.

Grey Wolf

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Let's say those are universal mistakes (I disagree, but I'll grant you the point because I don't care). My point was that if you use metric, you realise that you made a mistake so much easier because the numbers convert and scale up so well. And therefore it is one less point where errors can occur. A metric user might still forget to divide the diameter by two when calculating the area of a circle, but they are not going to, say, transpose the digits of the conversion factor between cm3 and litres because there aren't any digits to transpose. The one mistake that can be made due to the unit of measurement in metric is the number of 0s, and the error size when that happens is literally in the orders of magnitude scale, and thus trivially noticeable.

Grey Wolf

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It is easier to notice you have spare zeroes over a 52.80 multiplier...

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Originally Posted by Peelee

2.) and in addition, was explicitly called out as larger than a potion bottle. The example was intended as a reference point, something most people would be familiar with even if they do not use it, to help visualize how small a potion bottle would be, since it is even smaller than that (which, again, us why the measurements were clearly called out in advance).

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Sorry, you're right. I misread your post. It did clearly say "this is bigger than a potion bottle".

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

The thing is systems having different origins doesn't mean some aren't objectively better made. For example, I think that the way we French say 70, 80 and 90 is stupid and we should use the Swiss and Belgian words for them because the one we use don't fit with the rest anymore. It would be hard to do because habits are hard to change, but if ther were a movement to do just that I'd support it.

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This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.

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Originally Posted by Vinyadan

This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.

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...I’m sorry WHAT.

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Originally Posted by Vinyadan

This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.

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And so, something good came out of htis whole discussion.

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Originally Posted by danielxcutter

...I’m sorry WHAT.

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It's a reference to the Asterix books. Specifically Asterix and the Goths, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by danielxcutter

...I’m sorry WHAT.

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Septantesix is so named because Belgians say 70 "septante six" while the French say (confusingly enough) "soixante-seize".

... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.

(If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)

ETA: how many posters does it take to explain an Asterix joke? Three, as it turns out.

Grey Wolf

* Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*

* Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW

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Not really, the "freedom fries" thing never caught on. HEYO!

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.

(If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)

ETA: how many posters does it take to explain an Asterix joke? Three, as it turns out.

Grey Wolf

* Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW

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Wether or not they invented it, the Belgians stereotypically eat more of those than we do.

Also potato in French is pomme de terre (ground apple) so French fries are often called pommes frites i.e. fried apples. In Astérix It is basically stated that they are frying slices of regular apples since they don’t have potatoes yet, much like the britons are drinking hot water with milk since they have no tea yet.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.

(If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)

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I don't know about "forever", I can only think of two instances, and in neither case was it specifically identified as potatoes. At least it wasn't in the British translations. In Asterix and the Goths, a druid is shown pulling fried food out of boiling oil with his bare hands. In Asterix in Belgium someone invents "fried chipped root vegetables."

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

. In Astérix It is basically stated that they are frying slices of regular apples

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Is that in the original French? I don't remember it in the British translation.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Is that in the original French? I don't remember it in the British translation.

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I'm sure it is in the french version. I remember the Belgian guy who see a Roman soldier faint ("tomber dans les pommes") while boiling oil. That when he thought it may be a good idea.
I 'm not sure it appears in the translated comics since I don't see any way to translate the joke.

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Originally Posted by rostvoid

I'm sure it is in the french version. I remember the Belgian guy who see a Roman soldier faint ("tomber dans les pommes") while boiling oil. That when he thought it may be a good idea.
I 'm not sure it appears in the translated comics since I don't see any way to translate the joke.

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The British (purchased in Ireland, but almost all of our international books share the same text with them anyhow) version of Asterix in Belgium's joke is that he talks about how a throwaway roman boiling oil is a 'mere vegetable rooted to the spot', and how he's got a chip on his shoulder. The combination of 'chips', 'root vegetables' and 'boiled in oil' all kind of spirals from there. The apple part must have gotten lost in translation, because we don't have the whole 'apples of the earth' connection between potatoes and apples.

(Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)

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Originally Posted by deltamire

The British (purchased in Ireland, but almost all of our international books share the same text with them anyhow) version of Asterix in Belgium's joke is that he talks about how a throwaway roman boiling oil is a 'mere vegetable rooted to the spot', and how he's got a chip on his shoulder. The combination of 'chips', 'root vegetables' and 'boiled in oil' all kind of spirals from there. The apple part must have gotten lost in translation, because we don't have the whole 'apples of the earth' connection between potatoes and apples.

(Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)

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I’d imagine both to some extent, really. A lot of French puns probably don’t work in other languages, but it’s still possible to make puns in other languages that work in the situation (looking at you, Korean translation for Undertale) and the jokes that don’t rely on French probably work just fine.

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Originally Posted by deltamire

(Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)

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There is clearly a lot of puns in the French.

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Originally Posted by danielxcutter

I’d imagine both to some extent, really. A lot of French puns probably don’t work in other languages, but it’s still possible to make puns in other languages that work in the situation (looking at you, Korean translation for Undertale) and the jokes that don’t rely on French probably work just fine.

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That's the whole point of a good translation. But of course one can't translate all the subtleties of a puns...
What about Undertale ?

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Originally Posted by deltamire

(Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)

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Oh god, you have no idea. Goscinny (the author) is all about puns, sometimes the setup for a pun takes almost the entire album (like the grognards joke from Astérix in Corsica).
That said, Iznogoud is the place where he really lets loose, it's hard to find a panel without a pun somewhere.

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Originally Posted by rostvoid

There is clearly a lot of puns in the French.

That's the whole point of a good translation. But of course one can't translate all the subtleties of a puns...
What about Undertale ?

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A lot of Sans’ bone puns translate pretty well into Korean. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

what Americans call "French fries"*

* Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW

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Not surprising. As far as I understand, the American call it "fries", the British just call them "chips", and the European have this stereotypical misconception that the American have to call them "French fries" because they are too dumb to understand what "chips" or "Pommes" means.