Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

~"Jon is white and Daenerys is red."

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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

YMMV. Malifice would probably describe her as Black, what with the power-hunger he places at the center of her character.

(I, of course, will not try, not having seen enough of the show.)

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I can see a wee bit of black (keywords: pragmatism, selfishness at the expense of others, and amorality), but I think that she is a lot closer to red (keywords: impulse, emotional action, chaos, spontaneous action, freedom, action, and short sighted). She loves fire and dragons. So she uses dragons and fire to solve her problems . . . you know the fun way.

~"If a dragon does not want you to ride it, then you die! Lets go ride dragons!" <she is a bit crazy in the chasing danger thing, and she could have also read the body language of the dragon>

Fire (red)
Dragons (red)
Freedom though Action (red)
Living though Being Present (red)

Red and white both value Heroism
Chaos (red) over Order (white)
Libertarian (red) over Authoritarian (white)
Red sees white as Repressed, white sees red as Aimless
Red sees white as Compromising, white sees red as Inconsiderate

Below are the WotC core keywords for the colors.

Black
[B] Pragmatism
[B] Selfishness at the expense of others
[B] Amorality
[B] Selfishness above all else
[B] Selfishness
[B] Omnipotence
[B] Paranoia

Red
[R] Impulse
[R] Emotional Action
[R] Chaos
[R] Spontaneous Action
[R] Freedom
[R] Action
[R] Short Sighted

White
[W] Morality
[W] Laws of God
[W] Laws of Spirit
[W] Order
[W] Laws of Man
[W] Uncreative
[W] Peace
[W] Law

Blue [U]
[U] Logic
[U] Intellectual Theory
[U] Technology
[U] Intellectual Application
[U] Intellect
[U] Omniscience
[U] Inaction

Green
[G] Instinct
[G] Natural Decisions
[G] Interdependence
[G] Natural Survival
[G] Naive
[G] Growth
[G] Nature

Dany didn't work for anything.

I think you revisionist history is going haywire.

First of, Dany did make herself equal to to Drogo. Yeah, she was dealt a crappy hand. But she didn't fight, or lead anyone. She pretty much slept herself to the top, and then was dotted over by him. She even got him killed. She didn't hatch the eggs either, in so much as tried to kill herself, and Opps dragons happened. She didn't outsmart anyone in Qarth… They were killed by a guy who happen to want Dany, again, who got that position because people wanted to sleep with her. She only survived that because she happened to have dragons... and again. dragons happened. Again, she didn't really outsmart the Masters, in somuch as...dragons happened. She didn't win the city insomuch as people took advantages of her being there. She didn't kill anyone insomuch as happen to have a superpower no one knew about.

Dany has always just have stuff happen around her, and just happen to have abilities that give her more power by dint of just... existing.

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Originally Posted by Kyberwulf

Dany didn't work for anything.

I think you revisionist history is going haywire.

First of, Dany did make herself equal to to Drogo. Yeah, she was dealt a crappy hand. But she didn't fight, or lead anyone. She pretty much slept herself to the top, and then was dotted over by him. She even got him killed. She didn't hatch the eggs either, in so much as tried to kill herself, and Opps dragons happened. She didn't outsmart anyone in Qarth… They were killed by a guy who happen to want Dany, again, who got that position because people wanted to sleep with her. She only survived that because she happened to have dragons... and again. dragons happened. Again, she didn't really outsmart the Masters, in somuch as...dragons happened. She didn't win the city insomuch as people took advantages of her being there. She didn't kill anyone insomuch as happen to have a superpower no one knew about.

Dany has always just have stuff happen around her, and just happen to have abilities that give her more power by dint of just... existing.

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That reading of events is absolutely, terribly, ridiculously inaccurate.

1. Dany won acceptance within Dothraki culture despite being an outsider. Yes she seduced Drogo, but she also moved from the position of concubine to khaleesi on her own initiative. The scene of her eating the horse heart, among others, was intended to illustrate this.
2. Drogo got killed because he suffered an injury that became seriously infected. Dany tried to save him but failed.
3. The dragons may have been an unexpected bonus, but walking into the pyre was a deliberate move based on her immunity to fire, one that resulted in her acquiring authority over the surviving Dothraki of Drogo's khalasar rather than getting shipped off to spend the rest of her life among the crones as Vas Dothrak.
4. In Qarth various people attempt to eliminate Dany so as to separate her from her dragons and take control of them. While the dragons are important to her survival she successfully navigates the House of the Undying.
5. In Astapor she bargains with the Masters to obtain Unsullied and deliberately structures the deal so she obtains every last one of the Unsullied, giving her control of the entirety of the city's armed forces by appearing to be far less intelligent than she is. The resulting double cross isn't very subtle, but it works because the Masters cannot even conceive of someone trying to destroy the entire Slaver's Bay economic system in the way Dany does. This is probably her biggest achievement in the whole series and is a one-sided coup that matches or exceeds any similar action by any other character.

Yes, Dany has access to two superpowers - her innate heat resistance (which she later used to take control of the Dothraki hordes) and her control of her dragons, and she has relied on them fairly heavily. However, she's used those abilities effectively and she's hardly the only character wielding supernatural powers in the series. Cersei has utilized wildfire (and benefitted from Tyrion using it before her) and has an undead bodyguard. Jon Snow is a warg, has a direwolf familiar, and got brought back from the dead. Melisandre used the Lord of Light's powers extensively to aid Stannis and hurt the other claimants (Renly had overwhelming numeric superiority prior to getting shadow-ganked). Bran went through a transformation into a semi-divine entity who can reach across time.

The show has oversimplified some of Dany's later achievements. Her coup in Vas Dothrak to gain control of the Dothraki and her subsequent destruction of the invading fleets in slavers bay were grossly oversimplified (in the books, the gradual collapse of the invasion of Mereen unfolds excruciatingly slowly and Dany hasn't gained control of the Dothraki yet), but the same is true of roughly everything in the post-book seasons. Euron's rise to seizure of power and his motives, for example.

By any reasonable metric Dany truly has accomplished a great deal, and she's done so despite a lack of reliable allies, a series of exceedingly painful betrayals, and a societal structure dramatically opposed to most of her goals (at least until she gets out of Mereen).

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Originally Posted by Kyberwulf

Dany didn't work for anything.

I think you revisionist history is going haywire.

First of, Dany did make herself equal to to Drogo. Yeah, she was dealt a crappy hand. But she didn't fight, or lead anyone. She pretty much slept herself to the top, and then was dotted over by him. She even got him killed.

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Precisely, Dany dared to defy the mighty Drogo's decisions and could actually make him change his mind. Other people who tried to do so were the ones that got killed.:smallamused:

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Originally Posted by Kyberwulf

She didn't hatch the eggs either, in so much as tried to kill herself, and Opps dragons happened.

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She already knew she was fireproof with several hints dropped over the series and although it was a risky move taking the eggs too, notice she could've just sold them and retired for a nice comfy life, so she basically went for high risk, high reward. There's a reason nobody else managed to hatch dragon eggs until then, they didn't dare just throwing them at a big fire with other people inside.

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Originally Posted by Kyberwulf

She didn't outsmart anyone in Qarth… They were killed by a guy who happen to want Dany, again, who got that position because people wanted to sleep with her. She only survived that because she happened to have dragons... and again. dragons happened. Again, she didn't really outsmart the Masters, in somuch as...dragons happened. She didn't win the city insomuch as people took advantages of her being there. She didn't kill anyone insomuch as happen to have a superpower no one knew about.

Dany has always just have stuff happen around her, and just happen to have abilities that give her more power by dint of just... existing.

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She's had her share of good luck yes, but she's also been bold enough to seize the opportunities when they show up whereas somebody of weaker will may've just sold the eggs/dragons at multiple points and retired to a comfy life. Multiple people try to control Dany but she always stand her ground in one way or the other. Dany never breaks under pressure, she keeps pushing forward and getting back up when she trips, and that's all being a young teenager girl.

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Originally Posted by Mechalich

That reading of events is absolutely, terribly, ridiculously inaccurate.

1. Dany won acceptance within Dothraki culture despite being an outsider. Yes she seduced Drogo, but she also moved from the position of concubine to khaleesi on her own initiative. The scene of her eating the horse heart, among others, was intended to illustrate this.

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I'd say the bit that really shows this comes a bit earlier. It's when they're riding on the plains and Viserys comes over to pester her. She's shown wearing Dothraki clothing which is suitable for the climate, is now very fit and athletic compared to the pampered city girl she was, and is utterly at ease on her horse.

Viserys by comparison is still wearing Western clothing that is horribly uncomfortable in the heat, is out of breath because he hasn't taken the time to get fit and adapt to the lifestyle, and still sucks at riding a horse. Oh, and he's drunk.

Dany took being sold as a sex slave and turned it into a true alliance. If Khal Drogo had lived, I'm not actually sure she would have continued to press for rulership of the Seven Kingdoms.

fyi Daenerys was never a concubine and she earned the title of "khaleesi", which means a wife a "khal", by being forced into a marriage she didn't want. That title didn't make her equal to a khal and it's well known to both the readers & watchers that Drogo seduced her consent out of her on their wedding night. After becoming pregnant she merely indulged Dothraki tradition, but a turning point for her character came days before that when she dreamed of a dragon.

The RR Martrin also teases her immunity to fire clear back to the first time she was shown. The servants warn her the bath water is scalding, but she likes it.

Now I want some giant's milk.:smallwink::smalltongue:

Interesting reveal from Bran tonight:

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He refers to himself as "the world's memory" and says that is what the Night King wants the most. Up until now it just seemed like he wanted to extinguish all life, which he of course could do safely behind his massive zombie army without risking himself as the army's locus. The fact that he'd put himself at risk to nab Bran feels like a new development.

Other highlights:

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Brienne finally getting knighted.

Sansa and Dany, the two most powerful women in the castle, sitting down to hash out their differences like adults.

Arya and Gendry :smallredface:

Lyanna and Jorah, followed by Sam and Jorah.

Jaime and Brienne, and I was a firm Jienne shipper ever since Clash of Kings Storm of Swords.

"Giant's Milk." Tormund continues to be an everlasting font of memes.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

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The fact that he'd put himself at risk to nab Bran feels like a new development.

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You mean since the last time?

The Night King has always gotten involved in fights. He hangs back slightly, letting his wights to most of the leg work but as Jon tried to make it to the boats at Hardhome the Night King had already proceeded out onto the field. He led the assault on the last three eyed raven and personally stepped up to kill Viserion. I have no problems seeing him take to the field after a the wights wear down the ironborn if it gives him a chance to kill Bran.

Anyone still doubt my Dany theory?

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Originally Posted by Malifice

Anyone still doubt my Dany theory?

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Is that the one where

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She is the bad guy?
Because I don't think you can use that determiner given the thousands of people that arrived to the same conclusion on their own and have been sharing it since 2011 (or like 1998 for the book readers). You should look up dragon dreams on the fire & ice wiki, it has a few key quotes you'll be interested in.

Remember, from Dany's end she is predestined for it. The god(s) even sent her a red comet to know she was on the right path according to her.

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Originally Posted by Mato

Is that the one where

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That's the one.

Spoiler: Dany

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She's barely controllable now even surrounded by good advisers. It's abundantly clear that the whole 'breaking of the wheel thing' is all but a sham now, and she wants power for powers sake.

She's going down the path of her dad.

They've been headed this way with her character for the past few seasons, with increasing intensity. She is all but certain to turn on Jon during the war. She's also aware that both Brandon and Sam know as well; with Jon telling her that they're the only two others who know (not a good revelation for the health of either of those two guys is my guess.)

Set up brilliantly for the war next week, to add an extra layer of conflict into the battle.

My guess is she (without her goodly advisers to tell her otherwise - Jorah will be in battle, Tyrion will be in the Crypts, Arys will be elsewhere) tries to nip this in the bud, using violence (and likely fire).

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Originally Posted by Mato

Is that the one where

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She is the bad guy?
Because I don't think you can use that determiner given the thousands of people that arrived to the same conclusion on their own and have been sharing it since 2011 (or like 1998 for the book readers). You should look up dragon dreams on the fire & ice wiki, it has a few key quotes you'll be interested in.

Remember, from Dany's end she is predestined for it. The god(s) even sent her a red comet to know she was on the right path according to her.

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After getting into long arguments about certain characters in OOTS, I'll just say this franchise really differs in it's handling of messiah-complex women with a penchant for obliterating their enemies.

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Originally Posted by Malifice

That's the one.

Spoiler: Dany

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She's barely controllable now even surrounded by good advisers. It's abundantly clear that the whole 'breaking of the wheel thing' is all but a sham now, and she wants power for powers sake.

She's going down the path of her dad.

They've been headed this way with her character for the past few seasons, with increasing intensity. She is all but certain to turn on Jon during the war. She's also aware that both Brandon and Sam know as well; with Jon telling her that they're the only two others who know (not a good revelation for the health of either of those two guys is my guess.)

Set up brilliantly for the war next week, to add an extra layer of conflict into the battle.

My guess is she (without her goodly advisers to tell her otherwise - Jorah will be in battle, Tyrion will be in the Crypts, Arys will be elsewhere) tries to nip this in the bud, using violence (and likely fire).

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It is rather obvious, isn't it?

My hope is that she starts out that way but changes her mind/redeems herself before all is lost, without going full Heel.


Oh, one item I forgot above - Ghost is back!!!!

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Originally Posted by Malifice

'Might makes right' and 'inflicting horrible tortures on your enemies' are things that are evil and wrong.

If Dany was in a RPG and learnt might makes right and to inflict horrible tortures on people due to her time living with Orcs, we'd call her alignment 'Evil'.

I dont think she is 'Evilly aligned'. I think she's Neutral (she switches between terrible acts and urges, and acts of genuine altruism and compassion). She's largely after the Throne for her own reasons however.

Her arc is going to be intresting this season.

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I suspect that Daenerys wants to do good but was taking leadership lessons from the Dothraki, where mercy is seen as weakness. She will offer a choice, often generous, but if you reject her offer you are met with death. Similar to the Khals who rejected her offer of wealth to help her; instead telling Daenerys they'd all (and if I remember, their horses) rape her.

Those Khals then all died in flames.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

It (Dany) is rather obvious, isn't it?

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Man it's weird you guys are saying that because I walked away from the episode

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with the impression she was doing better this week. She listened to Jorah and made at least vaguely nice with Sansa, felt like progress.

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Army of the dead coming? Let's hide all the women and children in A CRYPT. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

So at some point, I assume during the Night King's attack on Bran, those bodies are going to get up. Probably the crypt is under the godswood, and unless I'm mistaken we've seen the Night King reanimate bodies outside of touch range.

This'll also somehow be while Bronn is attempting to crossbow Tyrion and he'll be forced to put his mission aside to help rescue the women and children, along with that one fierce-as-fudge little girl and Tyrion.

The CRYPT?

https://www.bingeclock.com/memes/arr...ge_mistake.jpg

Has anyone spotted Bronn in any backgrounds this episode or last? He's lurking around out there somewhere, right?

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Originally Posted by Otomodachi

Man it's weird you guys are saying that because I walked away from the episode

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with the impression she was doing better this week. She listened to Jorah and made at least vaguely nice with Sansa, felt like progress.

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I agree Otomodachi.

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Dany listened to wise counsel and went to improve relations with Sansa. Sansa's turn at the end of that conversation would surely be upsetting. Dany is having the conversation in good faith. Dany *already* rules the North, as evidenced by the King in the North bending the knee and becoming Warden of the North, and by everyone calling her "Your Grace" and standing or bowing as she stands/enters. For Sansa's voice to suddenly get firm and terse and for her to say the North took its land back and doesn't want to be ruled by the Iron Throne is out of left field and quite frankly doesn't make sense. Dany already rules them, one, and two, who will oppose Dany's rule? Jon Snow won't, since he already bent the knee. What leader will the North rally behind to stay separate from the other six kingdoms? Sansa will lead a campaign against Dany's forces after they defeat the Night King and Cersei?

Truly a stupid conversation and of course, like every other conversation in this show, it serves simply to elicit an emotional reaction from Dany and then it gets interrupted and there is no resolution.

After this, we have Jon Snow predictably telling Dany at the most inopportune time that he is the actual heir to the Iron Throne. Honestly, if Dany's reaction here is supposed to signal to us that she is becoming unhinged, the writers are worse than even I thought. Everything that Dany has accomplished has been for that throne. Her focus and determination to claim her birthright is what got her through all of the trials and tribulations that she has been through. To be told, suddenly and out of left field, that actually this isn't your birthright, it's mine, is a staggering blow. It calls into question her very identity and everything she struggled to attain. Did she go through all of that just to have someone else claim the throne for themselves? It belongs to Dany by birthright, and she amassed great power and resources to take it. Now she learns that it actually isn't her birthright. Where does that leave her?

This would be jarring, to say the least, and it is perfectly reasonable for her to be angry in this scene. And despite that she still cooperates with Jon as soon as the White Walkers appear.

I'm really not seeing the descent into madness angle.

As for Arya... isn't she, like, 14 or 15 at best now? She was twelve in the beginning and I don't think the show's taken more than two or three years so far. At least Gilly's baby is still a newborn, and no one else seems much aged either.

Arya is supposed to be 18 in the show I believe. I think eight years are supposed to have passed in the show since season 1. Don't quote me on that thought.

nice song too, very reminescent of return of the king - which is probably another death flag for a lot of characters.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai

I agree Otomodachi.

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Dany listened to wise counsel and went to improve relations with Sansa. Sansa's turn at the end of that conversation would surely be upsetting. Dany is having the conversation in good faith. Dany *already* rules the North, as evidenced by the King in the North bending the knee and becoming Warden of the North, and by everyone calling her "Your Grace" and standing or bowing as she stands/enters. For Sansa's voice to suddenly get firm and terse and for her to say the North took its land back and doesn't want to be ruled by the Iron Throne is out of left field and quite frankly doesn't make sense. Dany already rules them, one, and two, who will oppose Dany's rule? Jon Snow won't, since he already bent the knee. What leader will the North rally behind to stay separate from the other six kingdoms? Sansa will lead a campaign against Dany's forces after they defeat the Night King and Cersei?

Truly a stupid conversation and of course, like every other conversation in this show, it serves simply to elicit an emotional reaction from Dany and then it gets interrupted and there is no resolution.

After this, we have Jon Snow predictably telling Dany at the most inopportune time that he is the actual heir to the Iron Throne. Honestly, if Dany's reaction here is supposed to signal to us that she is becoming unhinged, the writers are worse than even I thought. Everything that Dany has accomplished has been for that throne. Her focus and determination to claim her birthright is what got her through all of the trials and tribulations that she has been through. To be told, suddenly and out of left field, that actually this isn't your birthright, it's mine, is a staggering blow. It calls into question her very identity and everything she struggled to attain. Did she go through all of that just to have someone else claim the throne for themselves? It belongs to Dany by birthright, and she amassed great power and resources to take it. Now she learns that it actually isn't her birthright. Where does that leave her?

This would be jarring, to say the least, and it is perfectly reasonable for her to be angry in this scene. And despite that she still cooperates with Jon as soon as the White Walkers appear.

I'm really not seeing the descent into madness angle.

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Indeed, plus

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Danny did let Jammie "I killed your daddy with my own hands and would do so again" Lannister live after listening for several other important people vouch for him instead of starting to scream the queen demanded a blonde barbecue.

Number of people executed/burned by Dany since she arrived at Winterfell: still zero.

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Originally Posted by Eldan

As for Arya... isn't she, like, 14 or 15 at best now? She was twelve in the beginning and I don't think the show's taken more than two or three years so far. At least Gilly's baby is still a newborn, and no one else seems much aged either.

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She's 18, but even if she wasn't - it says something about our society that getting a little nookie had everyone Googling her age, but butchering other humans to serve in a pie to their father didn't.

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Originally Posted by deuterio12

Number of people executed/burned by Dany since she arrived at Winterfell: still zero.

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That's a bit of a low bar though.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

She's 18, but even if she wasn't - it says something about our society that getting a little nookie had everyone Googling her age, but butchering other humans to serve in a pie to their father didn't.

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To be fair, this is an oddly recurrent trope, from Tantalus to Titus Andronicus to Sweeney Todd to Eric Cartman. No wonder we're desensitized to it.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

She's 18, but even if she wasn't - it says something about our society that getting a little nookie had everyone Googling her age, but butchering other humans to serve in a pie to their father didn't.

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Pfffft, I learned to cook WAY before I had sex, seems legit to me. :P

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Originally Posted by deuterio12

Indeed, plus

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Danny did let Jammie "I killed your daddy with my own hands and would do so again" Lannister live after listening for several other important people vouch for him instead of starting to scream the queen demanded a blonde barbecue.

Number of people executed/burned by Dany since she arrived at Winterfell: still zero.

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Right.

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The Lannisters betrayed her father. Tywin sacked the city when he was let into King's Landing, and Jaime stabbed the Mad King in the back. The Lannisters are generally the most hated family in Westeros. What does Dany do when she is presented with Tyrion? She takes him in. What does she do when she is presented with Jaime? She takes him in.

Other times that she has forgiven transgressions is when she forgave Jorah Mormont and took him back, and when she accepted Varys even though he tried to have her killed. She took in Barristan Selmy who failed to fulfill his sworn duty and protect her father. These are not the actions of a mad queen.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

That's a bit of a low bar though.

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Sort of like looking angry when people upset her is a low bar.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

She's 18, but even if she wasn't - it says something about our society that getting a little nookie had everyone Googling her age, but butchering other humans to serve in a pie to their father didn't.

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At least she isn't drinking booze! Old enough to f*** and make fresh human meat pies, still not old enough for a cup of wine.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

That's a bit of a low bar though.

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Not by Westeros standards where a marriage that doesn't end with a pile of corpses is considered quite the dull affair.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai

Right.

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The Lannisters betrayed her father. Tywin sacked the city when he was let into King's Landing, and Jaime stabbed the Mad King in the back. The Lannisters are generally the most hated family in Westeros. What does Dany do when she is presented with Tyrion? She takes him in. What does she do when she is presented with Jaime? She takes him in.

Other times that she has forgiven transgressions is when she forgave Jorah Mormont and took him back, and when she accepted Varys even though he tried to have her killed. She took in Barristan Selmy who failed to fulfill his sworn duty and protect her father. These are not the actions of a mad queen.

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There's also

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Dany being willing to trust Cersei out of all people.

One thing I found in this episode, and to some extent the last one as well, is how superficially the question of Northern independence has been handled. Dany wants the North to submit to her for the simple reason that Torrhen Stark knelt to Aegon the Conquerer and acknowledged him as his king three hundred years earlier and therefore the North is considered part of her kingdom. Sansa, and essentially everyone supporting her, wants to be independent because they chose to say 'F-that' after Joeffery had Ned's head cut off and the War of the Five Kings made it appear that no strong claimants to the Targaryen legacy remained. The troubling part is, these reasons are all about the personal politics of the nobility, and no effort whatsoever has been made to address whether it would be better for either the northerners or for the rest of Westeros to allow northern independence or not.

Would it be economically beneficial for the realms to remain united? Or would they prosper apart? It's entirely unknown. Likewise while it's certainly advantageous for the defense against the White Walkers for the North to remain allied with the rest of Westeros, that threat is presumably going to vanish if anyone actually survives the next couple episodes and its unclear if it benefits the common defense of the North or the other Kingdoms through unity or independence. This contrasts with the issue of the Iron Islands, where membership in a united Westeros clearly benefits everyone else at the expense of the Ironborn by prohibiting their raiding.

These are the kind of issues that someone like Tyrion or Varys ought to raise, so that Dany could make her case, and that Sansa should have raised via a Maester or Bran or something regarding her side. For example, if the supply situation truly is precarious, then Dany could offer to spend massive amounts of gold having food shipped to the North from Essos in return for acknowledgment of her rule.

Right now it feels like the principle characters are reduced to glaring at each other and making demands and threats because even though they should have plenty to negotiate over, no one in the show is willing to talk about those items. I mean there are all sorts of things Dany could do. For instance, she appears to have give Jon the title of Warden of the North - he's referred to this way in the most recent episode, but that title was stripped from the Starks by Tommen and given to the Boltons. Officially proclaimed that she'd given it back, and signing a proclamation claiming the title belonged to the Starks in perpetuity, might go a long way to winning hearts and minds.

Man I leave for a few days and wow this place blows up.

It’s interesting for me to see so many sides of this debate going on that basically streamline her story to fit Dany into a specific archetype of the Good King and the Bad King when it seems pretty obvious that she is a complicated heavily flawed human.

Is Dany often stupidly ruthless in the pursuit of her power? Yes.
Does Dany truly desire the betterment of her people? Yes.

These are not mutually exclusive, and it’s odd seeing people arguing that they are. What this comes down to at the conclusion of her arc is how these tensions will end up. Will she end up choosing people or power? And I think the show has done a pretty good job showing that tension in her actions. She has a moment with Sansa and it is heartfelt. She did put her ambitions on hold to go help people. That’s great! But when confronted with the possible need to abandon her ambition completely? First by Sansa then later by Jon, that’s the final big question of her character. And I’m interested in seeing how it plays out.

Now I’ll admit I’m anti-Dany, I don’t want her to sit on the throne in the end. But I like to think I’m not blinded to her clearly presented good qualities as a conqueror and leader. My criticism largely has to do with the narrative bending over backwards to shield her from the clear negative consequences of her actions.

By the way, she’s White/Red/Red/Black were she a MTG character.

As for the episode. I enjoyed it. Dolorous Edd got a line that was actually dolorous. And Tormund finally got one of his insane stories told in full. I’ve been waiting for that since the characters were first introduced. Also Arya got laid and Brienne knighted or some crap. But really Edd and Tormund acting like their book counterparts, truly the highlights of the episode.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

She's 18, but even if she wasn't - it says something about our society that getting a little nookie had everyone Googling her age, but butchering other humans to serve in a pie to their father didn't.



That's a bit of a low bar though.

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My thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by Mechalich

One thing I found in this episode, and to some extent the last one as well, is how superficially the question of Northern independence has been handled. Dany wants the North to submit to her for the simple reason that Torrhen Stark knelt to Aegon the Conquerer and acknowledged him as his king three hundred years earlier and therefore the North is considered part of her kingdom. Sansa, and essentially everyone supporting her, wants to be independent because they chose to say 'F-that' after Joeffery had Ned's head cut off and the War of the Five Kings made it appear that no strong claimants to the Targaryen legacy remained. The troubling part is, these reasons are all about the personal politics of the nobility, and no effort whatsoever has been made to address whether it would be better for either the northerners or for the rest of Westeros to allow northern independence or not.

Would it be economically beneficial for the realms to remain united? Or would they prosper apart? It's entirely unknown. Likewise while it's certainly advantageous for the defense against the White Walkers for the North to remain allied with the rest of Westeros, that threat is presumably going to vanish if anyone actually survives the next couple episodes and its unclear if it benefits the common defense of the North or the other Kingdoms through unity or independence. This contrasts with the issue of the Iron Islands, where membership in a united Westeros clearly benefits everyone else at the expense of the Ironborn by prohibiting their raiding.

These are the kind of issues that someone like Tyrion or Varys ought to raise, so that Dany could make her case, and that Sansa should have raised via a Maester or Bran or something regarding her side. For example, if the supply situation truly is precarious, then Dany could offer to spend massive amounts of gold having food shipped to the North from Essos in return for acknowledgment of her rule.

Right now it feels like the principle characters are reduced to glaring at each other and making demands and threats because even though they should have plenty to negotiate over, no one in the show is willing to talk about those items. I mean there are all sorts of things Dany could do. For instance, she appears to have give Jon the title of Warden of the North - he's referred to this way in the most recent episode, but that title was stripped from the Starks by Tommen and given to the Boltons. Officially proclaimed that she'd given it back, and signing a proclamation claiming the title belonged to the Starks in perpetuity, might go a long way to winning hearts and minds.

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To provide the most obvious defence for the lack of depth, it's the Bran one: we don't have time for that, we've only got 5 episodes left. The writers have been hammering pretty hard the idea that it's questionable whether anyone's actually going to survive the war, and therefore asking otherwise entirely logical questions like "Um, how do we go forward from here with an entire compass point in more-or-less open rebellion against the Iron Throne" are thrown aside BECAUSE NIGHT KING!

All of the points you're putting forward at the moment are questions you'd expect if the show was still the same one we saw in Season 1 or 2. Season 8 is low-budget Lord of the Rings, it's time to dispense with character moments or nuance or tension between individual pride and group survival, i.e. do I be a stubborn Northman, or do I swear allegiance so my stubborn people survive. The last embers of that tension flickered out when Jon bent the knee (and a lot of other things) in Daenerys's cabin, despite Sophie Turner making a heroic effort to suggest across these past two episodes the question is still an open one.

That said, let's do some speculation, since the show isn't likely to ...

(1) I'm not sure whether the unity of the realms (i.e. having the North as a vassal state) to begin with was so much about economic benefits as it was a sheer strategic sunk-cost for owning the whole continent. The North can be all but closed to foot traffic by closing Moat Cailin. It's only because of suspiciously-convenient historical/genetic dislike for boats that the North hasn't been beating the snot out of the Ironborn and/or the southern kingdoms with hundreds of miles of coastline open for naval superiority and unstoppable access to Essos across the Narrow Sea. It's suggested the population density of the North is low, and there isn't a hell of a lot economically that seems to come out of the joint, the Targaryens seem to hold it mainly because if they don't, someone else likely will as a forward base for campaigns against the south. The North has always struck me as a subsistence sort of nation at best; they've got barely enough to survive winters, but they haven't got enough spare capital or really arable land to provide a surplus and therefore prosperity.

(2) If the primary issue with the Ironborn is that they don't have enough resources to survive on the Islands, then the logical choice seems to be to give them some vacant land on the continent from an extinct house or two and slowly change their culture from raiding-based to trading-based as a result. The Ironborn haven't always been confined to the Islands: recall that Harrenhal was built by Harren the Black, completed the day that Aegon first landed. Remove the need to raid, turn the Ironborn into traders rather than raiders, and they can both keep the islands and bring relative peace to the realms. The objection to this is obviously that this is naive interventionism, which never ends well, but the issue would be interesting to see played out.

(3) With the suggestion that Daenerys basically buys off the North given that winter is coming, that would be interesting because you could bring back the concerns about taking big loans out, i.e. let the Iron Bank come back into the picture. On one hand you'd have Varys pointing out this is for the good of the realm and it's the simplest way to bring peace with the North, and on the other Tyrion could draw on his experiences as the Master of Coin and cautioning wariness with solving problems via massive injections of money: "Take it from me, my Queen. Spending a lot of gold at best makes you only temporary friendships, and when it comes to the Iron Bank, in the end they always take much more than they first give."