Orbs of actually making sense (3.5 spell fixes, WIP, PEACH)

The orbs of X — flagrant violations of good spell design, and yet, I can't find any fixes for them here! This must and shall bedissolved.

Orb of Acid
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, SF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of mundane acid
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/6 CL; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

"I am seldom vitriolic, even to those I strongly disagree with. You, I'll make an exception for."

Condensing a viscous glob of potent acid, you hurl it at your foe, completely immersing them for one round per six caster levels (max 3 rounds) on a successful ranged touch attack; their equipment is partially protected by the spell's patterns, and takes only half damage. Unless neutralized in some way, it continues to eat away at their flesh (dealing the usual damage for exposure to mundane acid) for a further 2 rounds as it trickles down. Dispel magic or similar can stop the immersion, but not the subsequent exposure. A swarm is considered a single creature for targeting the orb, though it takes damage as though it were an area effect.

If this orb is fired into an antimagic field, the orb splatters to considerably lesser effect; initial damage is only that of exposure, though every creature within 5 ft takes 1 point of acid splash damage, and it continues to deal exposure damage to the primary target over subsequent rounds as normal, with no immersion at all.

This acid's poisonous fumes may cause nausea or sickness, as noted in Environmental rules.

Orb of Acid, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/3 CL; see text

As orb of acid, except the spell does not cause immersion, so initial damage is only that of exposure. However, initial contact is magically maintained for an extra round per three caster levels (max 6 rounds).

Orb of Magma
Conjuration (Teleportation) [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Effect: One orb of mundane magma
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/10 CL; see text

As orb of acid, except as noted here. Instead of creating a glob of acid, you call a molten lump of lava from elsewhere in the multiverse, completely covering your foe in lava for one round per ten caster levels (max 3 rounds) on a successful ranged touch attack. The effects of immersion and exposure are as for ordinary magma instead of acid; most equipment takes one quarter damage from immersion instead of one half (half base, halved again because of fire's lessened effect on objects).

If this orb is fired into an antimagic field, the lump's impact does 3d6 bludgeoning damage in addition to normal exposure, and every creature within 5 ft takes 2 points of fire splash damage.

Huge or larger creatures are not completely covered, though they still take damage as if they were; failure on their Str checks to move freely in the lava renders them entangled instead of reducing their Dex score to 0.

Orb of Magma, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/5 CL; see text

As orb of magma, but the lump is not large enough to immerse the target, so initial damage is only 2d6 bludgeoning and the usual damage of exposure. However, initial contact is magically maintained for an extra one round per five caster levels (max 4 rounds).

Orb of Fire
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Effect: One orb of mundane fire
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/6 CL; see text
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: No, Yes; see text

As orb of magma, except as noted here. Instead of magma, you call a scorching ball of fire from the heart of the Plane of Fire. This immersion in intense flames lasts for one round per six caster levels (max 3 rounds) on a successful ranged touch attack, dealing the usual damage for immersion in the Plane of Fire — 3d10 per round, doubled against water creatures — and causing the target and their equipment (if flammable) to catch on fire.

If this orb is fired into an antimagic field, splash damage is only 1 point of fire damage to all creatures within 5 ft, and it causes ignition as normal.

When immersed, the target must make a Will save or be dazed for the duration of immersion as the flames dance around them. Spell resistance applies to this effect (and only to this effect).

Orb of Fire, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/3 CL; see text
Saving Throw: None

As orb of fire, but the spell does not cause immersion, so initial damage is only the usual damage of exposure. However, initial contact is magically maintained for an extra one round per three caster levels (max 6 rounds).

Orb of Cold
Conjuration (Teleportation) [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Effect: One orb of mundane frigid liquid
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/6 CL; see text

As orb of acid, except that instead of creating a glob of acid, you condense droplets of some unimaginably cold fluid from elsewhere on the planes. This fluid is so cold that it does twice as much damage (and inflicts twice the Dexterity penalty) per round of exposure or immersion as freezing water does. Most equipment takes one eighth damage from immersion instead of one half (half base, quartered because of cold's greatly lessened effect on objects).

If this orb is fired into an antimagic field, splash damage is 1 point of cold damage to all creatures within 5 ft.

Orb of Cold, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/3 CL

As orb of cold, but the orb is not large enough to immerse the target, so initial damage is only that of exposure. However, initial contact is magically maintained for an extra one round per three caster levels (max 6 rounds).

Orb of Force
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, SF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: One orb of magical force
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You gather magical energy into a perfect sphere and hurl it at your foe, dealing 1d4 force damage per level (maximum 15d4) with a successful ranged touch attack. In addition, the orb may make a bull rush attempt (it has an effective Str score of your Int or Cha score, whichever is higher, +0 for being Medium, and a +2 bonus for charging, which it always gets). The orb always moves with the opponent to push that target back the full distance allowed (out to the maximum of its range), and it has no speed limit.

Orb of Electricity
This spell is removed.

Orb of Electricity, Lesser
This spell is removed.

Orb of Sound
This spell is removed.

Orb of Sound, Lesser
This spell is removed.

Environmental Effects
This is a restatement and slight amendment of standard rules. Additional rules for exposure to extremely cold liquids (such as below-freezing saltwater, or even colder) are also included. Irrelevant sections have been elided with ellipses (…).

Acid Effects
Corrosive acid deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round.[…]

The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who come close enough to a large body of acid to dunk a creature in it must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such characters must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage. Some acids may instead induce nausea under the same circumstances, with a DC of 15 to reduce to sickening, and a DC of 21 to negate entirely.

Creatures immune to acid’s caustic properties might still drown in it if they are totally immersed.

Cold Dangers
[…]
Extreme cold (below -20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very cold metal are affected as if by a chill metal spell.

Freezing Water
Water at or below its normal freezing point deals 1d3 points of cold damage and a stacking temporary Dexterity penalty of 1 point per round of exposure. Total immersion instead deals 5d6 points of cold damage and a stacking temporary Dexterity penalty of 1d4 per round. This penalty lasts for 1 hour or until the character is entirely dried off; during this time, the character is treated as though in conditions of extreme cold, and all Fort saves to avoid environmental cold conditions take a -4 penalty.

[…]

Heat Dangers
[…]
Catching On Fire
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

Lava Effects
Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava. Additionally, any creature exposed to magma must make a Str check (DC 21) or be entangled until exposure ceases; immersion requires a Str check of DC 25 to avoid being effectively paralyzed as the encasing lava prevents movement (treat Dexterity score as 0). These Str checks may be re-attempted on subsequent rounds as a full-round action.

Suggestions for flavor text would still be much appreciated.

Spoiler: Changelog

Show

A bit of a boon to those wishing to avoid busting all their enemies' equipment; specific handling for [swarm] subtype.
Reformatted spells to emphasize commonality, broke out new summary of penalties imposed by various immersions and exposures.
OK, Fire and Magma are now two different lines, and Cold is a bit more sensible in its penalty.
Lesser orbs scale. Status effects. A few other tweaks.
Scaling durations! Also new levels, for now.
Mentioned ranged touch attacks specifically and changed subschool of Fire/Cold.

I have a soft spot for spell fixes, so I can't help but comment here...

I appreciate what you're trying to do here. But since when can Conjuration superheat rocks into magma? Just make Orb of Fire be Evocation. It's literally a fire ball, and it belongs in the same school as Fireball. Likewise, Orb of Cold is 90% the same as Freezing Sphere. Seriously, check it out; Freezing Sphere is usually forgotten, but it's basically is the core version of the Orb spells. Just make Orb of Cold be Evocation.

What is the point of prohibiting the orbs from scaling? It just makes them particularly powerful when first acquired and then useless later. Very powerful when first acquired, in fact; Orb of Acid and Orb of Cold deal 15d6 damage for a 4th level spell - seems like that could be toned down. I actually can see some logic behind the lack of scaling, since touch attacks get easier as you gain levels, but it puts them seriously out of sync with the rest of the system. That feels strange to me.

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Originally Posted by Vadskye

I have a soft spot for spell fixes, so I can't help but comment here...

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Awesome!

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I appreciate what you're trying to do here. But since when can Conjuration superheat rocks into magma? Just make Orb of Fire be Evocation. It's literally a fire ball, and it belongs in the same school as Fireball. Likewise, Orb of Cold is 90% the same as Freezing Sphere. Seriously, check it out; Freezing Sphere is usually forgotten, but it's basically is the core version of the Orb spells. Just make Orb of Cold be Evocation.

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I know of freezing sphere, yes. Like fireball, though, it's not a substance that is itself hot or cold, it's a burst of heating or chilling in the selected area. As such, SR can reasonably prevent the magic from heating or chilling any given creature.

Here, though, the temperature change is done ahead of time. Although… it might make more sense if I made them Conjuration (summoning) or (calling), representing pulling existing magma/supercold fluid (which I imagine to be liquid air or something) from somewhere in the multiverse.

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What is the point of prohibiting the orbs from scaling? It just makes them particularly powerful when first acquired and then useless later. Very powerful when first acquired, in fact; Orb of Acid and Orb of Cold deal 15d6 damage for a 4th level spell - seems like that could be toned down. I actually can see some logic behind the lack of scaling, since touch attacks get easier as you gain levels, but it puts them seriously out of sync with the rest of the system. That feels strange to me.

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The lack of scaling is purely an artifact of their mundane nature; they can't do more or less damage per round, because that's not something the spell controls directly. (This also means, incidentally, that Empower, Maximize, Energy Admixture, and so on don't really work.) What I could do is change the duration in some way to make it scale in effect by CL. Have to think about that some more, but off-hand a 9th-level orb of fire that magically presses mundane lava around a target for 1 round/5 CL seems like it might work.

It's conjuration because the magic creates the rock in such a way that it melts. It's actually pretty cool, in my opinion; I like the idea of chucking a blob of magma at someone, rather than throwing some kind of "ball" of "fire".:smalltongue:

All of these spells also have measurably different effects from their closest Evocation counterparts (except Orb of Force, obviously), while being extremely similar thematically. I like that; these are unique, flavorful spells that accomplish the goal of "give a blaster a new option" without just being Fireball, Touch Spell Edition.

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Originally Posted by TuggyNE

I know of freezing sphere, yes. Like fireball, though, it's not a substance that is itself hot or cold, it's a burst of heating or chilling in the selected area. As such, SR can reasonably prevent the magic from heating or chilling any given creature.

Here, though, the temperature change is done ahead of time. Although… it might make more sense if I made them Conjuration (summoning) or (calling), representing pulling existing magma/supercold fluid (which I imagine to be liquid air or something) from somewhere in the multiverse.

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Regardless of the target of the temperature change (a rock or your foe's face), the original version still magically performs a change in temperature on a mundane target, which is 100% Evocation. As far as changing it to (Summoning) or (Calling)... that could work, and there are Elemental Planes that would make that pretty trivial to do. But is that really a step you want to take? If you say that Conjuration can create any effect as long as something exists in the multiverse that performs that effect, you're basically setting up Conjuration as the "I can do everything" school. There are startlingly few limits on its power if you allow that, so I'd advise against it.

With that said, that's a systematic concern that you may not be worried about for a small tweak like this. As long as you don't start writing a bunch of other spells that are consistent with this logic, it shouldn't cause much of a problem.

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The lack of scaling is purely an artifact of their mundane nature; they can't do more or less damage per round, because that's not something the spell controls directly. (This also means, incidentally, that Empower, Maximize, Energy Admixture, and so on don't really work.) What I could do is change the duration in some way to make it scale in effect by CL. Have to think about that some more, but off-hand a 9th-level orb of fire that magically presses mundane lava around a target for 1 round/5 CL seems like it might work.

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Why does Acid Arrow scale directly, then? I don't actually have a conceptual problem with saying that more powerful casters can create/summon more of whatever powerful stuff they're working with. It makes sense to me.

(Come to think of it, what is the difference between Acid Arrow and Orb of Acid, except for the fact that the latter is numerically much more powerful?)

SO.. I have always found the best fix for the Orb of X spells was to make them Evocation.

WHy did you get rid of orb of electricity and sound?

I never really thought the Orb spells needed Fixing,a nd im not really understanding your reasonings here.

I just thought the

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flagrant violations of good spell design

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was that WOTC did the old Conjuration need to do everything.

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Originally Posted by unbeliever536

It's conjuration because the magic creates the rock in such a way that it melts. It's actually pretty cool, in my opinion; I like the idea of chucking a blob of magma at someone, rather than throwing some kind of "ball" of "fire".:smalltongue:

All of these spells also have measurably different effects from their closest Evocation counterparts (except Orb of Force, obviously), while being extremely similar thematically. I like that; these are unique, flavorful spells that accomplish the goal of "give a blaster a new option" without just being Fireball, Touch Spell Edition.

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Much obliged for the kind words! Yeah, I'm trying first to get a sensible effect that makes sense for Conjuration, then one that's practical to use, and then finally figuring out what level to assign.

On that note, I suddenly realized none of the spells actually say they need a ranged touch attack. Let me fix that. :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by Vadskye

Regardless of the target of the temperature change (a rock or your foe's face), the original version still magically performs a change in temperature on a mundane target, which is 100% Evocation. As far as changing it to (Summoning) or (Calling)... that could work, and there are Elemental Planes that would make that pretty trivial to do. But is that really a step you want to take? If you say that Conjuration can create any effect as long as something exists in the multiverse that performs that effect, you're basically setting up Conjuration as the "I can do everything" school. There are startlingly few limits on its power if you allow that, so I'd advise against it.

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Conjuration can only produce effects that already exist in some natural form, and only to the extent that they can scale. And, as noted, there's… really no logical justification for e.g. a ball of mundane electrical damage (ball lightning appears to either do no damage or blow up a fair-sized area, from the limited research I know of, neither of which fit a single-target spell) or mundane sound damage.

Checking [cold] spells in Core real quick, it seems that all are Evocation. However, there's an Abjuration, a Transmutation, and yes a Conjuration [fire] spell that each cause fire damage in some fashion. Still, varying the subschools a little seems like a good plan. Keep acid uniquely suited to Conjuration, and so forth. (Dimensional lock around a caster, or a similar effect on the plane in general, will prevent them from casting orb of fire/cold.)

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With that said, that's a systematic concern that you may not be worried about for a small tweak like this. As long as you don't start writing a bunch of other spells that are consistent with this logic, it shouldn't cause much of a problem.

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I am trying to limit systematic problems (actually, improve on them), but I consider there to be a meaningful barrier to further spells of different types. Well, meaningful in principle, at least; the school of summoning and calling will never really lack for good things to use.

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Why does Acid Arrow scale directly, then? I don't actually have a conceptual problem with saying that more powerful casters can create/summon more of whatever powerful stuff they're working with. It makes sense to me.

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It scales directly in duration only, not damage per round, precisely the same way I'm considering.

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(Come to think of it, what is the difference between Acid Arrow and Orb of Acid, except for the fact that the latter is numerically much more powerful?)

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Pretty much just that the latter is numerically much more powerful (and has subtly different interactions with various effects; for example, the acid it creates doesn't just drop into nothingness in an AMF, nor immediately poof away when the spell ends).

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Originally Posted by ngilop

SO.. I have always found the best fix for the Orb of X spells was to make them Evocation.

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You could make Evocation versions of all of these, but I find "1d6 [fire/cold/acid/electric/sonic/force] damage/level, ranged touch attack, save against rider, SR Yes" to be fundamentally boring.

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WHy did you get rid of orb of electricity and sound?

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Because a) they only make sense (if at all) as Evocation, not Conjuration and b) they're non-trivial to explain (Force was just a convenient "yeah OK this will only take a second" spell).

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I never really thought the Orb spells needed Fixing,a nd im not really understanding your reasonings here.

I just thought the was that WOTC did the old Conjuration need to do everything.

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I'm trying to improve both logical consistency and game balance: the former by fixing spell scaling and effects, the latter by fixing spell scaling and only including a subset of energy types and making it impossible to swap them.

Though I don't particularly think the Orbs need fixing, your standard four Orbs are pretty reasonable (perhaps restore the range of Orb of Force to Medium? Compare to Chain Missile at 3rd level if you're using Spell Compendium).

Your lesser Orbs however are not in the best shape. Lesser Orb of Fire is pretty unplayable however you shake it, with piddling damage over turn to a single target as a 4th level spell. Lesser Orbs of Acid and Cold are quite strong at 1st caster level and fade into uselessness by 5th caster level. First level damage spells really need to scale with CL due to the expectations of the system, or else you get sillyness like Power Word Pain and Sunstroke.

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Originally Posted by DeAnno

Though I don't particularly think the Orbs need fixing, your standard four Orbs are pretty reasonable (perhaps restore the range of Orb of Force to Medium? Compare to Chain Missile at 3rd level if you're using Spell Compendium).

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Perhaps so. And thanks for the review. :smallsmile:

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Your lesser Orbs however are not in the best shape. Lesser Orb of Fire is pretty unplayable however you shake it, with piddling damage over turn to a single target as a 4th level spell. Lesser Orbs of Acid and Cold are quite strong at 1st caster level and fade into uselessness by 5th caster level. First level damage spells really need to scale with CL due to the expectations of the system, or else you get sillyness like Power Word Pain and Sunstroke.

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Yeah, I think they need to scale in duration, and lesser orb of fire may need to go down a level.

Well, was discussing this elsewhere, thought I'd take in a look and a few comments.

Honestly I mostly like the effect.

I'd probably provide a Reflex saving throw for them as a suggestion. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. Well, more so than "I dodge the explosion which completely engulfs my area without moving" does for a Reflex Save.

So the Saving Throw entry might read -

Saving Throw: Reflex (See Text)

With text like "Creatures that succeed on the reflex saving throw take no initial damage from the Orb spell, but take exposure damage starting on the first round, thus a creature who successfully saves against Orb of takes 1d6 cold damage for 1d4+1 rounds. Evasion prevents this spell from dealing damage to the target. Improved Evasion means the target only stakes exposure damage on a failed saving throw. If the Orb scattered due to an Anti-Magic Field, a successful Reflex saving throw by the primary target limits the damage taken to that of the area of effect damage, and successful saving throws by other targets negates the damage."

... which is a dramatic decrease in power, depending on what you're fighting I suppose. But it'd make a more interesting trade off from the higher than normal "blasting" damage. 10d6 for example at level 7 is pretty hefty for spell damage, coming online about 3 levels faster than the supposedly superior blasting school does, nevermind subsequent damage as well.

I dunno... spitballing here.

Odd suggestion of what happens to gear in these orb engulfs you scenarios? item damage is a pain in the ass. But some people are going to imagine that your Orb of Acid deals that 10d6 and 1d6 to every item they wear and hold as well... Which probably will piss off both whoever cast it and whoever it was cast at. I know things like Fireball usually mentions "Unattended items" are the only ones effected, along with combusting flammable materials. It's just one of those weird corner cases that probably won't show up 99% of the time, but when it does, it'll bring a game to a crashing halt.

Not sure if any of this is really helpful. Feverish and kinda delirious, can't sleep. But it was thoughts. Of a sort.

Scaling! Scaling scaling scaling. Scaling is now a thing. But not, sadly, for the lesser orbs.

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1So, I've been wondering what I should do about the reminders in the spell text of the rules in Weather and Environment for acid, lava, etc. At present, they probably look comprehensive, but they very much aren't; you can drown in lava or acid (though anyone who does so with one of these spells would have to have, admittedly, an absurdly low Con), and there's a fixed Reflex DC to avoid catching on fire once the lava stops covering your equipment completely.

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Originally Posted by ArcturusV

Well, was discussing this elsewhere, thought I'd take in a look and a few comments.

Honestly I mostly like the effect.

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Great!

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I'd probably provide a Reflex saving throw for them as a suggestion. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. Well, more so than "I dodge the explosion which completely engulfs my area without moving" does for a Reflex Save.

So the Saving Throw entry might read -

Saving Throw: Reflex (See Text)

With text like "Creatures that succeed on the reflex saving throw take no initial damage from the Orb spell, but take exposure damage starting on the first round, thus a creature who successfully saves against Orb of takes 1d6 cold damage for 1d4+1 rounds. Evasion prevents this spell from dealing damage to the target. Improved Evasion means the target only stakes exposure damage on a failed saving throw. If the Orb scattered due to an Anti-Magic Field, a successful Reflex saving throw by the primary target limits the damage taken to that of the area of effect damage, and successful saving throws by other targets negates the damage."

... which is a dramatic decrease in power, depending on what you're fighting I suppose. But it'd make a more interesting trade off from the higher than normal "blasting" damage. 10d6 for example at level 7 is pretty hefty for spell damage, coming online about 3 levels faster than the supposedly superior blasting school does, nevermind subsequent damage as well.

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Levels are not even close to set in stone, though. So don't put too much thought just yet into "how do we make it fit the level it's at"; once it's settled into a mostly sensible form (which should be pretty soon) I'd like to work out the right level from there.

As far as Reflex saves go, yeah, the intent is to absolutely minimize that if at all consistent with logic, changing how the spell works if necessary. I really don't want a ranged touch + Reflex half/Reflex negates spell.

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Odd suggestion of what happens to gear in these orb engulfs you scenarios? item damage is a pain in the ass. But some people are going to imagine that your Orb of Acid deals that 10d6 and 1d6 to every item they wear and hold as well... Which probably will piss off both whoever cast it and whoever it was cast at. I know things like Fireball usually mentions "Unattended items" are the only ones effected, along with combusting flammable materials. It's just one of those weird corner cases that probably won't show up 99% of the time, but when it does, it'll bring a game to a crashing halt.

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I'm not actually quite sure what happens to their gear if you dump someone into acid, by RAW or RAI. On the one hand, it seems hardly credible to just say "no saving throw to fail, no attack roll that succeeded, no damage", but on the other it seems really lame to just lose tons of gear that way. Asked it in Simple Q&A just to see.

(Incidentally, fireball can damage attended items, but only on a natural 1 on save, and only if it's one of the top 4, and yadda yadda yadda complicated.)

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Originally Posted by TuggyNE

I'm trying to improve both logical consistency and game balance: the former by fixing spell scaling and effects, the latter by fixing spell scaling and only including a subset of energy types and making it impossible to swap them.

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My 2cp:

• I just want to point out that even some of the mundane things that even commoners can do isn't even logically possible (e.g. swinging a weapon all day without tiring, not getting hurt hitting a wall repeatedly). So with that said, I really can't see any fixing needed for functionally sound spells. If we go by logical consistency, most [fire] spells should RAW-wise be called out as being able to provide at least some degree of illumination.
• From a mechanical perspective I actually think that removing other energy orbs (electricity and sound) messed with one of the few spell lines (horizontal line, that is) that actually manages to attempt balancing energy representation. The addition of the [TP] description also makes the fire/cold orb line ineffective in certain situations (e.g. Dimensional Lock, Zone of Respite, etc), IMO further widening the gap in mechanical balance between the energies.

Making it conjuration is funky, but I like it. As ben-zayb mentioned, I think this makes dimension lock a hilarious counter to the orb spells, but I like that flavor. The damage-per-round concept is also neat, making orbs good early in the fight.

My problems are similar to those before:

• Orbs are not all the same level. That's just off-putting.
• Orb scaling is wonky. Lesser orbs should never be used, and the higher orbs come damage on the level of "Don't use this after you get your next orb". 10d6/r -> 20d6/r is kind of a big deal. Orb of Force is still bad unless you're the mailman.
• There are no cc-riders. The whole reason I use orb spells (other than to eek out decent damage) is because the orbs could make combat something other than a HP-slogfest! Turning orb spells into DPR debuffs is cool, but I'd rather see no change in flavor but interesting status effects, instead of awesome flavor and status removal.
• Also, that crap is too fiddly. 1d4+1 rounds of 1d6 or 2d6 damage is not worth keeping track of at 11th level.

I like the idea but I have some problems. Firstly, the rules state instantaneous creation effects are not affected by AMF so why make it different with these spells? If it is a mundane glob of acid why does it get broken up by the AMF? Also the orbs not being the same level and scaling as you level just feels off. I am glad you left them as conjuration schooled spells. I think the orb spells are conjuration in flavor and should stay that way. Orb of fire, for example, is not fireball because fireball is a big explosion whereas orb of fire is just a ball of flame crashing into one person.

The spells are affected during the casting (as is the case with most spells.) The way the magic works here, presumably, is that the Orb of Whatever is summoned by the caster, lobbed at somebody, and held together by magic for the duration of the flight (which is less than one round, so they're instantaneous in that they have no mechanical duration). Because it's held together by magic, an orb won't be totally effective inside and AMF...but it's still a ball of acid hurtling towards your face, so it's going to hurt a bit.

Wow, really well done. These orbs really do act like conjured things rather than a straight up evocation spell labeled conjuration.

Glad you got rid of electricity. I can't think of a way to conjure electricity. It might be possible to make a sonic orb, but it would probably be more debuffs than straight damage. The problem with sonic is you need a source for the sound to conjure it so it is probably best dropped as an orb spell.

The cold, acid, and fire orbs are really well done. You actually conjure up liquids to do the damage.

However, the orb of force is a little weird. The line between conjuring a force and evoking a force is very blurry. I think I'll just leave it at that for force.

Again very well done overall.

Well done, you made some cool spells, certainly better than the old original versions.

Nitpicking; your orb of fire is actually a orb of magma now, I think you should rename it :smalltongue:. An orb of fire feels more like evocation, although technically you would need a fuel as well, which would point towards conjuration.

The orb of force could have a bullrush effect, maybe explode and bullrush enemies away from the center.

Not sure I want to bother saying conjuration should not have SR:No spells again (see the other thread), but I will point out one thing:

So let me get this straight: Orb of Acid conjures normal non-magical acid so you have SR:No. But(!?!) you can dispell the normal non-magical acid once someone is immersed in it? If it is 'normal' acid dispel magic should have no effect. And for that matter anti-magic has no effect on mundane things like acid or fire....so why does it effect the spells.

Your going for the idea that:1. It takes a tiny drop of magic to conjure the real mundane stuff but 2. everything after that is 100% mundane and non magical.

Also if the Orb of X is just a 'normal orb of X' then you can't counterspell these spells right?

Status effects! Pseudo-paralysis for fire is weird but I think necessary (why are dragons immune to "paralysis" whyyyyy). Force tries to avoid stepping on forceful hand's toes with its bull rush; on the one hand, it's lower level and does a fair chunk of damage, on the other it takes until at least level 16 to even equal the Str check of forceful hand, which can also keep targeting the same or different creatures repeatedly for its duration.

Saves are all a bit odd but THEM'S THE BREAKS. (Suggestions for better saves would be much appreciated.)

Lesser orbs are updated! Let me know how those go.

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Originally Posted by ben-zayb

I just want to point out that even some of the mundane things that even commoners can do isn't even logically possible (e.g. swinging a weapon all day without tiring, not getting hurt hitting a wall repeatedly). So with that said, I really can't see any fixing needed for functionally sound spells. If we go by logical consistency, most [fire] spells should RAW-wise be called out as being able to provide at least some degree of illumination.

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Sure, why not? I'd support that.

Mind you, it's not really part of this fix per se.

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From a mechanical perspective I actually think that removing other energy orbs (electricity and sound) messed with one of the few spell lines (horizontal line, that is) that actually manages to attempt balancing energy representation.

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Balancing energy damage is a job for the spell system as a whole, I think; not every descriptor makes sense for every thematic idea. For example, in Core, you have a fog cloud that can poison, one that can corrode, and one that can burn. Out of core you get clouds that freeze and even shock, though they don't necessarily slow you down. What you don't get is a spell that, out of the box, blasts you with a cloud of sound energy. That's because that makes no sense.

I am not a fan of cookie-cutter CLd6 [fire/cold/acid/shock/sonic/force] damage + approximately similar rider; it feels, honestly, lazily interchangeable. There should be a little more going on than that.

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The addition of the [TP] description also makes the fire/cold orb line ineffective in certain situations (e.g. Dimensional Lock, Zone of Respite, etc), IMO further widening the gap in mechanical balance between the energies.

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I noticed that already, and find it amusing (and oddly compelling: it's a meaningful distinction that really does differentiate the spells in a subtle way, which is probably one of 3.x's best features). It may or may not balance out the spell level and damage; if you really really crave reliability, you should pay for it in some fashion, not get it for free on top of a bunch of other bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Just to Browse

Making it conjuration is funky, but I like it. As ben-zayb mentioned, I think this makes dimension lock a hilarious counter to the orb spells, but I like that flavor. The damage-per-round concept is also neat, making orbs good early in the fight.

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Sweet!

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Orbs are not all the same level. That's just off-putting.

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Given the constraints of acid/magma damage, this is more or less unavoidable. Unfortunate, but unavoidable.

Well, I suppose I could seriously crank up acid's round scaling, give it both Con damage and sickening/nauseating, and maybe add some other effect, but it would still probably not be the same level.

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Orb scaling is wonky. Lesser orbs should never be used, and the higher orbs come damage on the level of "Don't use this after you get your next orb". 10d6/r -> 20d6/r is kind of a big deal. Orb of Force is still bad unless you're the mailman.

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The lesser orbs haven't gotten as much attention yet, but I'll try to make them more interesting.

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There are no cc-riders. The whole reason I use orb spells (other than to eek out decent damage) is because the orbs could make combat something other than a HP-slogfest! Turning orb spells into DPR debuffs is cool, but I'd rather see no change in flavor but interesting status effects, instead of awesome flavor and status removal.

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Well now, I think that's something I can fix. Fire is about to get entangling/paralysis, acid probably sickened, and cold might apply a Dex penalty or something.

Although you know what, acid is already printed as usually being able to cause Con damage from fumes. Hmm. Nah, I'll just leave it as sickening for now, and in a nod to usability, avoid giving it a static DC. (It's not too horrible to suppose that a more talented mage can make a compound with a slightly more toxic vapor, I think.)

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Also, that crap is too fiddly. 1d4+1 rounds of 1d6 or 2d6 damage is not worth keeping track of at 11th level.

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Hmm. Might reduce it to a flat one or two rounds. I suppose I could remove it entirely, but that might be a little strange, since acid or magma or liquid nitrogen or whatever don't really go away instantly.

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Originally Posted by ddude987

I like the idea but I have some problems. Firstly, the rules state instantaneous creation effects are not affected by AMF so why make it different with these spells? If it is a mundane glob of acid why does it get broken up by the AMF? Also the orbs not being the same level and scaling as you level just feels off.

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Already addressed by others, I think.

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I am glad you left them as conjuration schooled spells. I think the orb spells are conjuration in flavor and should stay that way. Orb of fire, for example, is not fireball because fireball is a big explosion whereas orb of fire is just a ball of flame crashing into one person.

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Yup!

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Originally Posted by unbeliever536

The spells are affected during the casting (as is the case with most spells.) The way the magic works here, presumably, is that the Orb of Whatever is summoned by the caster, lobbed at somebody, and held together by magic for the duration of the flight (which is less than one round, so they're instantaneous in that they have no mechanical duration). Because it's held together by magic, an orb won't be totally effective inside and AMF...but it's still a ball of acid hurtling towards your face, so it's going to hurt a bit.

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Exactly. (Although see below for an additional wrinkle.)

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Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0

Wow, really well done. These orbs really do act like conjured things rather than a straight up evocation spell labeled conjuration.

Glad you got rid of electricity. I can't think of a way to conjure electricity. It might be possible to make a sonic orb, but it would probably be more debuffs than straight damage. The problem with sonic is you need a source for the sound to conjure it so it is probably best dropped as an orb spell.

The cold, acid, and fire orbs are really well done. You actually conjure up liquids to do the damage.

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:smallredface: That's great to hear!

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However, the orb of force is a little weird. The line between conjuring a force and evoking a force is very blurry. I think I'll just leave it at that for force.

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I did mark it Evocation, right? Maybe that should be clearer somehow.

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Originally Posted by Zakaroth

Well done, you made some cool spells, certainly better than the old original versions.

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:smallsmile:

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Nitpicking; your orb of fire is actually a orb of magma now, I think you should rename it :smalltongue:. An orb of fire feels more like evocation, although technically you would need a fuel as well, which would point towards conjuration.

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I'd rename it, but I want to make it clear that these replace the existing spells.

Although I suppose I could just say "Orb of fire: Doesn't exist". Hmm. Or even make a new orb of fire that pulls from the plane of fire specifically (3d10/round, lower level than acid).

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The orb of force could have a bullrush effect, maybe explode and bullrush enemies away from the center.

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I could have it bull-rush straight back, but it's a single-target spell, so no exploding.

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Originally Posted by jedipotter

Not sure I want to bother saying conjuration should not have SR:No spells again (see the other thread), but I will point out one thing:

So let me get this straight: Orb of Acid conjures normal non-magical acid so you have SR:No. But(!?!) you can dispell the normal non-magical acid once someone is immersed in it? If it is 'normal' acid dispel magic should have no effect. And for that matter anti-magic has no effect on mundane things like acid or fire....so why does it effect the spells.

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Not quite. You can't dispel the acid or magma or cold liquid, nor can you AMF them, or any other such thing. What you can do, though, is block the magic that normally a) holds them together in a tight orb and b) wraps them around the target on impact to immerse them.

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Your going for the idea that:1. It takes a tiny drop of magic to conjure the real mundane stuff but 2. everything after that is 100% mundane and non magical.

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Yes.

For a parallel, once you're cured by cure critical wounds, you stay cured, even if you're later subject to a dispel, an AMF, or whatever.

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Also if the Orb of X is just a 'normal orb of X' then you can't counterspell these spells right?

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Sure you can. Counterspelling is effective at blocking their creation/summoning, which is all you need it to do.

Orb of Force is too a high a level for what it does, and there's already a similar spell in the Spell Compendium, I think.

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Originally Posted by TuggyNE

I did mark it Evocation, right? Maybe that should be clearer somehow.

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Must of missed it. I wouldn't worry about it, I just miss random things like that for no reason sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Haldir

Orb of Force is too a high a level for what it does, and there's already a similar spell in the Spell Compendium, I think.

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Bull rushing one target per round at a (higher, but non-scaling, bonus) with no damage is a level 6 spell in Core. I think it's fine where it is, or maybe even too strong. Which spell were you thinking of, though? Melf's unicorn arrow? IIRC, that does lower damage and has a different scaling. Not sure what check bonus it has, though.

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Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0

Must of missed it. I wouldn't worry about it, I just miss random things like that for no reason sometimes.

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Ah, fair enough. But yeah, it's Evocation, effect is an orb of magical force, and it's SR:Yes, so mostly I think it should be clear enough.

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Originally Posted by TuggyNE

When immersed, the target suffers a 2d6 Dex penalty for the duration of immersion as their joints strain against the frigidity; a Fort save halves this. When merely exposed, they must make a Fort save or suffer a 1d3 Dex penalty for the duration of exposure.

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This feels...off to me. Someone hit by an Orb of Cold can suffer a steeper dex penalty for exposure than immersion, expecially if they make and then fail their save. I would just make the exposure penalty half of whatever they were suffering before.

Split off a new replacement for orb of fire that is now, well, fire. Still a bit rough.

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Originally Posted by unbeliever536

This feels...off to me. Someone hit by an Orb of Cold can suffer a steeper dex penalty for exposure than immersion, expecially if they make and then fail their save. I would just make the exposure penalty half of whatever they were suffering before.

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Or 1/4, I guess.

There still needs to be a listed Dex penalty for contact, since otherwise lesser orb of cold and AMF'd-orb of cold won't have anything to go on.

Whee, rejiggered the spells to emphasize their similarity and hopefully make it still more apparent that they are doing nothing but apply unusual physical objects to enemies in unpleasant ways (with the sole exception of Fire, which just kind of randomly applies a magical daze). Note that as a direct result of this, most of the spells have fixed saves/checks required, which probably limits their utility slightly, but hopefully improves their quirkiness. I'm rather happier with the freezing water rules, though that could still change some.

Also, note in passing that my homebrew now has an official legal notice in the collection.

Added a bit of a boon to those wishing to avoid busting all their enemies' equipment. Also, specific handling for swarms.

Any more comments or suggestions?