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Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
The Voice of Mod: Since people are starting to get their SoD preorders, I'm separating the Start of Darkness thread into two: one for discussion of the content, and one for discussion of ordering.
Please, please, PLEASE mark all spoilers for SoD in this thread! By that, we mean any information about the plot that is not common knowledge (i.e. it involves Redcloak and Xykon meeting). You can put general comments about how it made you feel, whether you liked it or not, etc., outside of spoiler tags.
For the uninformed, to use the spoiler function, do this:
[spoiler]Spoiler text goes here.[/spoiler ]
Without the space in the final tag. It looks like this:
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Spoiler text goes here.
If you have trouble figuring it out, you can Quote this post and just look at how I did it.
Also, if you're reading this thread and haven't read SoD yet, you should assume that all spoilers in this thread are FOR SoD - so don't click on them!! If you ruin it for yourself, you have only you to blame!
Thank you.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
:xykon: Barky! You came back!
And much hilarity ensued.
While Xykon was a hoot, it was very interesting to watch Redcloak's character development. This story really is mostly about him, and it does answer many of the questions that have been raised about his motivations. I predict much additional fodder for the "is he justified in being evil" threads.
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Okay, so now we know Xykon has a ring that makes him specifically immune to certain types of positive energy attacks. Does that mean that Roy's plan to use disruption against him in the Dungeon of Dorukan was doubly doomed to failure?
Also, I wonder if his little soul gem willl come into play at some point. It's just too good a plot device to leave dangling...
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.
Also, I'd just like to say that the joke at the bottom of page 91 really hit me in the face cause, well... **points to sig**
I wonder what Redcloak and Xykon's real names are...
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
BardicLasher
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Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.
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If true, it would be horribly anticlimactic. Obviously, the whole history of the Gates wasn't written at that point, so it's a bit unfair to engage in revisionism, but wouldn't the OotS at least have found his ring in the dungeon loot? They did find the ring of wizardry, after all. Maybe he left the gem in his other robes...
But the question of what happened/will happen to the other members of the Order of the Scribble just got a giant leap forward, and it would be a shame to see it go unresolved.
And yes, that bit in the book does make your signature horribly ironic. Gotta love those crossover gags.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
OK, this book was fantastic. It had everything: it was funny, it was dramatic, it was informative. This is, I think, the best comic I've read in years.
I thought it was much better than On the Origin of PCs, too. Maybe less over-the-top comedy, but a much better story. Every scene leads up to that finale, giving you little pieces to show how the characters turn from one thing into another...wow.
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Originally Posted by
BardicLasher
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Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.
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I think its clear that, whether or not Xykon still has it, the two of them are still trapped in the gem. It answers the question, "Why not just rebuild the Gates?" too perfectly. Answer: Because the only two people who know how are dead and can't even be resurrected.
Besides, too much time is spent on it for it to be undone off-panel. It'll be back again someday.
Also, it really puts this comic into perspective...
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because when I first read the part about Redcloak's extended lifespan, I thought, "Huh, why did he rant at Miko about being natural? He's as magically-altered as she is!" Then I got to the end, and realized that she touched a nerve: Redcloak feels guilty about his extended lifespan because it reminds him of Right-Eye, who didn't have it. That little tirade was his emotional reaction to remembering what he did (which I won't even say in a spoiler, it's just too important).
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
unfortunately my answer about Xykon is a spoiler
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Xykon tend to misplace things all the time. I presume that the gem is probably in another robe anyways or something :)
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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That was strange, I didn't expect arrogance to be the deciding factor in Xykon vs. Dorukon. Esp. considering what was at stake...
Edit: Oof... I'll never be able to laugh at Redcloak ever again. I mean heck everything he's done even the funny "ebil" moments was a form of overcompensation to prove to himself and Xykon he's not a bitch, and to show that all he's worked for isn't in vain.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Just got it an hour ago, and I just finished the color insert. Let me just say, holy crap this book is awesome.
Thank you, Rich.
EDIT: Just finished it. Holy crap.
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My god, I don't even know where to begin. Poor Redcloak. Poor goblins in general. And goddamn Xykon. And...god.
The "butch and bitch" line was probably the cruelist, most heart-jerking thing I've ever read. God, this book was unbelievably awesome. Mein gott. I need to go read it again.
Oh, and I think we know how the MitD will finally be revealed, now. I hope Redcloak will still be able to win, but...I think Xykon's officially proven himself to be THE Big Bad Guy.
This was just awesome.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Panel 9 on page 8 gave me goosebumps.
Pure awesome, Rich. Pure awesome.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Did anyone else notice that Right-Eye is included in the board game?
Sort of, anyway. The Goblin Woodcutter card, with the axe, lace-up shirt and eyepatch. Of course, Rich gave him his foot back.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Fitzclowningham
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Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.
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Well, Xykon has said that it's just a mundane crown that he thought looked really cool (and apparently enables him to pick up barmaids).
Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.
:redcloak: No, I AM YOUR UNCLE!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
malakim2099
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Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.
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I was trying to figure out a way it could be Haley - polymorphed, I guess - but it's only been 3 years, so I call that unlikely at best.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
A few other observations...
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The intro was a thing of beauty, I think I laughed harder reading that than almost any other part of the book. And I did like that the first comic lets you know that yes, even at the age of eight or so, Xykon was an evil little bastard.
The S-Men were great, too. :smallamused:
Regarding Redcloak... yeah, I almost think he could have been LN. But I think the Dark One (gee, what a name for such an allegedly altruistic figure) has had a bit of whitewash on his own past too. I'm almost tempted to try and make him into an actual deity, with Domains and everything. Either that or Redcloak is a Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana, which would account for the fact he never packs weapons, never wears armor, and relies heavily on spells. Oh, and he has insane levels of all knowledges.
And while Redcloak is a sympathetic figure of sorts... Xykon never is, ever. At best, you look at him like you would at Belkar doing something crazy evil yet twistedly funny. At worst, he's someone that I know my cleric of Pelor would like to introduce to a +5 holy sacred burst heavy mace. :smalltongue:
I did like that he was dim enough not to realize that trapping Lirian and Dorukan forever together is... actually /not/ a bad thing, to them.
I do hope that they show up again too, as well as Right-Eye's daughter. And it was also good to see why Roy grew up the way he did... Eugene was pretty much a D- as a father, I'm sorry to say. No wonder he grew up with issues.
But you know, for being a nigh-epic level elven druid, Lirian needed to work on the lore department. Surely she would know some BASIC things about undead... like, don't bother poisoning them, etc. Ah well.
And, frankly, I think I liked this line best...
:roach: It's just like if Nelson Mandela knew necromancy.
Peace!
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Fitzclowningham
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Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.
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But in the battle with Roy he claimed that he only has it to make himself look more badass. Of course, he could be lying. Why didn't the OOTS try to find out what it does?
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fitzclowningham
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Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.
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Why does it have to be the crown? A Cloak of Charisma is a fairly standard magic item, and Xykon wears a cloak. Heck, he even doesn't get the cloak until he's old, supporting the idea that he scored it while levelling up.
A lich gets +2 Cha, so all he would need was a 26 Cha; an 18 plus increases at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 would give him a 23, so he would only need +6, which is well within the range of a 32,000 gp magic item.
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Originally Posted by
malakim2099
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I did like that he was dim enough not to realize that trapping Lirian and Dorukan forever together is... actually /not/ a bad thing, to them.
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I don't see it as being dim, per se, but as being completely disconnected from the idea of caring about another person. He can't conceive of wanting to be with someone in that way; it's an even further contrast with Right-Eye (who loves his family deeply), with Redcloak wavering between the two viewpoints.
I imagine Xykon laughing to himself that he's forcing them to spend eternity together, because to him, other people are either tools to be used or annoyances to be killed.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
BardicLasher
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Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.
Except that...
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The Snarl totally destroys souls. If it broke when(if?) it went into the gate then it seems like there's a good chance that Dorukan and Lirian were utterly destroyed.
I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
One Skunk Todd
Except that...
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I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.
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He backpacked across Europe. You know, to really find himself.
In all seriousness, he probably went off to find and kill Serini Toormuck, since he ended up with her diary. I get the feeling that Xykon is going to turn out to be responsible for the disappearance and/or death of the entire Order of the Scribble.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
One Skunk Todd
Except that...
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The Snarl totally destroys souls. If it broke when(if?) it went into the gate then it seems like there's a good chance that Dorukan and Lirian were utterly destroyed.
I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.
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Unless state otherwise, all items in the comic exist until it is told that is destroyed. That is how I view it. Since no one mention the soul gem, I'm sure Xykon still have it on him and somehow manage avoid being damage
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
chibibar
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Unless state otherwise, all items in the comic exist until it is told that is destroyed. That is how I view it. Since no one mention the soul gem, I'm sure Xykon still have it on him and somehow manage avoid being damage
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Or... Haley found a huge black gem and couldn't bring herself to share it with the group?
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Oooh, good point. It's got to be worth at least 30-40,000 gp.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Good read, all told. I got my copy yesterday, and I had a bunch of other stuff to do, so I had to squeeze the reading in where I could. That said, it's spoileriffic.
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I think it's great that human Xykon seemed potentially redeemable, though almost certainly would not (because he wouldn't put the effort into it), but as soon as he becomes a lich, he becomes extra vicious (as well as noticeably smarter). This particularly stands out when they get ahold of the Creature in the Darkness, and Xykon has a contingency plan for if Redcloak ever betrays him.
It also stood out that Redcloak isn't really a bad guy, he's just trying to stop having his people being taken advantage of. Perhaps in my next campaign world, goblins won't be evil.
Also, did Xykon's reaction to finding out he couldn't taste coffee any more remind anyone else of
Metallo?
The "Redcloak and Right-Eye" running gag was hilarious, though I'd really like to know Right-Eye, Redcloak's, and, most of all, Xykon's real names. I suspect those are going to play a major plot point sometime down the line.
I also suspect that we're going to see a resurrected Order of the Scribble ally with the Order of the Stick.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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This is Delta-Upsilon-Mu??
I just got that. Arrrggggghhhh what a horrible pun! :smallyuk:
I loved it. :smalltongue:
Oh, I figured out that the elephant was supposed to be Dumbo right away. But the Call Identifier that the mouse gave? Didn't get that one until right now.
Glad to see you are keeping up your penchant for awful puns, Rich. :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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as you say ...as well as noticeably smarter...
That was the single most interesting change when he turned lich. He went from rather mundane, rather foilable to very interesting, really hard to beat.
And it really was a very hard cut from the moment hes a lich.
I really wanted redcloak's deception to become apparent (that the snarl wouldn't be their tool but the dark ones.) I guess it keeps them together and keeps redcloak motivated but I was hoping for something more. I suppose it could be well known to xykon and he isn't letting on.
I also wanted to see them try and preform their ritual on Dorukan's gate or at least show them discovering that its locked down with the seal. though I guess its not necessary
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Poeir
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Also, did Xykon's reaction to finding out he couldn't taste coffee any more remind anyone else of
Metallo?
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Hell yeah, it did! And that's awesome. Animated Superman's Metallo was an extremely compelling villain because of that, and it really makes Xykon even better. I mean, of course he went from "dumb and evil, but basically sane" to "outright friggin' psycho" after that! Guh. Just thinking about being totally numb like that gives me the chills.
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I also suspect that we're going to see a resurrected Order of the Scribble ally with the Order of the Stick.
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Yeah, I think we'll eventually get a broken crystal and some angry, epic-level heroes. Not for awhile, though...I think we'll see an Order of the Scrible-centered book before that happens.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
[NOTE::: This post does not pussyfoot around. It contains Major, MAJOR spoilers for Start of Darkness. HP6 ending level spoilers.
You. Have. Been. Warned. :smalltongue:
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Am I the only one....
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Who isn't exactly feeling all awful for Redcloak at the end of the book? I only ask because I hear a lot of, "Poor Redcloak" or "Awww, I'm so rooting for Redcloak after what he went through in this book."
Well excuse me for not being all twisted in knots over a character who just frigging killed his OWN BROTHER. And for what? Because he is so blinded by his God's Plan that he can't think straight anymore. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm reminded of a certain character: :miko:
That's right. What Redcloak does in SoD is absolutely no different that what Miko does to Lord Shojo. Actually, that's not correct. What Redcloak does to Right-Eye is worse than what Miko did to Lord Shojo. At least Miko can claim to be bat<blank> crazy. Redcloak? He doesn't get that excuse. He committed murder with his eyes wide open.
And all of this for a god that, as Right-Eye points out, isn't really doing his utmost to help the Goblin People. In fact, Right-Eye did far more to help The Goblin Cause that Redcloak ever did.
Now please understand, I'm not trying to dump on Redcloak here. And I do feel sympathy at this plight. And I also hope he one day grows enough of a spine to be more like his brother. But I just want to make sure that in all of the sympathy we're pouring on Redcloak that we actually remember that he did all of this of his own free will.
As I said in the original thread, Redcloak is the Classical Greek Tragic Figure. He is blinded by (a quite justifiable) hatred and it leads him to make mistakes. And once he makes these mistakes, he compounds them because he is afraid to face up to them, rather than taking the harder road of admitting error (again, like a certain ex-Paladin we all know). And it doesn't help that the only person that he associates with regularly is one of the most evil people to ever grace the comic.
But make no mistake. All of Redcloak's sins are his own darn fault.
Fortunately for him, he has shown the glimmer of self-realization. If he can actually continue to grow (like we saw in the Siege of Azure City Arc), then perhaps he can actually face his own fear and become a better goblin for it. But until he learns to let go of his hatred of humans, and focus on the betterment of the Goblin Species for the right reasons, I fear that he will continue to make the wrong choices.
Now all of this being said, I do feel some sympathy for Redcloak. And I do hope he can pull his head out of his butt. But I feel we should remember two things. 1) Just because Redcloak is better in comparison to Xykon, it doesn't necessarily make him a good person. And, 2) we should probably save our greatest amount of sympathy for Right-Eye, who, while he committed great evil in his life, was actually strong enough to change and to try and make the world a better place.
ETA:::::
I do realize, BTW, that one major difference between Redcloak and Miko is that Redcloak felt really bad about murdering his own brother after he did it, while Miko was spouting rationaizations. Well, cry me a river, Redcloak, but that doesn't make it all better in my book. :smalltongue: Oh sure, it's a good thing that Redcloak realizes That He Messed Up. But I notice that he didn't exactly fix the problem while he could. :smallwink:
So while he the fact that he Feels Bad About Everything counts for a little something, it doesn't mean a whole heck of a in the Grand Scheme of Things. Unless, of course, it's used as a plot in the future to change Redcloak. Till then, I ain't going to cut him that much slack over the fact that he, unlike Miko, he feels bad about the whole thing.
Just some food for thought. :smallsmile:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Porthos, Redcloak goes down in the next to last comic, in the act of betraying Xykon. It has to happen.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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I'm not sure Redcloak *does* do everything of his own free will. Note that right after he puts on the Crimson Mantle, he immediately begins focusing on the Plan, almost as though he's under some sort of mind control. Perhaps pre-Redcloak doesn't even exist any more.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Poeir
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I'm not sure Redcloak *does* do everything of his own free will. Note that right after he puts on the Crimson Mantle, he immediately begins focusing on the Plan, almost as though he's under some sort of mind control. Perhaps pre-Redcloak doesn't even exist any more.
[Response still contains the MAJOR SPOILERS I referenced earlier]
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That's an interesting thought, and one I thought about as well. You can see The Dark One speaking through Redcloak for first couple of panels after he puts on the Cloak at least. :smallsmile:
I think, however, this is a lot closer to Redcloak just being very, very convinced of the rightness of The Dark One's Cause. Almost to the point of brainwashing really. After all, Redcloak was in a very fragile state of mind when The Dark One hit the Download Button. And so one could see why he would latch onto that vision for strength and stability.
Still, I think there have been enough instances of Redcloak showing a conscience (remember his half-hearted vows to Raise Right-Eye or his decision to settle down with Right-Eye and abandon The Plan before Xykon showed up and ruined everything) that I don't believe that The Dark One is controlling his every thought and deed. Instead, I think Xykon was right. Redcloak was (at the time) too much of a coward to face up to his mistakes.
In many ways, Redcloak has built his entire life around The Plan. It takes a lot to put aside your life's work and decide to move in another direction. I guess we would find out if Redcloak ever tried to do something that The Dark One really disapproved. Would Redcloak even be allowed to do it? Would The Dark God deliver a Twelve Gods Style Smackdown? Or would the cloak even try to strangle him?
I hope we actually get to find out, coz that might show some potential for Redcloak's Redemption. :smallwink:
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After all, now that Miko's dead, we need to find another character to latch on Redemption-wise! :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Porthos
[Response still contains the MAJOR SPOILERS I referenced earlier]
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Still, I think there have been enough instances of Redcloak showing a conscience (remember his half-hearted vows to Raise Right-Eye or his decision to settle down with Right-Eye and abandon The Plan before Xykon showed up and ruined everything) that I don't believe that The Dark One is controlling his every thought and deed. Instead, I think Xykon was right. Redcloak was (at the time) too much of a coward to face up to his mistakes.
In many ways, Redcloak has built his entire life around The Plan. It takes a lot to put aside your life's work and decide to move in another direction. I guess we would find out if Redcloak ever tried to do something that The Dark One really disapproved. Would Redcloak even be allowed to do it? Would The Dark God deliver a Twelve Gods Style Smackdown? Or would the cloak even try to strangle him?
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Well, see, here's the thing. I think Redcloak was on the verge, when he was settling down with Right-Eye and his family before Xykon showed up, of really inching back up to LN. Which, in game terms, means about nothing since The Dark One is (presumably) a LE deity, so you can be LN and follow him without penalty. And he is following the Dark One's overall goal of improving life for the goblin race. Just doing it by raising a family and starting a thriving non-cannon fodder community of goblins to maybe start a lasting society.
Besides, the Dark One is a deity. He thinks in the long term of centuries... and his end goal is not necessarily "Channeling the Snarl to Blackmail other gods", it is "Improving the lot of the goblin race". Allegedly. If Redcloak and others can do that without using the Snarl at all, then that's fine. As long as the goal is achieved, he probably wouldn't exactly care how they got there.
Now, Xykon, of course, is going to have some issues with that... :smallamused:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
malakim2099
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Well, see, here's the thing. I think Redcloak was on the verge, when he was settling down with Right-Eye and his family before Xykon showed up, of really inching back up to LN. Which, in game terms, means about nothing since The Dark One is (presumably) a LE deity, so you can be LN and follow him without penalty. And he is following the Dark One's overall goal of improving life for the goblin race. Just doing it by raising a family and starting a thriving non-cannon fodder community of goblins to maybe start a lasting society.
Besides, the Dark One is a deity. He thinks in the long term of centuries... and his end goal is not necessarily "Channeling the Snarl to Blackmail other gods", it is "Improving the lot of the goblin race". Allegedly. If Redcloak and others can do that without using the Snarl at all, then that's fine. As long as the goal is achieved, he probably wouldn't exactly care how they got there.
Now, Xykon, of course, is going to have some issues with that... :smallamused:
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I guess it all comes down to how bitter The Dark One is over the little "prank" the humans pulled on him. :smalltongue: But, overall I agree with your points. The real problem is, outside of the extremely self-serving "history" that Right-Eye and Redcloak told us, we really know very little about The Dark One. And we certainly know nothing about him from a Third Person Omniscient Narrator viewpoint. So it is certainly possible that The Dark One would take the longer view and let Redcloak "build up" the goblins instead of "tearing down" the others. Or he might pull a huge hissy fit. We really don't know.
As for the LN point, I agree whole-heartedly. I think Redcloak really was on the verge of changing his whole philosophical viewpoint (which can lead to an alignment change). It's also obvious that, by this time, Right-Eye had shifted to LN, and a serious case could be made for the idea that he shifted to LG by the time he attacked Xykon.
Going back to Redcloak and him thinking about settling down, it really is quite interesting, from a narrative viewpoint, that Xykon decided to show up and stick the proverbial knife in Redcloak's back when he did. It's almost as if Xykon was watching Redcloak's life and saying to himself, "OK. Now when would be the most awful, gut-wrenching time I could reappear and wreck Redcloak's life?
Now??? No, not yet.
<<Checks back later>>>
Now? neyt.
<<<See's Redcloak's about to settle down>>>
Ah yes.... Now's the time. Teleport.
Man. If Xykon had done something like that, just to screw over Redcloak.... It would be. Oh what's the word I'm looking for? Oh yes.... Evil. :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Porthos
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It's also obvious that, by this time, Right-Eye had shifted to LN, and a serious case could be made for the idea that he shifted to LG by the time he attacked Xykon.
Actually, not to get into an alignment discussion, but...
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Right-Eye doesn't strike me as being at all Lawful. His primary traits are:
• He's impatient, often defying Redcloak's instructions because he got bored.
• He suggests breaking the deal with Xykon rather than turning him into a lich.
• He's willing to just leave the situation when it gets out of hand.
• He turns on his supposed leader and trys to kill him when leaving doesn't work.
Plus, the only evil things he ever does are to associate with Evil people and fight Good people. And even then, he turns on Evil in the middle of the book when he tries to provide Eugene Greenhilt (a Lawful Good character) with the ability to kill Xykon.
I would say Right-Eye is True Neutral, honestly. He cares about those close to him, but has no deep commitment to philosophical ideals. He is willing to drop them when necessary (he changes his mind several times). He may trend towards Neutral Good at the end, but I don't think so: he still is only caring about protecting the goblins, not saving the world from Xykon's Evil.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
SPoD
Actually, not to get into an alignment discussion, but...
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And all good points. I must admit I posted that very late last night and really wasn't thinking much about it. I was focusing much more on the E/N/G angle than the C/N/L angle (and a compare-n-contrast with Recloak). You are, of course, entirely right about the non-Lawfulness of Right-Eye.
Thank you for the much needed correction. :smallsmile:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.
No spoilers I can spot in that, . Anyway, the reason they couldn't do anything with the gate was cos of the wards. They hadn't gotten thru them, and that was what was killing the goblins.
EDIT: hah! Ninjad the ninja ;)
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaius_Maximus
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After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.
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Because Xykon and Redcloak were trying to
pass the protections [i.e. that big glowing rune] that Durorkan put on the gate, and not get at the gate itself. :smallsmile: And he was sending in Random Mooks to try and destroy/infulence the protections
because he was bored.
After all, all the rituals the world won't help you if you can't actually influence the silly thing. :smallsmile:
Besides, do you
really think Xykon would care if a couple of Random Mooks got eaten by the Snarl? Heck, if that meant the protections that Durorkan put up were taken away, he'd consider that a freebie. :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
I'm not sure whether this part qualifies as spoilers. Better safe than sorry, but it should be okay:
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I'll second those arguments saying that this book made me less, not more, sympathetic to Redcloak's point-of-view. I pity him, but I'm not rooting for him unless I see some serious desire for redemption.
I really did like his brother, though. Definitely more neutral than evil throughout. Maybe even trending good.
The next part definitely contains spoilers:
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I also want to see more of the two unresolved plot threads: the soul gem and Right-eye's daughter. I agree that it'd be really interesting if the daughter was Haley, but that would require some horrendously complex explanations, considering things like
this. As for the soul gem, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it had somehow ended up in Haley's hands, or even Elan's--who, while not a thief, is too curious for his
own good.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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I'm not sure that the soul gem is really an unresolved plot thread. I think that is perfectly resolved. I would be surprised if the soul gem ever shows up again.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Mechafox
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I'm not sure that the soul gem is really an unresolved plot thread. I think that is perfectly resolved. I would be surprised if the soul gem ever shows up again.
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Really? I admit that my OotS prediction record is like 3-592, but I'd be kind of disappointed if it didn't return, if only so the Order could interact with Dorukan and Lirian for a bit and learn more about the gates.
Oh, and a few miscellaneous things I noticed/thought about on my second read-through:
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1) Page 90, bottom row, panels 2 & 3: am I crazy, or are the Strength scores/modifiers listed there wrong? 17 should be +3, not +4...either that, or every GM I've ever had since 3.0 came out is an evil, evil liar.
2) Page 78, bottom row, panel two. Hey! Adventurers! One of 'em looks familiar...let's check page 56 in Origins... Helmet Dude! From the very first panel on 56. He's sittin' at the leftmost table, all by his lonesome. Poor Helmet Dude. He must be gettin' old...what race do you suppose he is, to still be adventuring 21 years later?
3) Not a specific easter egg or anything, but it (surprisingly) hasn't been discussed. Lirian's Gate didn't explode when destroyed! I'd say that settles one particular argument. The gates don't explode when broken just because of the powerful magic that went into them; obviously, Dorukan and Soon both enchanted theirs to make a big kablooey (and seal the rift) in case of emergency.
4) On the same note, Lirian's rift is still there. That's probably bad (though the elves do have plenty of druids and wizards to fix it up, if they can figure out how).
5) I wonder if the Unholy Master, Yydranna, or Keith Baker will show up again?
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
malakim2099
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Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.
I'm sure she will, but I really honestly hope she never does and has a nice peaceful boring life somewhere.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
I love the posts that say "Actually..." [SPOILER] and what not. I'm sure this thread will be a lot less funny once I actually read SoD...
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
TheNovak
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3) Not a specific easter egg or anything, but it (surprisingly) hasn't been discussed. Lirian's Gate didn't explode when destroyed! I'd say that settles one particular argument. The gates don't explode when broken just because of the powerful magic that went into them; obviously, Dorukan and Soon both enchanted theirs to make a big kablooey (and seal the rift) in case of emergency.
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I'd like to know why the gate wasn't fireproofed. You'd think a place with an epic druid, and a smoky the bear parody would've made sure a freak thunder storm, or any random fire wouldn't wipe out a pillar of reality.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
WarriorTribble
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I'd like to know why the gate wasn't fireproofed. You'd think a place with an epic druid, and a smoky the bear parody would've made sure a freak thunder storm, or any random fire wouldn't wipe out a pillar of reality.
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It wasn't a fire, it was the support-treants running in the opposite direction and pulling the gate apart.
Speculation in addition to actual spoilers:
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What would happen if Tsukiko discovered the Plan, which requires both an arcanist and a divine caster, of which she is both? Would she try to steal the Crimson Mantle from Redcloak with the intent to control the Snarl for herself, only to discover that it doesn't work like Xykon thinks it does and report him? Would she approach Redcloak(unlikely, given their current relationship, but if she starts to hate Xykon enough, it could happen) about replacing Xykon as the arcanist, which, given his recent character development, might give him enough spine to face the truth about Right-eye's death(giving us a cliffhanger where he just yells "True Ressurection!")?
For that matter, what would happen if the OOTS kills Redcloak, and one of the good-aligned members puts the Mantle on? Particularly Vaarsuvius, since (s)he can cast Contact Other Plane to rag on the gods about their injustice. Or even if Redcloak finally faces his own cowardice and subsequently tries to tempt either V, Elan(bards are arcanists as well), or even Julia to join him(possibly by simply explaining exactly how raw a deal goblins get).
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I found the final "one gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch. Bitch" scene to be one of the most tearjerking things I've ever read(definately tragic in the Greek style, but that makes it no less tragic). I also now hate Xykon with the firey burning passion of ten thousand burning suns. Which burn. With flames. The flames are also on fire(cookie if you know who I stole that from). I can't help but laugh at him sometimes, though(Heeere, wizard wizard wizard!). Finally, if he himself could be convinced that it's possible, I would love for Redcloak to be redeemed.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Winged One
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It wasn't a fire, it was the support-treants running in teh opposite direction and pulling the gate apart.
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After looking at the book again you are correct, the fire was only a catalyst, not the direct cause for the gate's destruction. I still think the whole trees should've been fireproofed notion stands however especially when you're dealing with a species with arsonphobia.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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They might have been treated with Resist Fire, but simply still been afraid of it enough to panic like that.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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If a creature has fire resistience do they still burn? I've no idea don't play D&D, but I imagine a mundane fire that requires fuel to continue burning would stop. Still, it's really strange to see such a... basic weakness in that gate. Like I mentioned before a bad thunderstorm could've destroyed the gate which is just bad design. Then again Rich does imply that the
gates were shoddily made I guess.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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A creature with fire resistance 6 or higher, which is less than the minimum that the lowest-level fire resistance spell on the books can provide, can literally walk around all day while on fire and take no damage, but treants are likely to have a severe phobia of it(with good reason), and panic even when in no danger from it. Much like a clausterphobic person will panic if in an enclosed space even though they aren't in any danger other than that they put themselves in by panicing.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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That all true, but it doesn't negate the whole "gate is shoddily built" argument. Heck I'm sure we could come up with a plausible explaination for why the gate was built with such fatal flaws, (ooh... that reminds me of my trekkie days :smallsmile: ) but I'm going to go with what we've seen so far. The two trees should've been immoblized, made immune to irrational fears, or both.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Opinion that might need to be spoilered.
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I both liked and disliked this book. First, to the writer, this cartoon is outstanding in it's content and (surprisingly for a cartoon, from my point of view) emotional content.
Here is what I liked. I liked the finding out the background, I liked the development of the characters (though see further), and I liked the humor.
But here is what I didn't like. Xykon was too evil, and in the end, Redcloak was too broken in spirit and hopeless. I have grown to like Redcloak, I empathize (sp?) with his character. but in the end, with Redcloak being made a complete slave, broken of spirit and hopeless, a corrupted (in action) betrayor of his ideals, it left a poor feeling which detracted from the story. I understand, it's not supposed to be a happy story with puppies and unicorns, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be so negative in feeling that it overshadows the whole story.
It makes me think of the story "Bluebeard". A story which (depending upon the version you read) ends so horribly that you are clear there are no happy endings. A woman is married to a lord who demands she never, ever, enters a certain room, but otherwise she lives in wealth and luxury. Eventually curiosity overcomes her, she goes in, and sees the heads of all of Bluebeard's previous wives on stakes. He explains that, sorry, he "loves" her, but since she disobeyed him, alas, she will now die for her disobedience, and her head will join the others. Now, that's evil, but you never see why he is so evil.
You feel the horror and terror of the woman at the end, but you don't look at the story a month later and say "hmm, nope, that story is a downer". This is because it is a physical evil, not a description of the decay of human spirit.
However, the end of Start of Darkness is.
This is both a complement and a criticism to the writer. It truly showed me the evil that Xykon is. That doesn't happen to me very often. It is also a comic and a story meant to entertain, and knowing that evil detracts from the entertainment, personally.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Giant
Also, if you're reading this thread and haven't read SoD yet, you should assume that all spoilers in this thread are FOR SoD - so don't click on them!! If you ruin it for yourself, you have only you to blame!
I pick up a book because I enjoy reading it, not to look up information on a fictional universe. I will read all the spoilers I want.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winged One
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For that matter, what would happen if the OOTS kills Redcloak, and one of the good-aligned members puts the Mantle on? Particularly Vaarsuvius, since (s)he can cast Contact Other Plane to rag on the gods about their injustice. Or even if Redcloak finally faces his own cowardice and subsequently tries to tempt either V, Elan(bards are arcanists as well), or even Julia to join him(possibly by simply explaining exactly how raw a deal goblins get).
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Now that you mention it, that makes a lot of sense. Remember V's prediction from the Oracle? Maybe this is how he finally achieves ultimate arcane power?
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Wow, this book was perhaps the best stretch of OOTS comics I've ever read.
The art is much better than origins and this is a much more interesting read. Granted, It isn't quite as funny as origins, but the amount of mindblowing plot points really make up for it.
Bravo.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winged One
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A creature with fire resistance 6 or higher, which is less than the minimum that the lowest-level fire resistance spell on the books can provide, can literally walk around all day while on fire and take no damage, but treants are likely to have a severe phobia of it(with good reason), and panic even when in no danger from it. Much like a clausterphobic person will panic if in an enclosed space even though they aren't in any danger other than that they put themselves in by panicing.
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Also, the treants might be smart enough to know that Flame Strike will hurt them, even if they have fire resistance.
And also, to answer the "what if the gem was annihilated when Xykon hit the gate..."
Xykon didn't hit the gate. He hit the ward OUTSIDE the gate, otherwise his soul would have been shredded instead of going back to the phylactery. So it's likely that the gem is still intact somewhere.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Man....I want this things so badly....it hurts! Alas no WOTC store near me and I can't buy it online oh woe is me! (cries)
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
So I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I'm curious: is the first statement here accurate? :smalltongue:
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Xykon didn't surprise me. About Redcloak, I don't see why people talk about redemption. He's a different kind of evil, but he's evil, always was. He is tormented but so what? I didn't like his brother (I liked the story, but I had no sympathy for him). He deserved a sad and painful demise.
They're just a bunch of evil characters, can't relate to them. Great book, and I finally got Dungeon also! I have them all! Yeah!
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
'"My Alchemical Romance"
lol
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
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Originally Posted by
Dawnstrider_Moogle
Hopefully not. It's monday, so there should be a comic update today. And Rich has been sick enough lately.
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Re: Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)
Just got it today, finished in in under an hour, and...
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...although I feel bad for Redcloak, I sincerely hope this puts any speculation that his actions might be justified to rest.