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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx? I mean, I know it's only a computer RPG and thus a collection of bits and bytes, but some of us do like to at least *try* to stay in character. (Which is why I get annoyed when my assassin character tries to kill Ancano for giving her lip, and the game doesn't allow it...).
Also, knowing where places are doesn't always help. If you go to the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary before killing Grelod the Kind and having your meeting with Astrid, you can't do anything there and you can't tell the guards about it--the only way to destroy the Brotherhood is to start the Dark Brotherhood questline and then kill Astrid in the Abandoned Shack.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
factotum
And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx?
CHIM more letters
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Sporeegg
How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?
You don't, that's exactly the point. You also can't watch the door and wait, nobody will ever enter or leave the place. Ever.
I'm not sure if it's really the railroading I mind. I've enjoyed plenty of games that were way more railroady than Skyrim. I think it's more the sheer nonsensical badness of the script that you have to sit through, to get anything done.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Triaxx
Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.
If you're genuinely just wandering about randomly that's fine. It's when you're *pretending* to wander randomly when secretly you're looking for a place your character shouldn't know exists it gets iffy.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
The way I see it, joining those organizations can be considered to be more something that the organizations want rather than what the game designer wants. Imagine the prestige you would gain from being able to say "Yeah, the Dragonborn is in our gang". Even if you're not necessarily doing anything for them, you're still part of their group. Both the Thieves' guild and the College are down on their luck and are at risk of disappearing, so the boost in notoriety they could claim from Dragonborn membership would be impressive by any measure.
So think of it less like doing something awful and more like being pressured to join an exclusive club so they can brag to their buddies they got to meet the Dragonborn.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.
Six flavors of training (including three master trainers) and the only way to get high level spells. Plus, five merchants to sell things to. Seems like useful stuff.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
So, fun quests that might have existed:
1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?
I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Hall
So, fun quests that might have existed:
1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?
I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
That's just plain bad game design there.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Hall
2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
I think Skyrim and Oblivion could do with not having protected characters. Although I suppose that it's pretty much inevitable since they can die from anything that isn't you, and it would kind of suck to have an important character just die constantly in a quest because a dragon decided to chomp Delphine.
Not that I would shed tears for her, but y'know, you do need her to continue the main quest.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Celestia
That's just plain bad game design there.
Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divayth Fyr
Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P
Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Hall
Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.
Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.
No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Celestia
No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
I would also add that unlike the TG, the DB is not beholden to the Blackbriars and, especially without the TG at her disposal, would not care overmuch about her opinion.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Celestia
No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.
Because (Keltest's clarification aside), they're not unrelated. They're related by a shared patron (though, as Keltest points out, I was wrong about the degree of influence Maven had on the DB).
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
Because she's an ass
Her power is imaginary.
She's no good.
She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....
The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.
It's terrible game/story design. I can't fathom why they thought she was a good idea.
I miss the days of morrowind; You could kill essentials, even gods, and you could also steal everything not nailed down (there was no need for invisible chests under the map)
Games should go back to that. Maybe they could get better at it, maybe they could have replacements for characters. But they should definitely try to go back to that.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Celestia
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Resileaf
Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.
It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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Originally Posted by
Celestia
It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.
I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.
In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.
In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Celestia
The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.
Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Just doing the main quest in Morrowind makes a bunch of important people hate you enough that if you show up in Vivec, you get attacked by guards. And you certainly haven't done anything like dismantle an entire organization (although you're technically in the process of doing it, I suppose).
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.
And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Celestia
And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.
I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.
What is the problem?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Jack
Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
Because she's an ass
Her power is imaginary.
She's no good.
She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....
The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.
I'm not a fan of the essential tag either, but it's also just a necessary constraint of the medium. The designers can't anticipate every single person you'll want to merc and create a list of alternate mission actors to carry out their role when they're dead. That said, Maven's power isn't imaginary. She's just not more powerful than the Dovakhiin, literally the most powerful individual on Tamriel who isn't a Daedra. John Gotti wasn't a feared mobster because someone was worried he was going to punch through their sternum like Mola Ram. He was feared because there were a bunch of other dangerous people who obeyed him.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Well, I'm of the opinion that if you go around murdering npcs for ****s and giggles (or simply since you don't like them) you should be prepared to being unable to do some of the content.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltest
I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.
What is the problem?
Because your options are join a faction you don't want to join, ruin your chance of joining a faction you to want to join, or not play the game. In other words, your options are bad, more bad, and worst. I really don't get how this is so difficult.