D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

Voting time!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...5#post24833915

I also updated the first post with the new representation standings, tiebreaker rules, and the future contest ideas spoiler has been renamed to contest theme pool and updated with the full list of themes I am keeping track of in a spreadsheet, including indication of which ones are not currently in the voting pool.

My entry should be considered withdrawn :(

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Originally Posted by sengmeng

My entry should be considered withdrawn :(

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Did I miss a request for that somewhere? Or are you withdrawing it as of now? It seems complete to me.

EDIT: Oh, just saw the missing 6th level feature. I'm okay with leaving it in the running since I missed it on the first passthrough and some votes are already in, but if you'd rather withdraw it still I can strike it out.

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Originally Posted by MoleMage

Did I miss a request for that somewhere? Or are you withdrawing it as of now? It seems complete to me.

EDIT: Oh, just saw the missing 6th level feature. I'm okay with leaving it in the running since I missed it on the first passthrough and some votes are already in, but if you'd rather withdraw it still I can strike it out.

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You don't have to do anything, I just thought I'd warn future voters it's not complete so as not to waste their time.

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Originally Posted by thisdude9001

1. Monk: Way of the Punchimancer sengmeng

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I'm flattered and confused

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Originally Posted by sengmeng

I'm flattered and confused

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Just a big fan of the concept. Most entrys could use more development (especially my own) so as long as the idea and general direction are in place I'm not really concerned about completeness.

3 days of voting left everyone!

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Originally Posted by noob

Why are subclasses so much more popular than base classes in 5e?

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(Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)

It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.

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Originally Posted by Damon_Tor

(Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)

It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.

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Very complete and well thought out answer, my two copper pieces to add is that making a base class means making 2 or 3 subclasses as well to go with it, plus the basic chassis will likely be even more work than that, so on top of Molemage's excellent reasoning above, it's also about five times as much work.

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Originally Posted by Damon_Tor

(Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)

It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.

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Originally Posted by sengmeng

Very complete and well thought out answer, my two copper pieces to add is that making a base class means making 2 or 3 subclasses as well to go with it, plus the basic chassis will likely be even more work than that, so on top of Molemage's excellent reasoning above, it's also about five times as much work.

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Totally agree to both. Several times I have had ideas not suitable to be developed as subclasses, but which were not rich enough to be developed as base classes with 2 or 3 dedicated subclasses.

To be honest, I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong to develop base classes with no subclasses.

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Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX

Totally agree to both. Several times I have had ideas not suitable to be developed as subclasses, but which were not rich enough to be developed as base classes with 2 or 3 dedicated subclasses.

To be honest, I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong to develop base classes with no subclasses.

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Choices are important, even if those aren't exactly subclasses.

For example, I've only ever put together one full class for 5e, a dragonborn racial class meant to recreate the experience of playing as a dragon. It didn't have subclasses per-se but it was structured loosely on the Warlock progression and you gained additional features based on your draconic ancestor at the same levels a warlock would gain patron features, a one time choice at level 3 taking the place of the pact boons, and a selection of various dragon features you can add to your body which progress at the same rate Warlocks gain their invocations. The end result of all these choices is that you could build one these guys as a melee brute or a breath-weapon nuker or even a high-charisma infiltrator even without anything that looks anything like a subclass proper.

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Originally Posted by Damon_Tor

Choices are important, even if those aren't exactly subclasses.

For example, I've only ever put together one full class for 5e, a dragonborn racial class meant to recreate the experience of playing as a dragon. It didn't have subclasses per-se but it was structured loosely on the Warlock progression and you gained additional features based on your draconic ancestor at the same levels a warlock would gain patron features, a one time choice at level 3 taking the place of the pact boons, and a selection of various dragon features you can add to your body which progress at the same rate Warlocks gain their invocations. The end result of all these choices is that you could build one these guys as a melee brute or a breath-weapon nuker or even a high-charisma infiltrator even without anything that looks anything like a subclass proper.

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You are right, but giving choices with a Fighting Style, the pick of a spell or a maneuver, or similar feature that let you choose between several effect are a thing, a subclass is completely different.

A subclass usually needs a proper flavour and/or a proper mechanic.

I don't make new classes very often myself (in fact, I've only made one and wasn't happy with it). It's for a few reasons, one is because it is so much work. You need to design a new base class that has something unique and different and then 3 subclasses to go along with it, it's just a lot and I don't want to put that much time into it. The second is that nearly all of my ideas can be achieved through the design space that already exists. With the addition of the artificer, there is a lot of different feels of classes out there and most of my flavour and ideas can be fit into what already exists.

Beyond that, I only have so many ideas. Eventually I run out of new mechanics that I can put into a character. When I am creating a subclass, I only need 2-3 new mechanics or ideas (sometimes less) and can make something unique and makes an impact. When creating a new class, I need 15 or so new ideas and that can be painful to have all of them without feeling like I am re-hashing what already exists.

TL:DR I can do what I want with the classes that already exist and I'm to lazy to make a whole new class.

Unless my math is wrong, it looks to me like Subsystems Online and I Read it in a Book are tied. If so I'm happy to swap my choice to break the tie in favor of Subsystems Online: I don't really have a strong opinion between the two.

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Originally Posted by Damon_Tor

Unless my math is wrong, it looks to me like Subsystems Online and I Read it in a Book are tied. If so I'm happy to swap my choice to break the tie in favor of Subsystems Online: I don't really have a strong opinion between the two.

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How would Subsystems Online work? We make our own sub-mechanic or borrow it from homebrewed sources? What counts as homebrew?

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Time to count up our winnings and get out of here with our borrowed class features. Other than first place, it was a tight race with three classes earning 6 and two classes earning 7 points, but that's why I codified the tiebreaker rules a couple contests back.

In 3rd place, losing the tiebreaker but earning 7 points, it's MoleMage's Circle of Spirit! Master the self, and you master all, and that applies for druids as much as for monks.

In 2nd place, winning out that same tiebreaker by dint of more 1st-place votes, also earning 7 points, it's Ilerien's Way of the Chameleon! Why borrow one class's features when you can borrow them all?

And in 1st place, winning with a staggering 12 points, nearly twice as many as any other entrant, it's Crim the Cold's Moonlighter Rogue! Turn into small, seemingly helpless animals, then use the advantage provided by your cuteness to commit crimes!

For our themes, we had a tie in total points, but Subsystems Online took the greater number of 1st place votes, so what we're going to do is this: Context XX will be Subsystem's Online, and Contest XXI will be I Read This in a Book. There won't be a voting pool for theme next voting thread, and we'll start over with a newly randomized batch of themes in the one after that.

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Voting has been called! I'll be formatting the Context XX entry thread over the next couple minutes, but I'm sure some of you have already got ideas in the works.

I did better than last time! That's good! Congrats and happy holidays!

How would subsystems work excatly? At least as you put it? Kinda like how we have the Battle Master mechanics, but we make it ourselves?

New Thread is up!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post24855423

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Originally Posted by CountDVB

I did better than last time! That's good! Congrats and happy holidays!

How would subsystems work excatly? At least as you put it? Kinda like how we have the Battle Master mechanics, but we make it ourselves?

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I got into a little more detail in the submission thread, but essentially yeah. I'd consider Battle Master maneuvers and Spellcasting to be the big "subsystems" in core play. Really any feature that can be lifted, have the stats and maybe the number known changed, and dropped on another class. When I'm thinking to myself I call them "shared mechanics" (any mechanic used by more than one class with small variations).

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Originally Posted by MoleMage

New Thread is up!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post24855423



I got into a little more detail in the submission thread, but essentially yeah. I'd consider Battle Master maneuvers and Spellcasting to be the big "subsystems" in core play. Really any feature that can be lifted, have the stats and maybe the number known changed, and dropped on another class. When I'm thinking to myself I call them "shared mechanics" (any mechanic used by more than one class with small variations).

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Would stuff from unreleased Unearthed Arcana count or no?

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Originally Posted by CountDVB

Would stuff from unreleased Unearthed Arcana count or no?

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I'll say go for it. It's not technically homebrew, but it's not published content either.

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Originally Posted by MoleMage

I'll say go for it. It's not technically homebrew, but it's not published content either.

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True, though I suppose we could ask you if something counts as viable, right?

Yeah what about Blood Hunter Mutagens or Warlock Invocations? Are those subsystems?

Cos my Artificer Specialty: Fleshwarper or Sorcerous Origin: Bloodline Infuser would be closer to them.

I feel like we're always pretty relaxed about what "counts" for meeting the theme. I'm a little worried people are going to get hung up on "choose x amount of features from this long list of features" (like spellcasting, maneuvers, infusions, invocations, etc) but that's not how I read the theme. Psi dice (both as presented in UA and in print) would be a subsystem. I would argue that a paladin's "smite" could even be considered a subsystem considering that warlocks got their own version of it.

Tipping my hand a little, I'm working on a monk subclass that can enter a "stance" which comes with bonuses and penalties. Each turn he can go deeper into his stance and the bonuses and penalties increase. That's kind of it, that's what I'm planning. The new subsystem is "stances" and in theory any subclass might have a stance or stances they can enter and deepen in the same way. Stances are mutually exclusive, and you must exit one stance before you enter another. This monk just has the one stance, but there's not a reason another monk (or fighter or rogue or whatever else) couldn't have one or more stances of their own.

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Originally Posted by Lvl45DM!

Yeah what about Blood Hunter Mutagens or Warlock Invocations? Are those subsystems?

Cos my Artificer Specialty: Fleshwarper or Sorcerous Origin: Bloodline Infuser would be closer to them.

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Yes, those are both subsystems, though the Warlock Invocations one would not be an ideal fit because the theme calls for homebrew subsystems (the Blood Hunter, though extremely widely known and used, is still technically not official content and I consider it homebrew). Damon Tor's examples are also good, Psi Dice is an excellent example (the basic mechanics work the same for all classes that use them, but the actual usage varies). Smite is one I hadn't considered but definitely fits the theme.

And as Damon Tor said, we don't really enforce theme as a matter of permissibility. If you think it fits, we accept that entry, and nobody has yet made one that was so flagrantly off-theme that we had to question it (this isn't a challenge). Many people do consider how well aligned to the theme an entry is when they are voting or giving feedback.

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Originally Posted by MoleMage

Yes, those are both subsystems, though the Warlock Invocations one would not be an ideal fit because the theme calls for homebrew subsystems (the Blood Hunter, though extremely widely known and used, is still technically not official content and I consider it homebrew). Damon Tor's examples are also good, Psi Dice is an excellent example (the basic mechanics work the same for all classes that use them, but the actual usage varies). Smite is one I hadn't considered but definitely fits the theme.

And as Damon Tor said, we don't really enforce theme as a matter of permissibility. If you think it fits, we accept that entry, and nobody has yet made one that was so flagrantly off-theme that we had to question it (this isn't a challenge). Many people do consider how well aligned to the theme an entry is when they are voting or giving feedback.

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Oh no, certainly not just taking those existing ones. If im gonna work with a subsystem then the challenge is to make a subsystem.
also holy crap, two entries already? Y'all are nerds :smalltongue: I love it.

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Originally Posted by MoleMage

Voting has been called! I'll be formatting the Context XX entry thread over the next couple minutes, but I'm sure some of you have already got ideas in the works.

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Congratulations folks!

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Originally Posted by Lvl45DM!

Oh no, certainly not just taking those existing ones. If im gonna work with a subsystem then the challenge is to make a subsystem.
also holy crap, two entries already? Y'all are nerds :smalltongue: I love it.

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At this point I'm surprised if we don't have at least one full entry by the end of the first day.

Inspired by the "Wild Card Gambit" of Legends of Runeterra: Dark Tides of Bilgewater's Wild Card Rogue (this counts as homebrew according to the D&D wikidot, so that's my justification)...

I present the Cleric's Fortune Domain, Version 1.0

Wizard Arcane Tradition – Anti-Mage

This...is the most ambitious subclass that I have ever attempted. I pretty much chopped-and-screwed one of the most iconic classes in fantasy gaming. I...really don't know if this is balanced or even how to balance it without extensive play-testing. I know that it's front-loaded, but I tried to keep multiclassing in mind. That said, I love the anti-mage trope and have been wanting to create something like this for a while, but none of the contests matched up theme-wise. Even if it needs some work, I'm proud of it and think it would be a lot of fun to play.

I like how the Atoner turned out. PEACH