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Hmm. Shriek sounds like an ability you could build an interesting tank around, honestly, provided the rest of the party was effective at range. Build a lockdown melee type based on Trip/Stand Still/etc, charge to separate from the party, Shriek every round to lock down as many enemies as possible and use melee crowd control tricks to corral any others.
Hard to find a good PC class to compare this against ... maybe scout, for the speed and the middling combat ability. Scout would have way more skill points, though +3 DexMod helps make up for the lack. I'm not super impressed with what those two RHD are buying you, but they seem about on par with Tier 4 PCs. So, yeah, LA +0 for the Abrian.
Ah, the good old Abrian:
- Medium Magic Beast (extraplanar)
- 2 RHD: the second most manageable amount of RHD in the game. Full BAB, 2 good saves.
- Speed 50 ft: not half bad
- +2 natural AC: meh
- Beak and kick: at least the beak has an augmented critical
- Darkvision 60 ft & low-light vision: not bad
- Sonic resistance 10: any resistance is appreciated, but sonic is usually the least common
- Shriek: standard action for a potential daze - not bad, especially at lower levels where the DC is relevant. Less creatures are immune to dazed than stunned. The low DC hurts, though. Also, better if you operate in a pack - how many of these guys are likely to be in the same party?
- Str +2, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4: net +6, but that hit to Int always hurts.
- Decent racial skill list: with that Int, skills aren't likely to be your thing, though. +4 racial bonus to Spot isn't bad.
- Can those tiny little arms actually do anything? It has a reduced carrying capacity, which kinda sucks. I question it's ability to wield weapons. It should have most (all?) of the magic item slots, though.
- They speak Abyssal, so language (and casting) shouldn't be an issue.
At this stage I'll go along with LA +0. Definitely the go-to if you're into playing demonic ostriches. :smalltongue:
The Shriek ability has a problem, in that it is not clear what the Save DC is based on or if it's a fixed DC. Supernatural abilities are usually based on Charisma, but that wouldn't line up.
The line about "atrophied humanoid arms (use 1/2) Strength score to determine an abrian's carrying capacity)" is a troubling one, though.
On the whole, it's not very good, but it's probably enough to scrape by as a weak +0 ... albeit one that probably won't see any play.
For the record, we're in Fiend Folio, for anyone who isn't sure where the Abrian comes from.
(Su) defaults to 10 + 1/2 HD + modifier, defaulting to Cha in lieu of exception. This thing has net +1 modifiers for Str and Con which would fit; some critters feed (Su) off Con, like True Dragon breath weapons, so there could be a weak argument for scaling it rather than fixing the DC at 12. Overall, the Shriek is probably the draw, so how it is ruled would determine whether this is worth playing or not.
I am going to go with LA +0 regardless; very weak fixed at DC 12, and something that can be built around if you scale the DC.
I've seen some conflicting arguments as to whether the DC for Su abilities is calculated using RHD only, or total HD (RHD + class levels).
Any thoughts or citations?
DMG 3.5, SRD, and Rules Compendium all simply say HD, no mention of RHD at all in (Su) DC calculation. Any RHD mention should be an exception in a particular entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurbane
Well, that means that the DC should sacle with class levels, which is nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357
I've seen stats blocks that only use RHD, but as we all know, stat blocks are notoriously wonky...
These are a fine +0. Decent enough HD type, okay if not outstanding stats, and an at will save or suck that scales and is not blocked by common immunities.
A not terrible beatstick that can go into ToB classes well. Bonuses to all physical stats, natural armor, 50' move. 2 RHD, but they are d10 with 2 good saves and +2 BAB. Skills are crippled, but could still manage swordsage as well as crusader/warblade. Or just ubercharger or something.
The daze isn't party friendly unless they are all Necropolitan or something. But take some Init buffs (+6 to dex is big), maybe a friendly nerveskitter, and if you go first you can spam aoe save or lose. Scales with HD and Con, could be worse. And 50' move and +4 spot help that. Plus darkvision and low-light vision, decent in the 2-5 range.
I think it meets +0, going into any beatstick role that doesn't require multiple skills.
I like the Abrian at LA +0, like most have said. The natural attacks are nice in that they're hands-free, and Shriek is pretty neat.
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It's in the Intro to the Monster Manual (p. 6):Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357
Here is where it's found in the online SRD.Quote:
When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier. The save DC is given in thecreature’s description along with the ability on which the DC is based.
It's also repeated in the intro to the Fiend Folio, but it says "non-class Hit Dice" instead of "racial Hit Dice."
The abrian's Shriek DC was probably calculated using its Con score, and that's how I'd rule it as a DM; but they did fail to clarify that in the entry, so it's open to interpretation.
And yet, here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...turalAbilities is a link to another part of the SRD that states something different. Which was presumably pulled directly from the DMG, and reiterated in the Rules Compendium on page 119; which mentions the possibility of racial bonuses to an (Su) ability but specifies scaling DCs based on HD, full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay
Freaking WOTC. :smalltongue:
Abrian is bland but effective. Good stat mods at the cost of two solid hit dice. It's like taking a dip in abrian for stats instead of fighter for feats. +0 from me.
I've always interpreted the part you're quoting as the most general rule, and the intro to the MM as a more specific rule that deals specifically with monsters (leaving only a narrow slice of content that uses the general rule). Of course, under this interpretation, you could make the case that "monsters-as-PCs" should use the general rule that you quoted, while the more specific rule is reserved just for "monsters-as-monsters."Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357
But when I DM, I let players calculate off their full Hit Dice anyway, just because it's too restrictive otherwise. I just don't see a good reason for an abrian PC's Shriek DC to be frozen at 12 for the entire game.
Going with the crowd of +0, here. It's not too interesting to me save the speed and shriek. I can't wait to see what theKhen-zaiEthergaunts get ranked as.
I am assuming they will all have LAs. My question will blacks be changed? They are really solid at ECL 20 vs wizard 20. We shall see.
The Abrian looks fine at +0. One thing I noticed while looking over its stat-block is that it only takes a single additional RHD to advance to large size. I assume that's generally not worth it, but it might be worth a discussion?
For one hit die? That's definitely worth it for a martial build.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeTess
More Str for less RHD than the Ogre(and better ones too). Not bad indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestia
Have we ever actually taken advancement into account before? Because a 3HD large may bear a different LA than a 2 HD medium.
I know I took it into account with the gibbering mouther (another 1 HD advancer) at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber
Honestly, a humanoid +10 strength Large-sized magical beast that still only has 3 RHD seems to be worth +1 LA, maybe I should add a caveat for that?
I think it might be worth noting as an option at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
wyvern is another we specifically pointed out the advancement of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
Abrian, is actually kind of hard to rate, magical beast RHD are pretty nice and a good start for a beatstick. shriek is either a great scaling ability or somewhat ignored after a level or two, also the talk about its arms is troublesome and may require dm fiat as this questionably means you can only apply half your str mod to any weapons you wield which is a major draw back, finally is the size increase at 3 rhd which is hands down worth an RHD without thinking twice.
At 3 rhd it now has a 2d6 kick attack which is one INA away from 3d6 at level 3 that is nothing to sneeze at and even going forward it is a great option. Making a pouncing tripper with a 2 level barbarian dip is the way to go with these things and puts them above anything comparable at the level.
I am going with +1 LA for the Abrian as I can't see anyone using this race not going for 3 rhd, even ignoring the issues with shriek and wielding weapons.
Except it's not humanoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
And, as has been pointed out, the line about atrophied arms and only getting 1/2 Strength to carrying capacity because of those atrophied arms indicates that Strength is arguably restricted on everything you do with the arms.
At best, it's something that needs DM clarification. At worst, it's something potentially crippling for any melee type.
That said ... getting to Large for a third RHD probably is something we should give DMs a heads up about.
This is on the same level as "Cloak of the Obyrith says you are careless about your well-being and so take -2 on survival, which indicates that you are so careless about your well-being that you take -2 on saving throws and AC as well."Quote:
Originally Posted by javcs
We can't assume the abrian is meant to have a (very sizable) penalty on all arm-based actions when the rules only say it's got a lower carrying capacity. Adding additional penalties would be house-ruling, and should not impact general LA.
It's dumb fluff text, anyways. You don't carry your inventory with your arms. You put it in a backpack or on your belt.
RAW it is clear its carrying capacity only. It could be mentioned a DM could look at that in various ways, but that's a rabbit hole I'd rather avoid. (side note: doesn't that seem backwards? The arms are weak, and it has a devastating kick, but it gets reduced carrying capacity? And not weapon damage? The legs look fine so it should be able to carry a heavy backpack. Ah well, that sort of logic is well beyond scope here.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
More helpfully, I think a 3 RHD (Large) Abrian earns a +1 LA. +10 Str, +4 Dex/Con, good NA and move, and a (Su) spammable aoe daze. (however tricky to use) Stat/chassis wise its quite a bit better than Ogre, and I'd argue Centaur as well. I think at least a good sentence stating that is a good idea.
Question - has the LA Assignment thread ever turned its eye to the Unholy Scion template (Heroes of Horror, p155-157)? It's one of the ingredients in the current Junkyard Wars thread, and I was wondering what the thread thought it was actually worth as a template.
We have, you can see the comments from the archive linked on the first page. However, to my knowledge the work of this thread has no baring on any of the competitions taking place.Quote:
Originally Posted by pabelfly
Was looking in the wrong section. Found it now, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidformat
Wanted to use this thread for some background research, understand I'm to use the official books for any actual builds I do, but thank you for checking.