Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
So in the last session I DMed, my PCs helped rescue a common street urchin out of a bad situation. In the process, the warlock PC and (especially) the wizard PC impressed her with their abilities, and now she's looking to joining the local mage guild to start studying the arcane arts. (unbeknownst to the PCs - so if any of you are reading this, act surprised when you get back to town and meet her, OK?)
So, she's currently a rogue 4, nothing fancy about the build. Has the TWF feat, TW Defense, can't remember the other. What kind of build ideas do you have that could synergize with a sneaky street urchin? She was particularly impressed with the wizard's disintegrate that ended the encounter almost before it started (the wizard got two nat-20's in a row, confirming the crit on the disintegrate, the target rolled a one on the fort save... The average on the number of d6's he rolled was a good 50% more than the HP the target had...) so I am thinking she's going to want to be as zappy as possible and go for Spellwarp Sniper in the long run. Any ideas what to do in between? I know it isn't optimal, but I am looking for an interesting NPC for the party to occasionally interact with (and help her to understand when, and more importantly, when not to use her new found zappy powers.)
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer are the general go-tos. Daggerspell Mage is bleh but doable.
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Allanimal
So in the last session I DMed, my PCs helped rescue a common street urchin out of a bad situation. In the process, the warlock PC and (especially) the wizard PC impressed her with their abilities, and now she's looking to joining the local mage guild to start studying the arcane arts. (unbeknownst to the PCs - so if any of you are reading this, act surprised when you get back to town and meet her, OK?)
So, she's currently a rogue 4, nothing fancy about the build. Has the TWF feat, TW Defense, can't remember the other. What kind of build ideas do you have that could synergize with a sneaky street urchin? She was particularly impressed with the wizard's disintegrate that ended the encounter almost before it started (the wizard got two nat-20's in a row, confirming the crit on the disintegrate, the target rolled a one on the fort save... The average on the number of d6's he rolled was a good 50% more than the HP the target had...) so I am thinking she's going to want to be as zappy as possible and go for Spellwarp Sniper in the long run. Any ideas what to do in between? I know it isn't optimal, but I am looking for an interesting NPC for the party to occasionally interact with (and help her to understand when, and more importantly, when not to use her new found zappy powers.)
You could retrain the rogue.
In real time it takes about 2 months to get to level 20 (even though it sounds nuts. Not to weeb to hard, but think about it like the growth of an anime/manga character or something. A big training session can result in some tremendous growth, or if that is too much, an 80's training montage. Rocky got really good with the proper trainer.)
Have a week timeskip, and re-create the character back to level 4. Perhaps an enchantment wizard(spontaneous divination for scouting/stalking) with factotum 1 to start off to keep that skilled feeling.
Maybe the rogue spent all of the money it had acquired pilfering and such to get to pay for tutoring lessons at the local wizard college.
In fact, I find it best to think of level 20, not as a stupendously advanced place, but equivalent to a bachelors degree, or a black belt. It is not the end of mastery, but the true beginning of competency. In the DND world, there are just things that one can learn a LOT easier than here, or to be more clear, Things like magic are not as hard to learn as more technical things in our world.
Generally, it is a hate of epic rules that keeps people's mindset locked in the idea that level 20 is the end all be all of skill in combat and personal growth in DND, but you can hand wave that.
Also, without research, level 20 wizards only have 40 spells. In the computing world that could be seen as a programmer only knowing 40 functions/applications of codes. Not bad it 2 months. Real wizard growth comes from researching spells, as their true end comes from learning ALL wizard spells. THAT is when a wizard is done. So level 20 shouldn't be so frightening in that aspect, for our most academic of classes.
it is strong and versatile, yes, but no destroyer of worlds.
So to close, just have a little timeskip where the Rogue goes and retrains. Doesn't have to be a long time. And you don't have to change the personality of the character. I might take a few engineering classes, but that doesn't mean my personality changes. If I was sneaky and what not before none of that might change.
Maintain the same look. No need to be cliche and wear a wizard robe and hat.
Keep that person in rogue leathers, continue carrying a dagger, Add a component pouch and bag of holding that just looks like load bearing gear (Think military chest rigs/rucksacks) , and become more of a magical assassin, rather than a whizzard .
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Believe me, I am all for high-powered and high-level games and I skew my world and NPCs as such (i.e. regular people top out at level 7ish instead of 6, The captain of the guard could be level 11, higher level people aren't unheard of at all. It's a dangerous place and heroes abound! Somewhat Forgotten Realmsish in that sense).
As such, the idea that level 20 is the beginning of mastery is absurd. Being able to WTFBBQPWN hydras and grandmasters left and right and not even get experience for it takes a lot more than a black belt, you know? Being level 20 means one could reasonable roll Solars and Pit Fiends, the paramount of extra-planar champions just before the actual champions and princes of darkness. It just doesn't follow.
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Switch her to Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 1. If using Sorcerer she'll need one more level of Unseen Seer, but otherwise she'll be ready to jump right into Spellwarp Sniper. This has just as much sneak attack and BAB as a Rogue 4, more HP and skill points, and only slightly different base saving throws. She'll lose Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, but those aren't all that noticeable.
Sorcerer is actually preferred for this build, due to the Rules Compendium's ruling on precision damage with abilities that make multiple attacks (page 42, last entry on the page):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rules Compendium
A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.
If you cast Scorching Ray (standard action) you only apply sneak attack to the first attack it makes, but if a Sorcerer casts Scorching Ray with a metamagic feat (full-round action), such as Split Ray or Invisible Spell, he gets to add his sneak attack damage to every attack it makes.
If you want to catch her up to a comparable level with the party, Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 2 or 3 is where I would put her. She can TWF with a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes and still have a hand free to cast spells, and even take Double Wand Wielder in CA. Consider the Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM, so she gets an at-will ranged attack that can deliver sneak attack, and use something like Acid Splash + Heighten Spell to always count her highest level available spell slot for activating it. Her go-to though should be Scorching Ray with either Invisible Spell for sneaking or Split Ray for more damage. Definitely include Greater Invisibility among the spells she knows.
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Optimator
Believe me, I am all for high-powered and high-level games and I skew my world and NPCs as such (i.e. regular people top out at level 7ish instead of 6, The captain of the guard could be level 11, higher level people aren't unheard of at all. It's a dangerous place and heroes abound! Somewhat Forgotten Realmsish in that sense).
As such, the idea that level 20 is the beginning of mastery is absurd. Being able to WTFBBQPWN hydras and grandmasters left and right and not even get experience for it takes a lot more than a black belt, you know? Being level 20 means one could reasonable roll Solars and Pit Fiends, the paramount of extra-planar champions just before the actual champions and princes of darkness. It just doesn't follow.
Who is able to do that?
Fighters? No... Rogues? In the right situation.
Level 20 is good for full casters.
I said black belt right? Now here is a question. You have 20 black belts in a room VS a 10 year old child with a proper modern ranged load out. You teach him for 4 Weeks how to shoot. Meanwhile Each Black belt has been trained for 10 years. They are good too.
Bet money that the kid kills them all.
And that is the difference between the Magical and Mundane in DND. Level 20 fighter is NOTHING compared to a level 20 Wizard. You know this, and the same goes for the rogue.
Furthermore, the Level 20 wizard still has more to learn, while the other classes bottom out.
Perhaps Black belt was a loaded way to explain what I meant. The fighter would definitely be on a black belt level of experience in our real world, but the wizard is more like a CIA agent in comparison.
The difference is in the skills they develop, and the amount of applications, not exactly the amount of experience they have. The amount is the same. What they learned is different.
And that Is why I say level 20 is the beginning of mastery, because there are more levels, and even at 20, wizard isn't finished.
Re: Rogue + Arcaney Build Ideas
Thanks for the ideas everyone. I think Unseen Seer looks good.
I don't plan on having this NPC catch up to or overtake the PCs in level - she might get a bit closer tho (4th vs 14th is a big gap).
She's mainly meant to be a source of plot hooks for the PCs, so doesn't need to come anywhere near their level of ability - but she should be able to get herself into trouble and need rescuing. (Whether that's getting bailed out of the city jail or saved from the BBEG's clutches or something in between, that's all yet to be decided).
