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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
We know what happens to certain creatures at when their power stat hits 0. Mummies return to duat, prometheans stay dead (functionally, anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding how their resurrections work). Changelings are able to voluntarily reduce their Wyrd, but it doesn't specify if it can hit 0 this way, or what would happen if a changeling did that. Vampire blood potency decreases while in torpor, but explicitly never hits 0. Werewolves and sin-eaters cannot (as far as I recall) reduce their power stats, barring the same erosion that hits everyone at Power Stat 6+.
All that said, we do have some precedent for Power Stat 0 supernaturals. Many of the things in Night Horrors: the Wicked Dead have BP 0. They are terrified of proper vampires, have very limited vitae reserves, can only spend 1 vitae/round, and I think there were some other rules about them that I can't remember right now. But that's a starting point, if you wanted to run a story where the characters are in danger of having their power stats reduced to 0 and need rules for it.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Oh, neat. The compilation of all that passed me by.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
The creatures in Wicked Dead are more like BP 1/2 as far as rules go, though, rather than actual BP0 - things that are vampire-like, but not actual vampires, and WoD can't roll fractions of dice. It's better than nothing, but still rather awkward.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Still, it provides a starting point if you need to make rules for what happens if a character's power stat is dropped to that level somehow.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
All that said, we do have some precedent for Power Stat 0 supernaturals. Many of the things in Night Horrors: the Wicked Dead have BP 0. They are terrified of proper vampires, have very limited vitae reserves, can only spend 1 vitae/round, and I think there were some other rules about them that I can't remember right now. But that's a starting point, if you wanted to run a story where the characters are in danger of having their power stats reduced to 0 and need rules for it.
Ah, cool. I'd always assumed they'd either die or become a regular human with a few odd quirks.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
Changelings are able to voluntarily reduce their Wyrd, but it doesn't specify if it can hit 0 this way, or what would happen if a changeling did that.
IIRC, a changeling can in fact buy their Wyrd down to 0, and if they simultaneously get their Clarity up to 10 they become mortals.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Does it have to be truly simultaneous, or just the the two states must at some point overlap?
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sith_Happens
IIRC, a changeling can in fact buy their Wyrd down to 0, and if they simultaneously get their Clarity up to 10 they become mortals.
What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.
My question is, why would any changeling want to do that? Dropping Wyrd I get; it generates some pretty severe drawbacks as it increases. But becoming mortal again? When the True Fae are still out there? When your motley and court need you? When there is still so much to experience, both in the mortal world, in dreams, and in the Hedge?
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
My question is, why would any changeling want to do that? Dropping Wyrd I get; it generates some pretty severe drawbacks as it increases. But becoming mortal again? When the True Fae are still out there? When your motley and court need you? When there is still so much to experience, both in the mortal world, in dreams, and in the Hedge?
Well, some Changelings are concerned that they might be soulless or soul-compromised, right? Might seem like a decent way to get out.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
I don't know, I'd be to concerned about the True Fae coming back for me or my loved ones to give up my Wyrd. With the Wyrd, I at least have a chance of doing something to protect myself or them. Without it...
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
I don't know, I'd be to concerned about the True Fae coming back for me or my loved ones to give up my Wyrd. With the Wyrd, I at least have a chance of doing something to protect myself or them. Without it...
You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DMofDarkness
You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
Guilty. Autumn Court through and through. No way I could live with the knowledge that magic exists, that I once had magic, and gave it up, no way I could give it up.
I wonder what the other seasons would think about giving up their Wyrd? Summer would probably be opposed, on grounds of needing to be able to defend oneself from the True Fae should the need arise, and the Wyrd can help with that, Autumn would be opposed due to the fact that it's part of the court's charter to study and understand Fae magic; you don't become a member of the Autumn Court without a healthy dose of curiosity about this stuff. I'm not sure about Spring, though. They're all about desire and living life to the fullest, and magic can both help and hinder that, so... I don't know.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Spring would depend a lot on personal preference, I think. Can your desires be better met as a Changeling? Then stay, and fill them all! On the other hand, if you have to be a mortal to fulfill them, then farewell, and may you receive all you desire (so long as that doesn't interfere with what I desire)!
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DMofDarkness
You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
Oh, no. No. Assimilating your fetch leaves you a changeling, doesn't it? I mean having your fetch assimilate you. The gestalt entity is now complete, and has memories ranging from birth, to current, all mundane. Maybe some changeling memories as hazy dreams. It neatly avoids the "I used to have power" angst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
Guilty. Autumn Court through and through. No way I could live with the knowledge that magic exists, that I once had magic, and gave it up, no way I could give it up.
I wonder what the other seasons would think about giving up their Wyrd? Summer would probably be opposed, on grounds of needing to be able to defend oneself from the True Fae should the need arise, and the Wyrd can help with that, Autumn would be opposed due to the fact that it's part of the court's charter to study and understand Fae magic; you don't become a member of the Autumn Court without a healthy dose of curiosity about this stuff. I'm not sure about Spring, though. They're all about desire and living life to the fullest, and magic can both help and hinder that, so... I don't know.
you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?
Boohoo, my grubby dirty mundane childhood was replaced by a terrible, wonderful mind wrenching experience which only serves to prove how bad-ass I am and left me with magic powers, the ability to literally taste beauty and magic powers like dream walking or contractual promises. Oh woah is m—Pffffffffhaaaaaa hahahahahahahaha! I almost said that with a straight face~! Hey, you want some tea? It's made with the essence of Birtish patriotism amongst Indian regulars. It's a kick, especially if you're summer court.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Oh, no. No. Assimilating your fetch leaves you a changeling, doesn't it? I mean having your fetch assimilate you. The gestalt entity is now complete, and has memories ranging from birth, to current, all mundane. Maybe some changeling memories as hazy dreams. It neatly avoids the "I used to have power" angst.
Call me crazy, but I have a feeling most changelings would actively try to avoid this fate. Absorbing their fetches themselves, on the other hand, would probably be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?
Boohoo, my grubby dirty mundane childhood was replaced by a terrible, wonderful mind wrenching experience which only serves to prove how bad-ass I am and left me with magic powers, the ability to literally taste beauty and magic powers like dream walking or contractual promises. Oh woah is m—Pffffffffhaaaaaa hahahahahahahaha! I almost said that with a straight face~! Hey, you want some tea? It's made with the essence of Birtish patriotism amongst Indian regulars. It's a kick, especially if you're summer court.
All of this. All of this is why I would never willingly surrender my Wyrd.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
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All of this. All of this is why I would never willingly surrender my Wyrd.
For a PC changeling, this kind of attitude is basically fine. But it lacks a lot of reality on a setting wide scale.
Arcadian trauma is not about going "Boohoo, something bad happened to me". PTSD is not weakness or whining. Horrific abuse in your past does not normally make you a fabulous and strong person, it normally messes you up. Really seriously.
So yeah, I can get behind the PC's being the fabulously lucky ones who managed to avoid getting screwed up by what they went through, and drawing it into a learning experience. It makes for a less depressing game. But the majority of Changelings are the equivalent of victims of torture, and domestic abuse. And wanting to step away from the world that led you into that is not a stupid choice.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?
I have been through some abusive experiences that were extremely traumatic to me. I still suffer from depression and a whole host of other issues. I, and many other people who have suffered mental trauma, have been told that I should "just get over it". That I should just go out into the sun and enjoy my life.
I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.
Please think about what you say.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
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Originally Posted by
C'nor
Does it have to be truly simultaneous, or just the the two states must at some point overlap?
The latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.
No idea. I don't actually own any Changeling books, I think the rule in question came up in a web search.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.
Please think about what you say.
Pretty sure SiuiS was making a hypothetical Spring Court quote there.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToySoldierCPlus
Call me crazy, but I have a feeling most changelings would actively try to avoid this fate. Absorbing their fetches themselves, on the other hand, would probably be fine.
That's the kicker. From an objective view it's probably the best possible choice, but subjectively it's the worst. WoD games all have this passive 'if looke at right, you're the bad guy' thing going for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Selrahc
For a PC changeling, this kind of attitude is basically fine. But it lacks a lot of reality on a setting wide scale.
Oh don't mind her, she'll raise her clarity and then the actual horror will reassert itself. Denial by inundating the senses is a coping mechanism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
I have been through some abusive experiences that were extremely traumatic to me. I still suffer from depression and a whole host of other issues. I, and many other people who have suffered mental trauma, have been told that I should "just get over it". That I should just go out into the sun and enjoy my life.
I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.
Please think about what you say.
so have I, luv. While I am sorry it upset you, I'm not going to take it back; it's a specific character's opinion and was a valid answer to the question posed. It is not on my part ignorant, nor intentionally insulting. I can only apologize for the hurtful part, and for that I am sorry.
I am curious though, what makes you ascribe this to me, specifically as an attitude towards abuse? There is a world of difference between 'how would a spring court changeling respond to giving up being Lost' and 'what do you feel about abuse in general'.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
The thing about becoming a mortal again as a changeling is that it separates you from the Fae who abused you... to a point. Yes, you're normal again and can go back to living like a mortal. But you know that the Fae are out there and you still remember what they did to you. I can imagine a Changeling who decides that you can't really go home again. But I can also imagine a Changeling who would take this option, hoping that you can.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Fertility.
Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Musashi
You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Fertility.
Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
You know, I hadn't thought about that one. It holds more sway with the Spring Court than with any other season, but I can see members of any court hitting that roadblock and struggling with it.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Musashi
You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Fertility.
Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
so have I, luv. While I am sorry it upset you, I'm not going to take it back; it's a specific character's opinion and was a valid answer to the question posed. It is not on my part ignorant, nor intentionally insulting. I can only apologize for the hurtful part, and for that I am sorry.
I am curious though, what makes you ascribe this to me, specifically as an attitude towards abuse? There is a world of difference between 'how would a spring court changeling respond to giving up being Lost' and 'what do you feel about abuse in general'.
Sorry. I did misread your post. It also touched a bit of a nerve with me and I was more than a little emotional yesterday afternoon. :smallredface:
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!
Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MugaSofer
Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?
OH NO, IT'S GIVEN BIRTH A PRIUS. CURSE YOU, ARCHFEY!
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
Sorry. I did misread your post. It also touched a bit of a nerve with me and I was more than a little emotional yesterday afternoon. :smallredface:
That's fine. I understand how that cna be. :smallsmile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MugaSofer
Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?
The possibilities know no bounds! Go, my young padawan! Eat this magical fruit I told you about without evidence and go forth and be fruitful!
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Originally Posted by
WitchSlayer
OH NO, IT'S GIVEN BIRTH A PRIUS. CURSE YOU, ARCHFEY!
One of the more fun mage discussions was trying to wrap my head around how disbelief worked, because it seemed to imply that a covert spell would still unravel. One of the STs examples of how to get a covert spella cross was hiding in plain sight;
"No one needs to know you're parking you rhybrid on the grass because the dozens of tiny mouths on the underside are grazing for fuel."
Kinda fridge horror there.
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!
Ah, yes, forgot that one. Like you say, it has more potential to turn disastrous than mundane mundane sex.
Does it say if the child is going to be at least part fae? Because if they are, that's another argument in favour of becoming human again. If your child is a Changeling, they will attract more attention, have access to dangerous powers, and be essentially partially crazy from birth. It could be very hard to cope with your child seeing things that aren't there just like you do, wandering into the Hedge and potentially never coming back, etc.
A Changeling child that has never been kidnapped by True Fae is essentially a child with subtle powers and the likeliness to become insane sooner or later. In another universe, they might turn out okay, but this is the World of Darkness. THAT universe is not going to be lax with your child just because they have the potential to be a superhero.
(Oh, and bonus: if you can't be sure you still have a soul, you can't be sure your child will have one, too. It can be terrifying to contemplate the prospect of intentionally bringing into this world an innocent being without a soul. Ask Prometheans.)
So yeah. Generally, when you're a Changeling, having a human child is better. So, you might as well become human too, in the process.
... I'm wasting too much time thinking about the fertility and offspring of Changelings. :smallconfused:
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Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Musashi
Ah, yes, forgot that one. Like you say, it has more potential to turn disastrous than mundane mundane sex.
Does it say if the child is going to be at least part fae? Because if they are, that's another argument in favour of becoming human again. If your child is a Changeling, they will attract more attention, have access to dangerous powers, and be essentially partially crazy from birth. It could be very hard to cope with your child seeing things that aren't there just like you do, wandering into the Hedge and potentially never coming back, etc.
A Changeling child that has never been kidnapped by True Fae is essentially a child with subtle powers and the likeliness to become insane sooner or later. In another universe, they might turn out okay, but this is the World of Darkness. THAT universe is not going to be lax with your child just because they have the potential to be a superhero.
(Oh, and bonus: if you can't be sure you still have a soul, you can't be sure your child will have one, too. It can be terrifying to contemplate the prospect of intentionally bringing into this world an innocent being without a soul. Ask Prometheans.)
So yeah. Generally, when you're a Changeling, having a human child is better. So, you might as well become human too, in the process.
... I'm wasting too much time thinking about the fertility and offspring of Changelings. :smallconfused:
You're spending more time on it than the rulebooks. The rulebooks just say that the child is automatically human from the Changeling's side; the only odd stuff happens when a Fetch is one of the parents.