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No, it will often result in a Monk who is, in fact, weaker at mid-levels and beyond. Without VoP, the Monk can at least get some gear to help him deal with flying enemies. With VoP, he can only shake his mighty fists in nigh-helpless rage as the enemies fly above him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teln
No. Vow of Poverty can actually make a Monk worse, because now they have absolutely no way to fly and absolutely no way to damage anything incorporeal. They were relying on magic items for those capabilities, and VoP does not cover them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teln
FailDM then. Monks suck horribly, but the sheer HP and damage output should have let that lvl15 example soak your entire party's damage output while taking out a PC every round or 2 (meleers in 1 round if they were in flurry range).Quote:
Originally Posted by Malevolence
I may have mentioned it upthread, but the real sad part is that Monks get the coolest PrCs.
Drunken Master - three words For Medicinal Purposes.
Tatooed Monk - mediocre flavor, but can do some neat stuff.
Fist of Zuoken - punches you so hard you time travel into the future.
sadly, their requires chassis is atrocious, and they don't give enough mechanical power to overcome the fail that is Monk.
In a game where magic items are scarce its quite good but in a Standard Magicmart it falls behind over the vast array that can be usedQuote:
Originally Posted by Teln
While true, it isn't as out there as you think. Mr. 15 Monk was actually missing somewhat reliably, and unless you're 10 feet away or less, no full attack. That really does a nice job of shoving it to beatsticks right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
I thought it was hilarious that he was obviously trying to set up a no win railroad, and it still almost failed.
Re: VoP - every time it's brought up, the first reply is 'you can't fly'. Really? So you play with jerk spellcasters who aren't casting fly, overland flight, windwalk on you? You don't have dudes with flying carpets or paladins with dragon mounts? Nothing? huh, I guess if I were playing in your campaign, I'd be stoking the fire, awaiting your return from taking out the flying badguys that happen every encounter.
My fix, which has made every monk player I've DM'd happy was to let monk weapons do monk fist damage - lots of Power Attack 2-handed quarterstaff builds with that one change alone. Most also took the ACF Decisive Strike as well, which helped with the whole move -> attack problem of flurry.
Looking at other suggestions, I like the idea of Abundant Step a per encounter ability. Basically anything that a monk can do that a swordsage can also do, should be usable as often. It'd of been nice if they'd errata'd the monk in ToB to make it more inline with the philosophy evident before the switch to 4th ed.
On the first point: Requesting that another Character give up her actions once in a while so that you can do [x] is appropriate, and fun for all, generally. Requiring that another Character give up her actions - and spells - so that you may continue to contribute to level-appropriate encounters is much less appropriate and fun for all, IMO. Add to this that the Monk is statistically going to be contributing the least to dealing with those encounters, and the other Characters have little incentive other than Playing Nice to continue to visit the largess of donated actions and spells upon you, when those actions and spells are more intelligently and efficiently spent elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoxus
On the second point: Power Attacking with less than full BAB would seem to exacerbate the issue of the Monk of Many Misses, unless there are additional parameters I'm missing.
Your Monk can't own a flying carpet, and the logic of "not owning but being the only person who rides around on it all the time" is pretty questionable. Riding in the backseat of a dragon mount makes you about as useful as a sack of grain to the fight in question. And really, are you going to run over to the Wizard and ask for a casting of Fly in the middle of a fight every time an opponent gets 10' off the ground?Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoxus
Also, a Vow of Poverty Monk can't even have a masterwork quarterstaff. They can't own Shillelagh oil, or anything to grant Greater Magic Weapon on their stuff. They have no way of even doing meaningful damage from 10' away, and the only sling or shurikens they can own must be non-magical. Yes, the Wizard in the party can cast Greater Magic Weapon... and Fly... and Magic Vestments... and Protection from Evil. However, there gets to be a point when it all becomes too silly. What is the point of Vow of Poverty if the Wizard in the party needs to spend half a dozen buffs just to bring you up to the level of the equipment you would have normally? Even the Fighter can hit ghosts and chase after dragons with his basic equipment at that level.
And yes, your fix addresses a number of problems with the Monk. It's little surprise that they work at least as well as other melee characters with that. I've actually recommended changing Ki Strike to granting enhancement bonuses to Monk weapons, which kind of gives the same benefit.
VoP just doesn't fix things. It's really quite favorable for the inexperienced player in the sense that it forces you to have things that you might not have thought to get for yourself, but the reduced flexibility and choice exposes the fact that the monk has enormous holes in its capabilities and isn't a well-rounded class. For example, the druid and the sorcerer also benefit a lot from VoP because (like the monk) they aren't gear-dependent classes, and they don't care that it doesn't grant flight... because (unlike the monk) druids and sorcerers don't need gear to fly, and can affect aerial targets just fine even when they are on the ground.
Most everybody who uses the monk homebrews a few extras sooner or later (shameless plug for my revised monk hombrew) -- the trick is in a) having enough time to do a proper job of it, and b) understanding the mechanics of the game well enough to do a proper job of it.
Funny thing, everyone suggests VoP for monks because they don't rely on weapons or armor, but the truth of it is, monks are actually MORE gear dependant than any other class. They don't have reliable sources of bonus damage like 2:1 PA, so they need gear that grants increased UAS damage, or extra Str to make up for their MAD, or other misc items to keep up. They can't wear armor, so they need to come up with that bonus somewhere. This generally takes the form of Bracers of Armor, but thats the same slot where damage boosts like Armbands of Might go. They need +wisdom, +con, +enhancement to hit, and +natural armor all from the same neck slot. How is that fair? They need items to cover the things that spells normally cover.
Without gear, monks are even more crippled than normal. Without the MIC rules for combining base items, they have to make terrible choices between defense, offense, and utility, where most other classes, its not as dramatic of a choice. The most limited class is the one that is most penalized by the itemization in the DMG, and the most penalized in a low magic setting. Its like kicking a class thats already rolling around on the floor in pain.
I've actually seen very few characters with flying items. They're usually only affordable around mid to high levels, and at that time, the wizard/sorcerer has already cast overland flight on everybody in the party, or has a couple of mass fly on hold. The efficiency of VoP depends highly on the level of optimisation and availability of magic items, but it can be an advantage, especially at lower levels.
I need some field data on VoP incarnum, but I think that might be the ideal use for that aweful feat. Their main class ability turns off magic item slots anyway, so the massive downside of the vow is mitigated. Though if you really want to make vop a more reasonable feat, kill the sacred vow requirement, infact make vop a trait rather than a feat and I would really like it.
This Overland Flight? The one with a range of Personal? Baring some Spellguard of Silverymoon shananananananananananananananananigans, that's not really possible.
Mass Fly is still a pretty solid spell.
You know, I am fully aware of how weak monks are as written (though they're also very easy to fix), that they're written for a low magic world when the rest of the rules assume high magic, and yes, a wizard with a full complement of spells would win a fight because, duh, spellcasters are designed with the idea of having to ration spells through many encounters, not just blow them all on a single battle.
That being said, I have to say I find Gnaeus's post to be a sterling example of the habit of so many 'WZZRDS RULE' folks to assume all unclear rules must always work out in the wizard's favor, and forget about anything that disproves their hypothesis. To wit:
Well, aside from the fact that Fortification protecting from a monk's stunning is a highly debatable rule interpretation (I wouldn't allow it), padded armor has a 5% spell failure chance, i.e. the same as rolling a 1 on a d20. By your own rules of engagement, wizard is not allowed to cast any spells, wizard loses right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnaeus
Also, you're assuming a highly specific magic item buy for this single fight, yet you allow thought for no magic items the monk might own. See the problem?
Well, given that it's a well-known trick the one can Dimension Door out of a grapple pretty easily, why would the monk even try when they can use Improve Disarm and take away a wizard's wand, staff, ubiquitous Headband o' Brains, or spell component pouch?Quote:
Monk wins init. 5 foot steps to wizard & full attacks. Crits 3 times (negated by armor) for average 31+ strx3 damage. Last 2 attacks are both grapples, pinning the wizard.
Oh, and your damage calculations are assuming no damage-enhancing magic (which seems unlikely) or Power Attack. If the monk just chose to attack 5 times, it's quite probable they could hand the wizard 100 damage right there.
Well, aside from decent damage additions that I mentioned above making that check a wee bit harder, you've forgotten that monks' Abundant Step ability mimics Dimension Door. Monk jumps 800 feet closer to the wizard.Quote:
Wizard casts silent Dimension Door (His concentration check should allow him to succeed on a 1), and is now 900 feet away from the monk.
Oops, make that 5 feet.Quote:
Monk full runs towards wizard. Base speed 90, we will give him run as a bonus feat and free 30 move from somewhere, monk is now 300 feet from wizard.
Oops, attack of opportunity! Just sayin'.Quote:
Wizard casts Gate.
Now here we get to the real, biggest, most obvious flaw of this whole scenario - high level monks have spell resistance (the Blasphemy effect of a Balor has a Save too, but we'll let that slide). So guess what, no spells work, and the monk kills the wizard before he knows what's happening.Quote:
Balor appears right next to monk. Wizard shouts "I order you to stand next to that guy and use Blasphemy for the next 2 minutes."
Balor uses Blasphemy for the next 20 rounds. Monk is Dazed (no save) for the next 20 rounds. 20 rounds of 5 magic missiles each kills monk.
You know, there probably are, but in a real game a wizard doesn't have time to sit and spend hours figuring out the right strategy and is just as likely to make the same kind of mistakes made above, let alone buy equipment and choose spells suited to a specific battle - especially if they're so overconfident.Quote:
I'm sure there are other ways.
Well... the assumption that you can get Fly, etc off the Wizard pretty much makes it THE class to go to.
Also, Contigency (Dim. Door) stops you flat. When in grapple, I'm out of there at once. And with Overland Flight, it's easy to say, 900' UP. Have fun running up thin air.
Couple things...
Padded Armor was probably a bad call on the person who posted it. More apt would be a Mithril Buckler of Fortification. Also, its not ambiguous...
A wizard is a creature, correct? With fortification, he's immune to critical hits, correct? What's so ambiguous?Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
Abundant Step is 1/day. Thats part of the BIGGEST flaw in the ability. Yay...1/day. Weee! If he preps more than one Dim Door, thats game. If he prepped a Teleport and went even further than the Monk's abundant step can reach, thats game. Teleport is also verbal only, so you don't need components on hand, or free hands, to cast a silent teleport.
Blasphemy has no save. The save involved only applies if you have the Extraplanar subtype, and then its a save vs banishment. If you are on your native plane, that section doesn't apply to you.
Monk SR is by no means absolute, nor difficult to circumvent. SR is a tool for NPCs, not PCs. Most things a PC tends to fight often have higher caster levels. That alone already negates the chance to apply it down a bit. Then there is the fact that recieving helpful spells is a PitA. The above mentioned method of Blasphemy-lock wouldn't work in a 20 vs 20 battle though, but not for the reasons you gave. Blasphemy doesn't do anything if your HD are equal to the CL of the creature, and Balors have a CL of 20. If it was 17 vs 17, or even 19 vs 19, it would be a valid tactic, but at 20 not so much. Power Word:Stun would probably be the better tactic, if gating in a Balor to do your dirty work would be your chosen tactic, especially since Monks tend to be very MAD, and points put in Str, Wis, and Dex take away from the Con you need to get enough HP to be immune to PW:S.
All in all, you are correct, the above poster was a bit dilusional about some things. That doesn't negate his point, just his execution. Other ways still work, and are better.
Well, you have to remember that the fellow I was quoting was going on the absurd premise that a wizard who only rolled ones would still beat a monk rolling 20's, so SR would be quite relevant. Also, combined with a monk's high saves, SR can be very handy even if it doesn't work all the time - rather like a Concealment chance for spells.
And actually, IMO the biggest flaw in Abundant Step is that it's a standard action. For it to be really useful for a monk, it should count as a move action so they could use it and attack the same round. It certainly fits the mystical-Asian-warrior model better hat way.
Edit: the reason Fortification is open to interpretation is because it specifically says it only makes the user immune to damage form crits or SA's. Whereas Stunning Fist doesn't work on creature types immune to crit damage. Fortification does not change yout creature type, it just protects you from damage. One could rule either way I suppose, but really, when having to make a judgement call like that are you really going to rule in such a way that nerfs one of the monks only useful abilities?
And:
No problem. Empty Body + Abundant Step + item that allows Ghost Touch = Surprise! Cause anyone who can become ethereal as a class feature and doesn't have the Ghost Touch ability via some method is really dumb. Not to mention the "Don't bother grappling" thing I mentioned earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xMachina
That's another overconfident wizard who thinks he's too badass to know his opponent's abilities biting the dust.
Previously i have read the common themes in these discussions and while i had not played a Monk i agreed with what had been said on paper.
In our game that just endd My character died and i got to start a Monk at lvl 8 and it continued til the end of the Campaign at lvl 10. for the most part My views have changed.
I will preface saying this is all Pathfinder Stuff with no 3.5
I Built the character with he intent of having my bases covered. I split my 20 pt buy among str dex con wis. and after Gear and Racial (human) i was 18 18 14 16. i went with the Weapon Maser Archtype focused on the temple sword . when the game ended i had a
60 ft move saves of 12 13 12, evasion. And a CMB of +22 to Trip. on a flurry of Blows against a slowed or staggered or stunned or whatever target i could get /8/ attacks. with no Dr 6 of these at my highest Bab (which for the sword was +16, a bit lower for the Punches)
Ac of 27 (28 with mage armor) and 32 using Ki of which i had 9.
Was the character perfect? No it had holes in it, I could do 80 foot jumps but needed to be hasted to clear 20 feet high. couldnt See invis or Fly etc.
but really characters don't exist in a vacuum .
However, i will adMit. in a group where everyone was Uber optimized id have been far less effective Especially if bad guys were improved to compensate for that.
As it is minions needed 20's to hit me and many of the bbeg in the high teens.
> assume all unclear rules must always work out in the wizard's favor, and
> forget about anything that disproves their hypothesis.
Have to say I noticed that before in other environments.
> Well, aside from the fact that Fortification protecting from a monk's
> stunning is a highly debatable rule interpretation
Here I agree. Well, for that matter, I haven't seen it used so much ingame because of the price tag. Well, _if_ it really did make you "Immune to Critical Hits" it would be worth it, but as far as I can see the rules don't say that; they just say "there's a 100% chance that a critical hit will deal only normal damage".
That said, I guess it's already doing the Monk an implausible favour to start at 5' distance.
> padded armor has a 5% spell failure chance
Or use a Mithral Twilight Chainshirt, 0% ASF but costs another +1... that Heavy Fort armour (if it worked) would have a +7 total bonus now, but I guess at level 20 that's reasonable.
Also, Monk will probably have some stuff that grants him Flight, a Minor Ring of Universal Energy Resistance (to stop stuff like Acid Fog cold), and craploads of other utility stuff, which he can afford since he doesn't spend money on weapons.
> you've forgotten that monks' Abundant Step ability mimics Dimension Door. Monk jumps 800 feet closer to the wizard.
Right, but iirc Abundant Step also ends your turn.
> Oops, make that 5 feet.
> Oops, attack of opportunity! Just sayin'.
Even if the Monk has the Mage Slayer feat, what's to prevent the Wiz from taking a 5' Step and then casting whatever spell he wants?
>Now here we get to the real, biggest, most obvious flaw of this whole >scenario - high level monks have spell resistance (the Blasphemy >effect of a Balor has a Save too, but we'll let that slide).
SR30, which means the Balor (being CL20) has a 55% chance of getting it through. However, now that what I said in my previous post kicks in -- do the Summons also auto-1 or not? If they do, I guess the Wizard is screwed.
But either way, note that the "All 1s vs All 20s" wasn't my idea, and I think it's pretty meaningless. Sure, if the Wizard wins anyway (without bending any rules in his favour) that would prove that the Monk is so completely useless he could just hang himself, but otherwise this scenario proves... nothing.
A "Everyone rolls 10s all the time" would be more reasonable, and here I don't see much leeway for the Monk.
It'd also need a clause that lets it override Dimension Door's inability to act after using it. As-is, only that one tactical feat allows you to do so.
It's a fair criticism. Most wizards don't invest in crit immunity through items, since their primary strategy is not to get hit. But, well, then we go down the road of how gosh-darn good wizards are at not getting hit. My wizard characters always have a least a couple of panic buttons to throw at high levels to get them out of the way if trouble threatens.
In general, panic buttons are good; in high-level play, they're vital. Wizards have them. Sorcerers and artificers have them in spades. Clerics and favored souls have them, as do beguilers and bards. Warblades and swordsages and crusaders have them. Factotums definitely do.
Monks, not so much.
I've only DMed for one monk. A third level VoP Monk, and at that level it was almost impossable to hit with level appropriate encounters.
That is not to say that the situation would continue with higher levels, and I don't think it would, but at low levels a monk can hold up. At mid levels probably not. And high levels has already been talked about to death.
What stat generation method was used in this low level game? It really does make a difference. Buying points on a 25 PB budget is rough on a monk. That one annoying player who manages to roll 4 18s nearly every time you sit down at the table? That really tips the scale back the other way, especially at really low levels.
I just think the funniest thing is this phrase: "Monks are fine. I give them X, Y, Z, a cadilac, free rent, an an AR-15 assault rifle. Monks in my game aren't overshadowed at all."
Cause you know...if you have to fix it, maybe...just maybe...it might be broke?
Monks don't suck.
Powergamers have this idea that if a group of classes has higher stats, then a group of classes with lower stats must therefore suck.
The only class that really sucks is Truenamer.
It doesn't do what it sells itself doing. That's the issue. While other classes are able to do things, that doesn't mean they're the standard. We all know wizards are nearly the strongest in the game, but we need not compare a wizard to a monk to show the monk's failures. A better metric would be either an unarmed fighter class, such as the swordsage, totemist, or, carp, even the barbarian class to show the monk's issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by archon_huskie
I'd actually say the Fighter is worse in this regard. The fluff for fighters says they're supposed to be warlords, guards, and veteran soldiers. Yet they have no leadership or tactical abilities (such as Bardic Music, White Raven Maneuvers, Marshal Auras, Diplomacy, etc), no decent observational abilities (such as Spot or Listen or Sense Motive, Wisdom as a used stat, etc), and no military abilities (such as Knowledge History, or anything that helps with making the Heroes of Battle checks that show you know how to deal with battles).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat
Monks, meanwhile, are billed as being people who hit things with their fists. They are that. They're just not as good at it as they should be to compete.
Personally, I think Monks are designed exactly as intended... it's just that the game the designers intended us to play is not the game most folks play. The game we're supposed to play is one where Clerics are all healbots, Druids keep their Animal Companions back and use Wild Shape only for scouting and the like, Wizards and Sorcerers blast, and so on. In such a game, you die a lot, then roll up new characters and try again.
But they accidentally made Wizards, Clerics, and Druids FAR more powerful than they ever meant to, and many other classes were too strong too, and the result is the Monk ends up looking like a complete failure despite perfectly matching the design goals.
JaronK
I'm not entirely sure why anecdotal evidence is obviously misguided, but vague assertions are reliable. I would, however, be inclined to agree that, at the very least, a large proportion of people who play 3.5 don't think monks suck. I am inclined to disagree that the suckiness of monks is determined by popular vote, though. Whether or not people enjoy playing monks is a very different issue from whether or not monks are bad (more on that in a second).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
I'm not sure how Decisive Strike helps, since I'm pretty sure it's a full-round action to make the double damage attack. That said, Decisive Strike can allow for an okay build based on using it, then getting a truckload of double-damage AOO's off stuff like Karmic Strike, but even then you're better off taking as few levels of monk as possible in favor of classes with BAB to get the necessary feats faster. It still doesn't help the mobility issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoxus
And...since JaronK posted, I feel like an obligatory tiers mention is in order.
Monks are a low tier, because while you CAN make one that is strong, it takes a LOT more work, and the return on investment is low. That is the meaning of a low tier class.
I can build you a monk that will absolutely kick ass, and be able to keep up with a group of T3s. It'll take some effort, a wide variety of books, a handful of other classes and prestige classes, and will probably only contain a few levels of monk in the end.
By contrast, I could just make a wizard and memorize Glitterdust and be just as effective. Or be a druid and take Natural Spell. Some classes are good enough on their own that you can make them very effective with little effort. These are high tier classes. Other classes take a LOT more effort to be effective, and in the end, the effort still might not be worth it. These are low tier classes. The monk is a low tier class.
5% is statistically the same as a 1 on a d20, but it isn't a d20 roll. it is a percentile roll. Wizard is immune to critical hits, therefore to stunning.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
He can't use the mithril twilight chainshirt. Not core.
A level 20 wizard, even an NPC, easily has enough money to buy this. Or make it. The monk can pick some items also.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
Because none of those things actually stop D door. it is V only, and made silent with a metamagic feat, of which the wizard gets several for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
Sure. But wizard has a + con item, and his second highest stat is Con. Assuming a 20 Con (pitifully easy at level 20) Wizard has 123 HP if he rolled all 1s on his d4s, and is probably closer to 150.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
Then wizard DDoors away again. I can do it several times a day. Can the monk?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
5 foot step. Quickened Invisibility. AOOs are easy to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
You know, you're right. I did forget that one. Fair enough. So the wizard is now several hundred feet away from the monk, and just needs a lockdown or kill method with no Saving Throw. Give me a few minutesQuote:
Originally Posted by JonestheSpy
Sorry Keld. My PHB and the SRD agree that Blasphemy stuns when HD = Caster level. Thats why I chose the Balor over the Pit Fiend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keld Denar
Bah, I thought the daze was at CL-1, but its at CL. Weakened is the one at CL-1. My bad...:smallbiggrin: