Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

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Originally Posted by Skylivedk

Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller

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Undead. Not immune to Charm. With some exceptions ofc. Pity that command itself won't work, but at least its not a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by BarneyBent

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

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It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

@OP

I'm not sure how much of this has been said through the thread as I'm mid commute so don't have time to read it all.

I think part of this is what you value in a caster, the harder the encounters get the less a caster should be focusing on blasting imo. Martials do much more work with this, I think the real value of a caster (bards especially) comes from controlling the flow of the fights.

I'd give treantmonks guide to god wizards a read, wizard based guide but the views are still the same

Not sure what kind of combat you like but

Fighter 4 battle master and valor bard is lots of fun

Distracting strike along with the valor bard inspiration

Or with a little effort
Bardic inspire before a fight , then distracting strike, commanding strike (if u have extra attack)
This with a rogue or a pally is really nice



I also love lore bards for how flexible they are with what you wanna do


I really enjoy lore bard mastermind

Use bonus actions for help
Use reactions for cutting words
Use action for bow and sneak attack
Or casting supportive spells

Elemental weapon is great to put on fighter pre action surge

Crusaders mantle - nice party buff if against undead or other vulnerable parties

You also have the supportive spells of haste and enhance ability

Enhance ability is nice for granting advantage to a party member while helping another



At level 6 my general 2 go to spells for the magical secrets are
Enlarge/reduce. Having both a buff or debuff in one is great, put on fighter pre action surge or on a barb so they dont have to reckless

Lightning arrow, I like this because sharpshooter and sneak attack as lightning damage is absolutely wonderful. Note only primary target takes sneak attack and sharp shooter

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

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Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

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I love synaptic static but he won't have it for a while, and there are lots of other things to do with those level 5 slots.

The other bonus action we forgot for bards is healing word; that might affect the decision to take spiritual weapon.

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Originally Posted by BarneyBent

Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.

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Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.

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Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch

Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.

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(1) I absolutely agree that scouting partners are vital. I've seen too many Lore Bards caught by surprise when sneaking around on their own; it's valuable to to have a Shadow Monk buddy or someone who can pick you up when you're stunned and teleport you to safety (or just carry you if the DM rules Shadow Step doesn't work on creatures you're carrying, but in the cases I witnessed I was the DM and I didn't rule that way).

(2) Even if you get caught mid-infiltration, you can still Hide. Cunning Action (Hide) is nice if you want to do something offensive and also Hide, but even just regular Action: Hide works well when you've got +10ish to Stealth from Expertise.

(3) However, if scouting is working okay, then IME BI tends to be overkill because you'll clean the bad guys' clocks anyway unless it's a non-average (uber-deadly) encounter. No harm in handing them out I guess but it tends not to happen IME because it just evaporates after 10 minutes without ever being used. BI is mostly useful when things turn out to be non-average combats, unexpectedly difficult for various reasons including scouting failure. Maybe this is a playstyle thing that would work differently at other tables, and if so maybe Spiritual Weapon would be a more attractive pick at those tables.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.

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This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.

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Originally Posted by Guy Lombard-O

This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.

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Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.

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Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.

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Originally Posted by Skylivedk

Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.

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They don't compete for the same resource (invocation vs. feat) so you could take both.

Edit: oh! You meant Inspiring Leader instead of Tough. Sorry, I get it now. Completely agree, Inspiring Leader >> Tough.

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Originally Posted by Willie the Duck

It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

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As for the build, here's what the character would look like. We're using a set stat-block for our stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, & 10. We are allowed to start with one +1 item, so I think I'll go with +1 half-plate armor and a normal shield as well as a longsword as I'll be starting off as a Hexblade:

STR: 10, DEX: 16, CON: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 20

Initiative: 4, AC 20, Prof Bonus: +3 Speed: 30 HP: 67, Background: Urban Bonty Hunter (for more social skills)

Leveling: Lvls 1 and 2: Hexblade, lvels 3 - 8: Lpre Bard.

Eldritch Evocations: Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear (for added range as many fights have been outdoors and we've had a few foes try to flee on us. (might re-train to Improved Pact Weapon for a boost to accuracy if I get to warlock 3 and take Pact of the blade, or switch to Lance of Lethargy to make it harder for foes to reach me)

Skill Prof: Athletics, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception *double prof), Intimidation, Persuasion (double prof).

Gear: +1 half-plate armor, Shield, Longsword (hexblade effect to use charisma instead of strength)

Warlock: 2 cantrips: Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade (in case I have to be in melee)
2 Lv. 1 spell slots, 3 spells known: Hex, Shield, and Arms of Hadar

Bard: 3 cantrips: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation and Vicious Mockery

4 lv. 1 spell slots, 3 each of lv. 2 and 3 spell slots:
Spells known: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Phantasmal Force, Shatter; Additional Magic Secrets: Spiritual Weapon and Fireball.

I know it's not the most optimal spell list, but these are spells I understand the workings of (mostly) and it would let me do more damage. I'd mostly be attacking with EB from range to minimize the risk of taking damage and using SW for a third attack per turn.

Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.

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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.

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I don't expect to be doing tons of damage. I just want to be able to do some damage while using the bard's out-of-combat abilities with his vast array of skills so I'm not waiting for the next battle like I am with my current character (a barb/fighter). I might swap in another social spell or two, but my real limitation is in not being creative enough to make good use of the 'head game' spells. I also don't really like save-or-suck spells as the monsters tend to have high stats, so I want to be doing at least a little damage per turn rather than casting a spell only to have the foes save on their saving throws and there's no result on a save. It feels like a complete waste of time to me to go that route. I also tend to have bad luck with those kind of spells as a player, so I'd rather do have damage on a save whenever possible or have a spell that lets you try again with the same spell usage on a following turn.

Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

L3: AM Secrets: Fireball

My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.

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Originally Posted by holywhippet

My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.

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In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

L3: AM Secrets: Fireball

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Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?

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Originally Posted by Potato_Priest

Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?

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Ah, yeah, it is. Thanks for catching that.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.

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I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.

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Originally Posted by holywhippet

I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.

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Well we also had the creatures all take their turn together right after the summoner did so initiative wasn't broken up too much.

Bards can do basically everything. Their draw is that they have so much potential.

Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.

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Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.

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I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.

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Originally Posted by samcifer

I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.

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If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.

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Originally Posted by MaxWilson

If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.

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I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).

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Originally Posted by samcifer

I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).

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Whoever told you that only demons and celestials have good Cha saves is wrong. Cha is a very common saving throw proficiency for big monsters, and monsters with strong Con saves often have strong Cha saves too, so against a big monsters like an Efreet, Beholder, or Adult Red Dragon both Bane and Blindness/Deafness are inferior to Web (though Web has other potential issues against flying or teleporting enemies). For example, an Adult Red Dragon saves at +11 vs. Cha spells, and +13 vs. Con spells, but only +6 vs. Dex spells. An Efreet is +7 vs. Cha, +7 vs. Con, +1 vs. Dex. A Beholder saves at +8 vs. Cha, +4 vs. Con, +2 vs. Dex.

Oddly enough, Pit Fiends don't have Cha save proficiency, so Bane is actually kind of decent against them, if you don't have a better use for your concentration (like Banishment).