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Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
The Rune Mage
Most sorcerers are content with the powers of their bloodline and fickle connections to the universe, but some turn from their natural talents to study and labor for years in the wizard academy. Those who aren't accepted into these lofty institutions, or those that become bored with the rituals and study, instead make short cuts and magical foci to, for lack of a better term, "cheat" the magical system. These mages are known as rune mages, and among sorcerers they are remarkable for their flexability and arcane tenacity. Their use of spell grafts to write, channel and empower magic is their defining feature, and it makes them a force to be reckoned with.
| Level |
Ability name |
| 1 |
Read magic, runic knowledge |
| 6 |
Metamagic runes |
| 14 |
Rune exchange |
| 18 |
Reckless power |
Read magic: The rune mage may use an action to cast the read magic spell as a spell like ability. Casting the spell in this way does not require or expend a spell slot.
Runic Knowledge: The rune mage is a unique mixture between studied and natural magic talent, and as such he has more magical knowledge than the typical sorcerer. When he gains access to a new sorcerer spell level, he may select one spell from the wizard or cleric spell list (spells chosen are cast off of charisma) to write as a rune either on his body or an object in his posession. A grafted spell may not have a spell level higher than 5, and it cannot be of a spell level higher than the rune mage can currently cast. From this point on, the rune mage may cast this spell as if he had known and prepaired it. Effectively, this gives him an extra spell of levels 1-5 known and prepaired.
Spells gained from runic knowledge may be changed for new spells after a long rest. To change a spell, the rune mage must have either a scroll of a spell from the cleric, sorcerer or wizard spell list that they can read from or an already-grafted runic symbol of the spell that they are prepairing for the day. If they are prepairing from a scroll, they must spend 30 minutes per spell level to make a new runic graft of the spell, after which the scroll's magic is used up and it crumbles into ash. The rune mage cannot make runic grafts from a wizard's spell book, and a wizard may not learn new spells from a runic graft.
A runic graft must be made on a material other than paper, like, say, etchings in the wood of a staff or the metal of a weapon's blade or armor plate. The rune mage may place grafts on his own body that glow lightly when he has them prepaired, though he is limited in how many he may place on himself to 1/ 2 of his sorcerer levels. Similarly, a typical weapon may only have up to 1-3 runic grafts (more if they are magic) and a typical full suit of armor may have up to 4 (again, more if it is magic). Smaller items such as keepsakes, jewelry and music boxes/ cigar boxes typically can store 1 graft before the rune mage runs out of space to work with.
Runic grafts, unlike spell books, are universal, and any rune mage that comes into posession of one may prepare and cast with it as if they had made it themselves. The exception to this rule is for grafts made on the rune mage's own body, as those may only be used by the mage himself while he is alive, and fade away upon his death. If he is revived at a later date, the grafts will reappear and he will be able to prepair them again.
The rune mage may graft creatures other than himself, but unless the spells are cantrips or the other creature is also a rune mage of the appropriate level, the spell will not be usable. Sorcerer spells the rune mage knows may also be grafted onto objects from memory instead of from a scroll. To make grafts in this way, follow the same procceedure as making a spell scroll as outlined on page 129 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Finally, a rune mage may make a graft of level 6 or higher sorcerer spells on their body. However, these grafts must be of spells they already selected as part of their base sorcerer spells known, and once made the grafts may not be exchanged unless the sorcerer loses knowledge of the grafted spell (typical scenarios would include a sorcerer retraining the spell for knowledge of a new one, a particularly powerful creature removing knowledge of the spell from the sorcerer's head, or an unlucky encounter with the deck of many things). If the sorcerer loses knowledge of the spell associated with their level 6 or higher graft, then the current graft becomes unusable and fades away in one week, and the sorcerer may create a new graft of a spell they know of the same level to replace it. This is the only time a level 6 or higher graft may be exchanged.
Runic Metamagic: Learning how to channel their arcane energies through experimental grafts has allowed the rune mage to apply the potent forces of metamagic to their spells in a more refined manner. At level 6, the rune mage may select any one metamagic that costs 1 sorcery point or less except for twinned and adds it to his pool of known metamagics. Every spell they cast from a graft will have this chosen metamagic applied to it for free, whether it actually modifies the spell or not. The metamagic chosen may be changed after a long rest, but the cost of the metamagic may never be more than 1 sorcery point, and it may never be used on twinned.
Rune exchange: At level 14 the rune mage learns how to reorder the grafts they are powering, allowing them to change which grafts they have prepared... For a cost. As an action, the rune mage may spend 2 sorcery points to change one of their prepared runic grafts to another graft of the same level on their body or in their hands. Rune exchange may be used once per short rest.
Reckless power: The grafts that a rune mage creates are focuses of raw magical energies given shape and purpose by the carefully controlled will of the rune mage. They may further channel their innate arcane powers into it to increase the graft's power, though the cost to their magical stores is great. At level 18 when the rune mage casts a spell from one of their prepared spell grafts, they may choose to spend 4 sorcery points to activate reckless power. Upon activation, the current casting of the spell will have its effective slot level increased by 1 (to a maximum of 9), the spell may not be counter spelled, creatures with advantage on saving throws against magic do not roll for advantage against this spell and creatures immune to magic or spells of the level being cast must make a saving throw at advantage instead.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Aaaand Reckless power got a bit of a change, since I forgot that sorcerers can already recharge their spells with sorc points... so instead, you can make your spells stronger and basically "convert" lower level spells into higher level ones. Thoughts?
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Ok, first and foremost, I like the concept of rune based casting very much. Also, I think you got some very good ideas going on, with a lot of potential. I'm not fully familiar with 5e yet, since I've just finished my second session DMing it, so, for now, I'm just gonna add some random nitpicks and suggestions, if you don't mind:
-Firstly, this is a minor nitpick, but calling a Sorcerer's subclass a Mage is, well, weird. How about Rune Sage or something more general? Again, minor nitpick...
-Ok, first of all, I don't see any reason why you should change the spellcasting from Charisma to Inteligence. Neither crunch or fluff-wise really. Also, that somewhat deviates from the Sorcerer's role and identity. Id suggest that, if you want to make the Rune Mage more focused in study, to give him some way to benefit from Inteligence, but not substitue Charisma altogether. Perhaps you could tie the number of runes you can graft to Intelligence. This way you leave the spellcasting untouched while adding another layer to it...how about that?
-Runic Knowledge, IMO, is the best feature you got going on. to the point that the other abilities should relate or expand upon it. The idea that you can have spells from different lists (wich is very strong, btw) tattooed to your body is VERY cool and interesting. Perhaps you should focus on these spells, as if they were the character's chosen spells, and give him extra abilities when casting those. Firstly, the ability to have those spells readied at all times is very good, and again fits with the idea of having your favorite spells with ya. You could, also, give the character bonus when casting these spells. Perhaps, if he chose to expend the magic rune (essentialy having to carve it again on his body) he could boost the spell. Also, you could make it so spells cast from his Runes incurr bonuses to resist being interrupted or something like that. Perhaps focusing on the idea that the caster is more familiar with the spells he carbed on himself or that those spells become easier to cast, once carved.
-the last paragraph in Runic Knowledge is what I meant when I said this concept had potential. The ability to "give" other players casting (even if limited) is very interesting. I'd very much like if you could expand that feature, perhaps make it a stand-alone ability, not included in Runic Knowledge. Give the player a level based cap on the highest spell slot he can graft or perhaps a cap on the amount of grafts he can have active on other people and you can keep in check this power. The ability to give to your frontliner, for example, a spell is usefull cause it saves you an action (wich is always nice) and gives the other player more versatility. This however coulld be broken in may levels, so should be approached with caution.
-While I like the idea behind Reckless Power, fueling your spells with your life force, it seems rather unpractical and, save very specific situations, not very usefull. That may be just me, but I would rarely ever use an ability with such a potential to weaken me, even if that meant ending an encounter quickly, specially since you can't foresee if you'll even e able to recover from this ability in the near future. Perhaps if you played a bit with exaustion or other conditions (hell, even temporary ability damage) this ability could be better, but as it is, I'd rather keep my HP, thank you very much.
-Runic Metamagic should apply only to the spells grafted in the character's body really. I see no reason why they should apply to every single spells he casts, specially since that seems rather overpowered. Just my opinion, of course.
Well, bottom line is this idea is great, but the abilities you've given don't make great use of it. the ability to graft spells on yourself and your allies, while improving said spells trough this method, has a lot of potential...even to break the game, but it can be done with some thinking.
As my sig states, I can get a bit rambly. sorry about that, gotta type this quick since I'm at work. Hope you keep the good work!
-Dyhmas
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Actually, your feedback is great and I really do appreciate the detail.
For the name, I chose "mage" because a mage in D&D (past 0e, 1e and 2e) is just a general spellcaster who practices magic through a combination of research and natural talent. The wizard is the tryhard who spends all of his time looking at funny words and arguing with the mice in the basement, and the Sorcerer is the one that is doing what feels natural to him. Also, there is a core sorcerer subclass called the "wild mage", so there is precedent for it being a sorc thing.
For the spellcasting, yes, I do believe that you are right, and I'll change that immediately. Int will still be the maximum number of "researched" spells you may possess, and that will likely be a substantial curb to the rune mage's power, given most races/ classes will only focus on int or cha, and one or the other will not be too useful outside of spellcasting.
For Runic Knowledge, I must say thank you for the complement. I worked entirely too hard on that feature, and I never intended to actually go into such detail/ effort with it. Basing the rest of the subclass features off of it would be something that could work, though I am leery about the "expend a rune to make it stronger" idea, since that would skirt a bit closer to the 3.5 wizard's fire and forget territory, and I didn't particularly like that system... For Reckless Power, that could work, but I would like to have the rune suppressed for a time instead of forgotten entirely.
The ability to give people magic (mostly cantrips) is something that I thought of at the very end, because the munchkin in me was thinking, "Well, what if I use my allies/ the bodies of enemy rune mages as my psuedo-spellbook?" I decided that I didn't want to prevent the grafting entirely, but that I also didn't want to just out-right say no. So I decided that, if the allies put their own resources into being the runiest rune mage to ever rune they could get the spells with actual levels to them, or they could just stay their build and use the grafted cantrips instead. This makes the Runic Knowledge ability incredibly potent at early levels, as you can share whatever cantrips you choose (party full of firebolts and kiting, anyone?) and even at later levels, you can give other rune mages access to your spells (likely by giving them grafted items). I don't think there really needs to be much more as far as giving allies spellcasting, here.
I'm thinking of limiting Reckless Power to the runic grafts you have, and making it so you have to suppress the spell for 1d4 days instead of damaging health. Instead of increasing spell slot, the spell would become uncounerable and have a different secondary effect based on spell type (for example, make the damage dealing spell deal average damage minimum, making a spell with an attack roll automatically hit, making a concentration spell immune to the first dispell check, etc). Refined power would lower the time to 1 day to make it a bit more usable, and I'm toying with allowing your allies to use Reckless Power on the rune graft cantrips you placed on them. Sound a little bit better?
For runic metamagic, I thought I did limit it to the grafts? XD Well, time to go a editing...
Again, thank you for the feedback!
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
I've been trying to get an 'erudite sorcerer' theme going by creating a dragon sorcerer with the Sage background, but I must say, you've captured the part quite well. If I didn't already have a draconic backstory written up, and I knew for certain that my DM would homebrewed archetypes, I would be asking to steal this right now.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
asorel
I've been trying to get an 'erudite sorcerer' theme going by creating a dragon sorcerer with the Sage background, but I must say, you've captured the part quite well. If I didn't already have a draconic backstory written up, and I knew for certain that my DM would homebrewed archetypes, I would be asking to steal this right now.
Why thank you! I just went through to fix the things I thought I already fixed, but now it should read a little easier. Also, the only way to know if your DM will allow homebrew is to ask and show the homebrew that you want to use. I would love to hear about it if you get permission to play a rune mage, and would love to hear how it works out!
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
Why thank you! I just went through to fix the things I thought I already fixed, but now it should read a little easier. Also, the only way to know if your DM will allow homebrew is to ask and show the homebrew that you want to use. I would love to hear about it if you get permission to play a rune mage, and would love to hear how it works out!
I'm pretty sure my DM wouldn't object to allowing, at least not after a few good Charisma(persuasion) checks. I'm hesitant more because of the amount of time I have already invested in creating a Draconic Sorcerer, not the least of which was archetype-specific backstory. I'm not going to pretend that it's a particularly genius backstory, but I still feel the effort would be wasted if I switched now. If that Draconic Sorcerer dies, and I decide to make another Sorcerer, I'll be sure to go Rune Mage.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
asorel
I'm pretty sure my DM wouldn't object to allowing, at least not after a few good Charisma(persuasion) checks. I'm hesitant more because of the amount of time I have already invested in creating a Draconic Sorcerer, not the least of which was archetype-specific backstory. I'm not going to pretend that it's a particularly genius backstory, but I still feel the effort would be wasted if I switched now. If that Draconic Sorcerer dies, and I decide to make another Sorcerer, I'll be sure to go Rune Mage.
Fair enough, I suppose. Good luck, I'll only hope for your character's untimely death a little bit! :smalltongue:
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
This, alongside being a Mountain Dwarf and taking the Weapon Master feat, is awesome. :smile:
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Aside from the lack of how this fits with origins it mechanically works. Though somethings about simply don't make much sense.
1. Why is a more academic/utility type sorcery doing with abilities like reckless power? It seems thematically dissonant to me.
2. All sorcerer origins have abilities in which pay with sorcery points. You ought to make one.
3. Why should this be the caster that gets 2 uses of the 8-9 and more spells in general? The additional spells known is already a major boon.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
Aside from the lack of how this fits with origins it mechanically works. Though somethings about simply don't make much sense.
1. Why is a more academic/utility type sorcery doing with abilities like reckless power? It seems thematically dissonant to me.
Fluff wise, the rune mage is filling its runic grafts with magical power that remains relatively stable while bound to the rune. However, in times of crisis, the rune mage may "unleash the floodgates" if you will and temporarily break their rune/ drain their magical stores to make the next casting more powerful. It's basically a trump card or panic button, if you will, set ahead of time to give the "academic" sorc an edge in a future engagement.
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2. All sorcerer origins have abilities in which pay with sorcery points. You ought to make one.
That's what Metamagic Runes do. Instead of being something to spend sorc points on, though, they allow you to save them when casting certain spells (from your grafts), which in turn gives you a bit more leeway in how you can sprnd your sorc points. I don't see any need to give it another method of influencing its sorc points.
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3. Why should this be the caster that gets 2 uses of the 8-9 and more spells in general? The additional spells known is already a major boon.
The rune mage doesn't have 2 level 8/ 9 spells to cast per long rest, actually. It has 2 of each level known with one of them being prepared and thus interchangable, but that's about it. If you are thinking that reckless power gives you an extra slot of a higher level, well... Read the end again. It still expends a spell slot, and it has the hefty price of not being able to prepare grafts of the level you just cast for a week (unless you are level 18... Then it's only 3 days).
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
Fluff wise, the rune mage is filling its runic grafts with magical power that remains relatively stable while bound to the rune. However, in times of crisis, the rune mage may "unleash the floodgates" if you will and temporarily break their rune/ drain their magical stores to make the next casting more powerful. It's basically a trump card or panic button, if you will, set ahead of time to give the "academic" sorc an edge in a future engagement.
That's what Metamagic Runes do. Instead of being something to spend sorc points on, though, they allow you to save them when casting certain spells (from your grafts), which in turn gives you a bit more leeway in how you can sprnd your sorc points. I don't see any need to give it another method of influencing its sorc points.
The rune mage doesn't have 2 level 8/ 9 spells to cast per long rest, actually. It has 2 of each level known with one of them being prepared and thus interchangable, but that's about it. If you are thinking that reckless power gives you an extra slot of a higher level, well... Read the end again. It still expends a spell slot, and it has the hefty price of not being able to prepare grafts of the level you just cast for a week (unless you are level 18... Then it's only 3 days).
1. This doesn't sound like you have a theme but just that you wanted it. What does runes have anything to do with a panic button or surging? Again Reckless Power seems to be the odd one out without some specific lore. I don't have any problems with the power as I know it is once a week or 3 days, but if an ability like that is really used so sparingly it begs the question should you have it in the first place.
2. No, the idea of this is that is they have an alternative spell-like ability. This only further expands the amount of spells they have or modified. This also brings up an issue is that currently it is the best metamagic user as well as the most spells.
3. This is what it says, "When he gains access to a new sorcerer spell level, he may select one spell from the wizard or cleric spell list (spells chosen are cast off of charisma) to write as a rune either on his body or an object in his possession....Effectively, this gives him one extra spell known and prepared of each spell level." What is the point of both known and prepared in the last phrase if they don't get another slot each level?
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
1. This doesn't sound like you have a theme but just that you wanted it. What does runes have anything to do with a panic button or surging? Again Reckless Power seems to be the odd one out without some specific lore. I don't have any problems with the power as I know it is once a week or 3 days, but if an ability like that is really used so sparingly it begs the question should you have it in the first place.
Hmmmm... Maybe modifying it so that it's a very high cost sorc point ability instead of a week long cool down would be in order. The rune mage is fluffed to use runes as foci for magic and power as is, so it would fit there and fix the whole "has no subclass abilities to spend sorc points on" problem. Maybe 4 points, so that you could use it and still regain a level 1 spell slot at level 6...
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2. No, the idea of this is that is they have an alternative spell-like ability. This only further expands the amount of spells they have or modified. This also brings up an issue is that currently it is the best metamagic user as well as the most spells.
And I'm going to try out making Reckless Power into the rune mage's sorc point ability. As for the best metamagic user... The rune mage applies their free metamagic only to one of (up to 9) spells. At level 14 (when you get the ability), this is a total of 7 spells, that may be modified with one of the following metamagics for free:
Careful
Distant
Empowered
Extended
Subtle
None of these will break a spell beyond belief, and being able to apply any two of them to a spell for the price of one, while useful, is no more powerful than infinite flight (Draconic sorc) or rollong wild surges twice and choosing your result. (That said, wild mage can definitely use a power boost)
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3. This is what it says, "When he gains access to a new sorcerer spell level, he may select one spell from the wizard or cleric spell list (spells chosen are cast off of charisma) to write as a rune either on his body or an object in his possession....Effectively, this gives him one extra spell known and prepared of each spell level." What is the point of both known and prepared in the last phrase if they don't get another slot each level?
This is 5e, not 3.P or 2e. Spells known/ prepared are entirely separate from your spell slots (you prepare by class, not slot), and that line literally means what it says. Every time you would gain a new spell level, you learn a new spell (gain a spell known) and it is treated as prepared. So one more spell known and prepared of each spell level. It doesn't do anything with your slots beyond giving you more things to speld them on.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
Hmmmm... Maybe modifying it so that it's a very high cost sorc point ability instead of a week long cool down would be in order. The rune mage is fluffed to use runes as foci for magic and power as is, so it would fit there and fix the whole "has no subclass abilities to spend sorc points on" problem. Maybe 4 points, so that you could use it and still regain a level 1 spell slot at level 6...
And I'm going to try out making Reckless Power into the rune mage's sorc point ability. As for the best metamagic user... The rune mage applies their free metamagic only to one of (up to 9) spells. At level 14 (when you get the ability), this is a total of 7 spells, that may be modified with one of the following metamagics for free:
Careful
Distant
Empowered
Extended
Subtle
None of these will break a spell beyond belief, and being able to apply any two of them to a spell for the price of one, while useful, is no more powerful than infinite flight (Draconic sorc) or rollong wild surges twice and choosing your result. (That said, wild mage can definitely use a power boost)
This is 5e, not 3.P or 2e. Spells known/ prepared are entirely separate from your spell slots (you prepare by class, not slot), and that line literally means what it says. Every time you would gain a new spell level, you learn a new spell (gain a spell known) and it is treated as prepared. So one more spell known and prepared of each spell level. It doesn't do anything with your slots beyond giving you more things to speld them on.
1. Then that sounds more like spell specialization than eclectic selection and/or utility. Being a level 1 ability maybe instead make it easier to cast and in some instances more powerful. You might want to consider making a different reckless power for either the 14th or final. I think learning new spells right off the bat isn't the prime focus here.
2. My first answers some of this but here maybe you want to consider an at will read magic..writing ability and have on the side ritual spells you can learn.
3. The Sorcerer though isn't a prepared caster. Prepared casters in this prepare spells from their book, divine origin..etc for the day up to their class level+casting mod in which they spend their slots to cast what they want. A Sorcerer never does this as he just has spells known and the only thing that needs be prepared for the day here are spell slots. So the language here is either unnecessary or different than how you intended it to be.
P.S. much of the Sorcerer can be touched up.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
1. Then that sounds more like spell specialization than eclectic selection and/or utility. Being a level 1 ability maybe instead make it easier to cast and in some instances more powerful. You might want to consider making a different reckless power for either the 14th or final. I think learning new spells right off the bat isn't the prime focus here.
Er... The runic grafts are the whole point of the subclass. It's why I call it a rune mage in the first place. After getting access to new spells, the rune mage then goes on to specializing in what he can do with the spells that he learns, which is where reckless power and runic metamagic come in. If you read the fluff text what I am describing here fits almost to a T, and I really don't think I need to reorder/ remove the ability.
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2. My first answers some of this but here maybe you want to consider an at will read magic..writing ability and have on the side ritual spells you can learn.
Adding read magic as a level 1 feature might be fitting, I suppose, and runic grafts fit the writing magic already.
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3. The Sorcerer though isn't a prepared caster. Prepared casters in this prepare spells from their book, divine origin..etc for the day up to their class level+casting mod in which they spend their slots to cast what they want. A Sorcerer never does this as he just has spells known and the only thing that needs be prepared for the day here are spell slots. So the language here is either unnecessary or different than how you intended it to be.
I know that the sorc is not a prepared caster. However, I also noticed that they have hardly any spells known as well (2 level 1-6, and 1 level 7-9, That's a terrible ratio). And I thought I might as well try to give them a subclass that at least opens up the options a little bit. So the rune mage is a "prepared" caster, but only when it comes to grafts, which it may only have a certain amount of on hand if a DM uses any kind of logic (how many music boxes can a PC fit in their bag, after all?)
So I use the word "prepared" because... Well, grafts are prepared. At a rate of 1/ spell level (and no more). At level 1, this gives you 3 spells kown/ castable, and at level 20 you have 24, 9 of which can be reordered at a long rest. This is still 7 fewer spells readied than a Valor bard, and 11 fewer than a cleric or land druid (who are the reigning kings of prepared spells, and who can reorder their spells as they wish).
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P.S. much of the Sorcerer can be touched up.
Agreed, which is why the rune mage is an attempt to touch up on the horrible lack of spells the sorc has on hand.
Edit: Aaaand things have changed a little bit. Reckless power was moved to level 18, costs 5 sorcery points, and punches through magic immunity along side resistance. Metamagic runes is now a level 6 ability, and Rune Exchange has taken the level 14 slot.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
Er... The runic grafts are the whole point of the subclass. It's why I call it a rune mage in the first place. After getting access to new spells, the rune mage then goes on to specializing in what he can do with the spells that he learns, which is where reckless power and runic metamagic come in. If you read the fluff text what I am describing here fits almost to a T, and I really don't think I need to reorder/ remove the ability.
So I use the word "prepared" because... Well, grafts are prepared. At a rate of 1/ spell level (and no more). At level 1, this gives you 3 spells kown/ castable, and at level 20 you have 24, 9 of which can be reordered at a long rest. This is still 7 fewer spells readied than a Valor bard, and 11 fewer than a cleric or land druid (who are the reigning kings of prepared spells, and who can reorder their spells as they wish).
Agreed, which is why the rune mage is an attempt to touch up on the horrible lack of spells the sorc has on hand.
Edit: Aaaand things have changed a little bit. Reckless power was moved to level 18, costs 5 sorcery points, and punches through magic immunity along side resistance. Metamagic runes is now a level 6 ability, and Rune Exchange has taken the level 14 slot.
1. I am not saying get rid of the runes. What I am suggesting is that they from an academic stand point it would only make sense they would make runes or special focuses of the spells they know. Also as it stands other full casters can exploit this fully as per multiclass rules if they use the same slot tree they continue them.
2. While this may be true remember this effectively not only changes by the day but also by the hour 1 at a time.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
1. I am not saying get rid of the runes. What I am suggesting is that they from an academic stand point it would only make sense they would make runes or special focuses of the spells they know. Also as it stands other full casters can exploit this fully as per multiclass rules if they use the same slot tree they continue them.
They would be able to do so... And get access to level 1 grafts only. I did specify sorcerer spell levels in the first paragraph, after all, so a 1 level dip gets you level 1 sorcerer casting, which gives you level 1 grafts. It's not the most impressive of things to the wizard, cleric, druid or bard, and even the warlock isn't all that impacted by it. Grafts basically function like a spell book, you know, so a 19 cleric/ 1 rune mage sorc can't cast wish any more than a 19 cleric/ 1 wizard.
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2. While this may be true remember this effectively not only changes by the day but also by the hour 1 at a time.
At level 20, it allows you to shuffle one spell per short rest without damaging your sorc point pool as much. Before then, it costs an action and 4 points per spell graft changed, and that is a hefty price even in the end game. Even at level 20, you would only be using rune exchange if you were absolutely certain you needed that particular spell graft at that particular time. I dom't see it as too much of a problem, since while expensive, it is useful enough to justify its existance ("if only I had prepared X" comes up way to often in game, from my experience). Plus it fits the flexability fluff and I happen to like it. :smalltongue:
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
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Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
They would be able to do so... And get access to level 1 grafts only. I did specify sorcerer spell levels in the first paragraph, after all, so a 1 level dip gets you level 1 sorcerer casting, which gives you level 1 grafts. It's not the most impressive of things to the wizard, cleric, druid or bard, and even the warlock isn't all that impacted by it. Grafts basically function like a spell book, you know, so a 19 cleric/ 1 rune mage sorc can't cast wish any more than a 19 cleric/ 1 wizard.
At level 20, it allows you to shuffle one spell per short rest without damaging your sorc point pool as much. Before then, it costs an action and 4 points per spell graft changed, and that is a hefty price even in the end game. Even at level 20, you would only be using rune exchange if you were absolutely certain you needed that particular spell graft at that particular time. I dom't see it as too much of a problem, since while expensive, it is useful enough to justify its existance ("if only I had prepared X" comes up way to often in game, from my experience). Plus it fits the flexability fluff and I happen to like it. :smalltongue:
1. But there isn't any "sorcerer" slot tree as it is just a full caster tree. The multiclass rules make that clear. Well of course Warlocks don't as they aren't a full caster. The point a Bard with any MAD could use this.
2. That is roughly equivalent to a second-third level spell. Remember they can sacrifice spell slots for them as well. I am just pointing out that they have access to 2 large lists and it doesn't cost any resources.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
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Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
1. But there isn't any "sorcerer" slot tree as it is just a full caster tree. The multiclass rules make that clear. Well of course Warlocks don't as they aren't a full caster. The point a Bard with any MAD could use this.
Nnnnope. You calculate spells known and prepared by class, not by character or evel slot level, so you would need the proper sorcerer level to prepare rune mage grafts beyond 1st level. Additionally, the ability specifies that to use a graft, you must "Replace a graft you already have of the same level." So unless you have enouh levels in rune mage/ sorcerer to already have a graft of the right level, you cannot just use or make grafts of a higher level than you can cast.
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2. That is roughly equivalent to a second-third level spell. Remember they can sacrifice spell slots for them as well. I am just pointing out that they have access to 2 large lists and it doesn't cost any resources.
Actually, to use anything from those lists it requires quite a few large resource expendatures.
1. It takes 30 minutes/ spell level to graft a new spell, which is luxury down time within most dungeons, but hardly the biggest cost.
2. They need to find a scroll of the spell they want. Remember, there is no convinient magic mart they can just waltz to and buy whatever scrolls they want to in this edition, scrolls are rewards that are found in dungeons. Technically you could try buying some (a magic mart system is given in the DMG), but then you will not be able to buy level 7-9 scrolls as they are legendary rarity, and thus explicitly not sellable/ for sale, level 4-6 scrolls are sold for 7-50,000 gold, so good luck affording that, and level 1-3 are... Relatively cheep, actually. Level 1's are 50-250 (dm discretion) and level 3's are 1,000-2,500 (again, DM discretion). So you might have a few level 1-3 grafts to swap around, 2-3 level 4-6 grafts per level, and if you are lucky enough to find scrolls in the dungeon you might have 2 level 7-9 grafts in you possession by level 20*.
3. Additionally, if you are finding scrolls in a dungeon/ buying them in town, then you are actively competing with a party wizard for class resources. And your wizard will likely get first dibs, as they still have more spell prepared at the start of the day, and they can prepare multiple spells of the same slot level instead of just being limited to 1+1 unchangabe spell.
4. It does cost sorcery points, meaning that there is a literal "at the moment" cost to using rune exchange. If the sorcerer sacrifices a relatively useful spell slot (level 3 spells have quite a lot of variety, and can still pack quite a punch at level 15+), a prepared graft and their action for the round to get a new graft readied, then the sorc will be sacrificing versatility and the action economy for versatility. I don't quite see what the problem with that is?
*Grafts possessed are/ spell level.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
You should limit the extra spells known/prepared to level 5. Being able to prepare extra 6-9th level spells is too strong, since it's a deliberately scarce resource.
Maybe at higher levels you can record a 6-9th level spell as a rune (which costs a spell slot), and infuse it with a discounted metamagic ability.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
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Originally Posted by
Gnomes2169
Nnnnope. You calculate spells known and prepared by class, not by character or evel slot level, so you would need the proper sorcerer level to prepare rune mage grafts beyond 1st level. Additionally, the ability specifies that to use a graft, you must "Replace a graft you already have of the same level." So unless you have enouh levels in rune mage/ sorcerer to already have a graft of the right level, you cannot just use or make grafts of a higher level than you can cast.
Actually, to use anything from those lists it requires quite a few large resource expendatures.
1. It takes 30 minutes/ spell level to graft a new spell, which is luxury down time within most dungeons, but hardly the biggest cost.
2. They need to find a scroll of the spell they want. Remember, there is no convinient magic mart they can just waltz to and buy whatever scrolls they want to in this edition, scrolls are rewards that are found in dungeons. Technically you could try buying some (a magic mart system is given in the DMG), but then you will not be able to buy level 7-9 scrolls as they are legendary rarity, and thus explicitly not sellable/ for sale, level 4-6 scrolls are sold for 7-50,000 gold, so good luck affording that, and level 1-3 are... Relatively cheep, actually. Level 1's are 50-250 (dm discretion) and level 3's are 1,000-2,500 (again, DM discretion). So you might have a few level 1-3 grafts to swap around, 2-3 level 4-6 grafts per level, and if you are lucky enough to find scrolls in the dungeon you might have 2 level 7-9 grafts in you possession by level 20*.
4. It does cost sorcery points, meaning that there is a literal "at the moment" cost to using rune exchange. If the sorcerer sacrifices a relatively useful spell slot (level 3 spells have quite a lot of variety, and can still pack quite a punch at level 15+), a prepared graft and their action for the round to get a new graft readied, then the sorc will be sacrificing versatility and the action economy for versatility. I don't quite see what the problem with that is?
*Grafts possessed are/ spell level.
1. Not if you are multiclassing with another full caster, look at the multiclass rules. Yes you end up sharing spells known and you get access to them the ones known a little later of the primary but you can still cast the spell though and higher level ones as well. Look it would just simply be better if you said they are treated as sorcerer spells. Then there is no slot equals new spell shenanigans.
2. Okay, so what is this? Preparation time at the beginning of the day?
3. While the Wizard or Cleric may have them logged it doesn't mean they can cast them automatically like in 3.X. This comes into the area collaboration of saying you take this and I take this..etc. It really depends on the kind of people if it would be a problem but it isn't like they are just copying.
4. Look to me things like reckless power only makes sense when the rune is more like a personally invested focus not an effective scroll. This says more academic and knowledge based. While it does come later many of these abilities here and there could infringe upon other ones.
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Re: Rune mage, a sorcerer subclass
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Originally Posted by
Human Paragon 3
You should limit the extra spells known/prepared to level 5. Being able to prepare extra 6-9th level spells is too strong, since it's a deliberately scarce resource.
Maybe at higher levels you can record a 6-9th level spell as a rune (which costs a spell slot), and infuse it with a discounted metamagic ability.
To be honest, I've been considering this. It would get you to 20 spells readied at a time, and allow you to use the inflexible spells as your higher level ones.
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Originally Posted by
Amnoriath
1. Not if you are multiclassing with another full caster, look at the multiclass rules. Yes you end up sharing spells known and you get access to them the ones known a little later of the primary but you can still cast the spell though and higher level ones as well. Look it would just simply be better if you said they are treated as sorcerer spells. Then there is no slot equals new spell shenanigans.
To quote the multiclass caster rules:
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Originally Posted by Player hand book page 164
Spells known and prepared: You determine what spells you know and prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
So by the rules, the wizard 1/ cleric 19 has level 9 spell slots, can prepare level 9 cleric spells (as they have enough cleric levels to do so), and level 1 wizard spells (as they are only a level 1 wizard). They can cast their level 1 spells out of a level 9 slot, but they cannot prepare level 9 wizard spells like Wish or Meteor Swarm.
Similarly, since runic grafts specify that they run off of your sorcerer level, they are intrinsically tied to the spells known/ prepared from your sorcerer levels. Being a bard 19/ sorcerer 1 would not get you level 9 grafts, it would get you level 1 grafts. They do not progress based on your levels in a different casting class, and it would be a break in the rules for them to do so.
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2. Okay, so what is this? Preparation time at the beginning of the day?
Pretty much, as I said, it's not that much of a cost, though it is something to consider.
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3. While the Wizard or Cleric may have them logged it doesn't mean they can cast them automatically like in 3.X. This comes into the area collaboration of saying you take this and I take this..etc. It really depends on the kind of people if it would be a problem but it isn't like they are just copying.
Scrolls are rare in 5e. Incredibly so, to the point were you might get 1 from a dragon's hoard, or might find a single copy of a particular scroll above level 3 in the market. So it is actually rather competative as far as who gets access to the scroll, at least in the case of a sorcerer vs wizard. The cleric doesn't need to scribe scrolls into a spellbook, but you are also less likely to find cleric scrolls, as a typical DM won't be handing them out as much (clerics have access to their entire spell list, after all). Sure coordination is a thing, but brushing it aside as a cost in this edition because of it is not entirely fair.
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4. Look to me things like reckless power only makes sense when the rune is more like a personally invested focus not an effective scroll. This says more academic and knowledge based. While it does come later many of these abilities here and there could infringe upon other ones.
And that's fine, it's a matter of tase for you. However, I did design the class with a specific purpose in mind, and I have done my best to make the fluff and crunch fit that ideal in my estimation. I am sorry if it doesn't jive as a theme with you, but it does for me, and I don't think I'm going to remove/ swap powers any further. Though I will be limiting "swappable" grafts to levels 1-5, as Human Paragon 3 did bring up a good point as far as knowledge of high level spells go.
