Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

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Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

When Redcloak said that the rift had already grown to be massive. There is only so much you can show in a strip panel.

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It does not look so massive. Certainly not enough that it should look so big seen from the tower as it does later.

In any case that scene is possibly the very next day from the first look we get when roy scrys, certainly within a week. It had three and a half month of fast growth to reach what we see at first. It should not be much bigger in the O-chul-on-the-roof scene.

There is, however, a lot of time between this and the darth-V arch. If Redcloak was wrong in his projection and it has been growing in a slowed, but steady pace since, then it can make sense.

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Originally Posted by Onyavar

really? Because the rift information linked are:
Rift on top of castle ruin, and this is rather close in time with Redcloaks information of the rift not growing much anymore and the rift maybe slightly larger, still on top of castle ruin. Or was there really several months between 545 and 658, and Redcloak was utterly wrong? Or were there several months between 510 and 545?
In 658, the tendrils of the rift are much closer to Xykons tower than you would expect from previous comics.

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Assuming #545 took place right after Haley left Azure City, then there are indeed 6 months between #545 and #658.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.

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Except that I didn't change my mind on any of the things being pointed out here. They exist as I intended them to exist. You're just seeing a contradiction where there is none.

Conversely, you're defending your assertion that they are errors against people providing logical explanations:

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

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Sure, it would have been reasonable to think that, but Haley didn't think that. She thought the opposite, which is also reasonable. A character thinking one reasonable thing instead of another reasonable thing is not a plot hole or a contradiction or a mistake. It just is.

Why argue against plausible explanations, unless your goal is to assert that they really are errors?

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Originally Posted by Tass

So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?

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The rift he was measuring was the literal hole—the dark-magenta-and-white part—not the lighter "cracks" surrounding it, which have spread out much further. If the hole grew 100 feet in six months, then the cracks grew another few hundred beyond that, putting them close to the tower.

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Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff

Assuming #545 took place right after Haley left Azure City, then there are indeed 6 months between #545 and #658.

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Roy was dead for nine and a half month?

Haley and Celia needed six months to travel from AC to the oracle and to Greysky?

They stayed at Pete's for a bit more than a week. I reckon they travelled for a week between each of the places, so make this one month, two months top. The timeline guardians in those threads over there will know more.

And "six months" still doesn't explain the extreme growth of the rift between 544 and 658 - only if Redcloaks prediction in 545 was totally inaccurate. Artistic license, the necessity of fitting things into those panels, are things I would believe, and that's not much of a "plothole". However, "several months have passed" is not a valid argument to me.

Edit: Ninja'd by The Giant.

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Originally Posted by The Giant

The rift he was measuring was the literal hole—the dark-magenta-and-white part—not the lighter "cracks" surrounding it, which have spread out much further. If the hole grew 100 feet in six months, then the cracks grew another few hundred beyond that, putting them close to the tower.

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That's also reasonable. Still, "huh" because of the six months. :smallconfused:

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

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Her HP and saves would be the same regardless and Roy had a +5 sword he'd taken feats for the second time.

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Originally Posted by Onyavar

Roy was dead for nine and a half month?

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Closer to 10 months actually. Redcloak implied that 10 and half months had passed since the Battle of Azure City in #702.

And Haley & co. taking 6ish months to get to Greysky doesn't seem too implausible. The Sunken Valley is a few days away from Azure City, and according to the map at the back of WaXP, Hobgoblin City is around 3 times that distance--and Greysky City is even further up north. So it could be like a 3 month trip to Greysky, but at around 1 month is when Haley turned back to the Oracle (so let's say 2 weeks back). From the Oracle's tower to Greysky should have been something like 2 months and a half, but Belkar's curse severely slowed them down. (These are all just random numbers, but they add up and make sense to me.)

The biggest problem is that apparently Miko went to Dwarven Lands and back in like a week or two. But maybe she found wizards/sorcerers/clerics with the Travel domain willing to help. Maybe Shojo's personal Wizard Guy gave her a one-way teleport there.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Haley is Ian's only living relative.. However, he also has a sister Ivy.

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That just means that Miron only knew about Haley, not about any other relatives of Ian.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?

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There is no proof that Haley assumed that Nale died in the exploding castle before the Oracle told her that Miko did.

Once she was informed that Miko was imprisoned in the castle, and died when it exploded, it's a safe assumption for her that Nale, who was also imprisoned there, died also.

Okay, Folks, I thought this would be a fun little thread. Unfortunately, it seems to have upset The Giant.

I think we should stop talking now.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Okay, Folks, I thought this would be a fun little thread. Unfortunately, it seems to have upset The Giant.

I think we should stop talking now.

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He doesn't sound upset to me, he is just disagreeing with you. When you make posts saying "come on Giant just admit they are mistakes" or "oops we seem to have upset the Giant" it kinda sounds patronizing. If you disagree with him respond to his arguments without undercutting them in this fashion.

As an artist and author he is allowed to defend his work.

I'd debate the point with anyone else, but I'm not going to go against Word Of Creator.

There's a third option besides "argue with Rich about whether he's made mistakes" and "stop posting in the thread," y'know.

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Originally Posted by Kish

There's a third option besides "argue with Rich about whether he's made mistakes" and "stop posting in the thread," y'know.

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Yeah, I think if Rich had intended that no one discuss the possibility of a plot hole anymore, there is something within his power to ensure no one posts to this thread... :P

He left it open, he just disagrees with the specific holes you brought forward and, I'll agree continuing to argue about those does seem a bit odd... other plotholes do and are confirmed to exist, like Durkon's age being wrong in the OOTS cardgame...

So sure, discuss them away :)

You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

How do you know it is a plot hole? Maybe the son will play a role later in the story.

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Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

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Fyron's son isn't a plot hole at this stage. If the comic ends without it being explained THEN it's a plot hole. In the mean time, it's a mystery. Which may yet be resolved.

EDIT: ninja'd :smallfrown:

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Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff

Closer to 10 months actually. Redcloak implied that 10 and half months had passed since the Battle of Azure City in #702.

And Haley & co. taking 6ish months to get to Greysky doesn't seem too implausible. The Sunken Valley is a few days away from Azure City, and according to the map at the back of WaXP, Hobgoblin City is around 3 times that distance--and Greysky City is even further up north. So it could be like a 3 month trip to Greysky, but at around 1 month is when Haley turned back to the Oracle (so let's say 2 weeks back). From the Oracle's tower to Greysky should have been something like 2 months and a half, but Belkar's curse severely slowed them down. (These are all just random numbers, but they add up and make sense to me.)

The biggest problem is that apparently Miko went to Dwarven Lands and back in like a week or two. But maybe she found wizards/sorcerers/clerics with the Travel domain willing to help. Maybe Shojo's personal Wizard Guy gave her a one-way teleport there.

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Miko seems to have reached the area around the gate Elan blew up quite rapidly. However, since I don't have the book in question, and thus don't have the map, I can't say for certain.

Still, 6 months seems like a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong trip relative to others shown in the comic.

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Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

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I don't believe that is a plot hole. The fact that he is mentioned again after the publication of SoD means Rich hasn't forgotten about the existence of Fyron's son. So it means there is either misinformation in the story Roy received or the son was killed offscreen or something. I suspect we'll learn more as the comic progresses as I suspect Roy's relationship with his father still has some story material left to explore.

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Originally Posted by Ron Miel

Haley is Ian's only living relative.. However, he also has a sister Ivy.

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That comic doesn't show that Haley is his only living relative. It doesn't even show that Miron believes she is. At most, it shows that Miron claims she is his only living relative.

He's not going to give away his double agent, so what would you expect him to write? "... should you, as his only living relative (other than his sister Ivy, who won't pay the ransom, since she is currently betraying him to us by helping us recapture him each time he escapes)..."

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Or maybe Ian’s not paranoid - he really shouldn’t trust anybody but family, but she’s not really his sister. She could have died and been replaced by a Bone Golem. Maybe she’s a half-Celestial. Or perhaps she drew her last breath shortly after visiting the Oracle. Do we really know if Ivy’s male or female? Is doom coming to Greysky City when she returns? Maybe she’s the daughter of Eugene and Elan’s mother, half-sister to both Roy and Elan, making them step-brothers. Hooray!

Or maybe, just maybe, we should just read the comic to the end before we decide there’s a plothole.

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Originally Posted by FujinAkari

He left it open, he just disagrees with the specific holes you brought forward and, I'll agree continuing to argue about those does seem a bit odd... other plotholes do and are confirmed to exist, like Durkon's age being wrong in the OOTS cardgame...

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That’s not a plot hole. It’s not even a plot element. That’s just an author brainfart in non-canonical material. And even then, it’s not a plot element, because at no point is Durkon’s age relevant to the plot.

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Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

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How are Create Undead and Break Enchantment working differently from the source material plot holes? They'd only be plot holes if they functioned inconsistently within the strip. For example, Break Enchantment is 1 standard action in one strip but then 1 minute in another strip which ends up dooming someone.

Unless you wanted to watch Tsukiko cast Create Undead for an hour.

The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

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Originally Posted by Incom

The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

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No need for apologies.

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Originally Posted by Incom

The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

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Not to mention this.

From SoD (kind of):

Spoiler

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How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

That's not a plot hole either. It's an unresolved plot point. there's a (big) difference.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

From SoD (kind of):

Spoiler

Show

How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

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That isn't a plot hole. That's a clue. That should be in this thread. And especially this thread (which it is in already).

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Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

From SoD (kind of):

Spoiler

Show

How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

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This is not a plot hole. This is part of an ongoing mystery yet to be solved. This is a plot point.

Edit: massively ninja'd! :smalltongue:

The only nitpick I have ever had with the comic is as follows.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
66 Years ago Soon encounter the first rift.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html
Years later Shojo was a child at his fathers feet.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html
Shojo was an octogenarian.

Taking this at face this seems to be somewhat odd, assuming that Shojo was 80 then he would have been 14 when Soon encountered the first rift, assuming one year to find all the gates, research the spells and seal them (which is fine actually as adventurers accomplish all sorts of stuff in a year), and assuming that afterwards the years later refers to two years to establish the Sapphire Guard and appear before Shojo's father, that would put Shojo at 17, which seems to old for the story of a child at his fathers knee.

However I am happy to simply assume that Shojo was younger then he appeared to the order, perhaps in his sixties.

My assumptions have it play out like this.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html
If Shojo was 64 he would have sat on the throne since he was 17, Soon encountered the rift two years before Shojo was born, his adventures including founding the guard and getting old took ten years, making Shojo eight and learning from his father.

Soon aged a lot in those years (per the depiction in the comics) as he was under a lot of stress, and Shojo had similar reasons.

In my opinion everything else in the comic can be taken at face value, and this is to only element that caused me to have to concoct a rational for the timeframe.

As for Fyron's son?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html
Xykon killed five people named Fyron in cliffport, if is likely safe to assume that one of these was the son in question.

Shojo's age has already been given in War & XPs as 72.

So basically Shojo just looks older than he is? I don't think he actually told Belkar or Roy his exact age, so they estimated him to be about 80 something.