All warlock or multiclass sorcerer?

Hi. I'm playing in a campaign as a tiefling warlock with the hexblade pact. I just reached level 5 and got my extra attack. The problem is that I feel like I'm wasting my first round casting a buff spell like mirror image, so I was thinking about multiclassing into sorcerer (shadow) so I can quicken my spells and still attack.

if I read the multiclass rules right it says that my warlock casting does not stack with any other type of casting. Will it make my character bad if I take sorcerer and then I'm behind by 5 levels of spells? How should I build this?

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Originally Posted by Morinfen

Hi. I'm playing in a campaign as a tiefling warlock with the hexblade pact. I just reached level 5 and got my extra attack. The problem is that I feel like I'm wasting my first round casting a buff spell like mirror image, so I was thinking about multiclassing into sorcerer (shadow) so I can quicken my spells and still attack.

if I read the multiclass rules right it says that my warlock casting does not stack with any other type of casting. Will it make my character bad if I take sorcerer and then I'm behind by 5 levels of spells? How should I build this?

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If nothing else, the extra spell slots will take care of a real weakness a pure warlock has. You'll get extra slots to cast spells like Shield and Hex and more slots to use for casting Mirror Image and such.

A Sorlock is almost always more powerful than a straight Warlock (once you get 3 levels of Sorc), so you wouldn't be set back by multiclassing.

Sorlock (Sorcerer / Warlock) is an extremely common multiclass combo.
It has great synergy, and it has a unique combo that nobody else gets.

Sorcerers can convert between sorcerer points and spell slots.
Warlocks get their pact slots back on a short rest.

So, once you are level 3 sorcerer, you can:
- convert your two warlock pact slots into sorcerer points
- convert those sorcerer points into spell slots
- short rest to get your warlock pact slots back
- repeat

But wait! Order now, and we'll throw in this super-special bonus offer!
The real kicker for this, is that you can bank a bunch of spell slots ... above your normal daily limit.

In other words, you take a long rest, and you (as a 3rd level sorcerer), start the day with 4 first level slots, and 2 second level slots, and 3 sorcerer points.
You are also a 5th level warlock, and get two pact slots at 3rd level each.

So, convert your 3 sorcerer points into a 2nd level slot.
You now have 4 first level slots, and 3 second level slots.

Next, you can convert one pact slot (3rd level) into 3 sorcerer points, and then to another 2nd level slot.
Repeat for your other pact slot.
You now have 4 first level slots, and 5 second level slots.

Short rest to get your pact slots back.
Repeat as needed.

Spend the morning doing this, and you can bank a pretty big bucket of spell slots to go adventuring with.
Neat-o.
Of course, it all resets when you take a long rest.

There is an alternate build called the 'coffeelock', where you never take a long rest, and build an effectively unlimited number of spell slots.
But not everyone considers it a legal build.

Anyhow, yes, it's a very viable build.
Usually, the build has more levels in sorcerer than warlock.
e.g. Sorcerer X / Warlock 2, but you can do different splits, depending on what you want.

Has anyone tried going Warlock X / Sorc 3 ? e.g. most of the levels in Warlock, and just a small dip into sorcerer?
I know it doesn't give you as much stamina for quickened-EB spam, but if what you want is just to bank a bunch of extra slots for 1st/2nd level spells, seems like it would be fine.

I don't see how levels of sorcerer are going to solve your problem.

In 5e, spells only scale up in level if you use height level slots. You are 5th, typically you need use a 3rd (or at least 2nd) level spell slot to stay competitive -- say blink, fly, or mirror image. At 7th-level, you may easily be facing frost giants and you'll need something like greater invisibility or polymorph to stand up against such a creatures.

If you take sorcerer classes, you'll need at least three levels in order to gain meta-magic feats and quicken. So at 7th and 8th, you won't have greater invisibility or polymorph and even at 8th... a quickened mirror image is a poor substitute as it likely won't last more than a round against most CR 7 or 8 opponents.

Sorcerer will give you most spells, more low-level slots, and more low-level abilities. You'll be extremely versatile at casting low-level spells. However, you then become worse at high-level spells. You'll likely be giving up (or seriously delaying) high-level abilities which ultimately will make the difference in most fights.

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Originally Posted by MrBig

Has anyone tried going Warlock X / Sorc 3 ? e.g. most of the levels in Warlock, and just a small dip into sorcerer?
I know it doesn't give you as much stamina for quickened-EB spam, but if what you want is just to bank a bunch of extra slots for 1st/2nd level spells, seems like it would be fine.

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Remember that you only get as many sorcery points as the level of sorcerer you are, so a lv. 3 sorcerer dip will only ever allow you to have a maximum of 3 sp at a time. The only way to increase your max possible sp is to go up more levels in sorc.

High level abilities do not make the difference in most fights, given a creative player.

I would add for the OP that while sorlock is a very strong multiclass, I'd probably avoid shadow sorcerer in favor of another subclass. One of its main abilities is completely redundant with warlock, just flat out weaker than devil's sight.

I can ensure you on one thing; Sorlocks are not weak! They are on the strong side of the optimised builds, and I'd argue the Strongest for Sustainable Damage, but I'd have a bunch of people at my neck arguing otherwise, so I'll keep it "strong side" :P Both Quickening Eldritch Blast or just using Extra spell slots for more versalite spellcasting wile you Melee as a Hexblade (or why not Both, as I do usually with my Sorlocks), can allow for great combos with your Invocations.

Now, the real question is, what will you enjoy the most? Both have nice RP and Great Mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Morinfen

Hi. I'm playing in a campaign as a tiefling warlock with the hexblade pact. I just reached level 5 and got my extra attack.

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If you took bladelock, you have no choice but to reach bladelock 12 for lifedrinker. Or at least bladelock 9 (?) for the +2 pact weapon. That's where most of its value comes from.

Sorcerer offers you low-level slot for utility spells, delaying your bladelock progression by 1 level might be worth it.

After bladelock 12, going sorcerer is the good progression. Mystic arcanum are... not as nice as other high-level slots. Warlock 11 / sorcerer 9 is a typical split for other pacts.

Oh wow. Thanks for all the replies. It is cool how you can convert extra warlock spells into sorcerer points. My invocations right now are improved pact weapon, extra attack, and misty visions. That's why I thought shadow was a good sorcerer class. But I was also thinking about divine sorcerer so I could cast spiritual weapon.

3 level dip in sorcerer is a trivial cost in terms of your high level warlock features. I've always said I would never go past 17 in warlock because it's crap. May as well dip something at that point. Obviously there is a cost if you take it early as it delays your warlock advancement.

5 level dip is a sweet spot since you will cap out at 5th level warlock slots and one slot replenishes all your points. That's 10 sorcery points you can use each short rest to cook up lower level slots with (up to 3rd). How useful that is depends on how stingy your DM(s) are with short rests. Of course you give up your once per day 9th level spell and an invocation. But you get two 3rd level slots and 3rd level sorcerer spells.

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Originally Posted by Morinfen

Oh wow. Thanks for all the replies. It is cool how you can convert extra warlock spells into sorcerer points. My invocations right now are improved pact weapon, extra attack, and misty visions. That's why I thought shadow was a good sorcerer class. But I was also thinking about divine sorcerer so I could cast spiritual weapon.

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Getting my first ever use of Spiritual Weapon tonight. Should be fun to use. :)

I wouldn't cut into warlock too much at this point. If you're going to get to mid/high level there's a lot to like about the base warlock and hexblade.
The Specter is pretty useful, Armor of Hexes will serve you really well against boss-type monsters and Master of Hexes is a huge boost.
The 3rd slot at level 11 is also a big boost. Nothing can really crank out the mid-level spells like a warlock can and it's really powerful. Everybody is so focused on "only two spells" since all the white-room people never do anything but dip.

But...there is a lot of cool stuff you might want to do a 1-5 level run in Bard or Sorc though.
Before level 3 it's a few low level slots for Shield and Absorb Elements (if Sorc) or something else utility.
Quickened buffs at level 3 Sorc are pretty good for a melee bladelock. With only 3 points you're only going to get to do it once a combat but that could be very useful. You've got slot flexibility to replenish those points too. Dropping a bonus-action level 5 Armor of Agathys could be pretty awesome.
Bard at level 3 also has some neat archetype based things to do with your inspiration along with some neato other stuff. Blades gives a fighting style and Flourishes, Glamour has bonus action THP and emergency movement for the whole party, lore has cutting words.

Maybe 1 level of something for the two utility low-level slots now and then after Warlock 12 take a few more.

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Originally Posted by bid

Or at least bladelock 9 (?) for the +2 pact weapon. That's where most of its value comes from

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This does not exist outside of the UA article. It's clearly intended to be left out given what ended up in Xanathar's

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Originally Posted by PeteNutButter

I would add for the OP that while sorlock is a very strong multiclass, I'd probably avoid shadow sorcerer in favor of another subclass. One of its main abilities is completely redundant with warlock, just flat out weaker than devil's sight.

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Or just don't take Devil's Sight. Now you get to pick something else. Not as good but it's free and it's still a very solid sorc archetype.

That said, some of it's best stuph is at lvl 6 and beyond. The hound is amazing. And I imagine warlocks won't want to dip past 5 levels.

I'm playing in out of the abyss so I'm not sure if I will be fighting a lot of humanoids to make my specter. My DM said it's going to level 15, so I thought warlock 5 sorcerer 10. How important is lifedrinker?

I also think I'm going to take great weapon master. quickening true strike will help me add a lot of damage.

It's pretty important if you intend to primarily attack people in melee.
Do you want to be a sword-swinger or a spell-slinger?

Warlock 5 Sorc 10 is maybe a decent eldritch-smite build. edit: nevermind forgot the warlock slot restriction do not do this to smite. But you're giving up several melee-centric abilities and a hit to your HP.

Quickened True-strike is still junk, it works on one attack on your next turn. Better off with a quickened booming or green-flame blade even with GWM. Two chances to do damage is better than one advantaged chance typically.
Darkness/Devil's Sight or Shadow of Moil are way better ways to generate advantage.

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Originally Posted by Morinfen

I'm playing in out of the abyss so I'm not sure if I will be fighting a lot of humanoids to make my specter. My DM said it's going to level 15, so I thought warlock 5 sorcerer 10. How important is lifedrinker?

I also think I'm going to take great weapon master. quickening true strike will help me add a lot of damage.

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You can't use Cha with GWM, all heavy are 2-handers. Was that changed in Xan?

Lifedrinker and GWM run in opposite ways. If you use GWM, lifedrinker becomes weaker, twice since you don't boost to Cha20. With GWM and lifedrinker, you remove 5 chances of doing weapon+10 to do weapon+20.

And you'd take GWM at lock 5 / sorcerer 4. Compare to lock 9 with GWM and +2 weapon. Quick maths, assuming Cha18 GWM:
- lock 5 GWM, +1 weapon = 2d6+15 * .45 ~ 9.9 per attack
- lock 12 GWM, +2 weapon = 2d6+22 * .50 ~ 14.5 per attack
After turn 3, you'll have done 59.4 with sorcerer vs 58 with lifedrinker.

You don't lose much combat-wise, and sorcerer will help you out of combat.

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Originally Posted by bid

You can't use Cha with GWM, all heavy are 2-handers. Was that changed in Xan?

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Yes. Hexblades can always use cha with their created pact weapon. You wouldn't be able to do it with a weapon you found and then turned into your pact weapon.

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Originally Posted by Dalebert

Yes. Hexblades can always use cha with their created pact weapon.

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Erm, this has nothing to do with the UA text: "In addition, when attacking with a melee weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two- handed property, you can use your Charisma modifier"

You are saying that was changed in Xan, and your two-handed pact weapon can use Cha.

EDIT: it's for bladelock only, so yeah.

I think what I'm most worried about is at level 11 when I would have 3x 5th level warlock slots and 1 6th level a sorcerer multiclass would still be stuck at 3rd level. How does extra low level slots compare? I want to be able to cast shield and absorb elements without wasting high level slots, but I am unsure what I am losing by missing 4th and 5th level spells. As an old 3.5 player I respect the power of high level spells, but the way 5e scales seems to lessen that.

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Originally Posted by bid

Erm, this has nothing to do with the UA text: "In addition, when attacking with a melee weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two- handed property, you can use your Charisma modifier"

You are saying that was changed in Xan, and your two-handed pact weapon can use Cha.

EDIT: it's for bladelock only, so yeah.

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Bladelocks are the warlock subclass that will want to pick up GWM.

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Originally Posted by Morinfen

I think what I'm most worried about is at level 11 when I would have 3x 5th level warlock slots and 1 6th level a sorcerer multiclass would still be stuck at 3rd level. How does extra low level slots compare? I want to be able to cast shield and absorb elements without wasting high level slots, but I am unsure what I am losing by missing 4th and 5th level spells. As an old 3.5 player I respect the power of high level spells, but the way 5e scales seems to lessen that.

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It's not that bad. You're a Gish, not a caster. A pure-classed Paladin also only has 3rd level spells at that point. If you have another full caster, they can shore up the lack of high level abilities.

Just so you are aware, a Shadow Sorcerer is a terrific thematic and mechanical addition to the warlock/sorcerer stable. At level 3, the Shadow Sorcerer gets the Darkness spell for free. In other words, it does not count against your Spells Known list. In addition, when cast using Sorcery Points (2), you not only have darkness but you can see in it. What this combo does is free up a spell slot and an eldritch invocation. Two Sorcery points is what a first level spell slot cost and a third level Sorcerer has 4 first level slots along with 3 Sorcery Points to start out with. It means Darkness may come on a bit later but , imo, the savings are well worth it.

Thematically, both Hexblades and Shadow Sorcerers have an intimate connection with the Shadowfell, which allows lots of room for RP and removes many of the convoluted backstories of how these 2 disparate classes can meld in one individual.