Ranger's Distracting Attack, "ally", and melee sneak attacks.

I stumbled over the ACF for rangers, Distracting Attack, from PHBII, and the way I'm reading it, the way I understand it, you're always your own ally (unless it says otherwise), so if you have sneak attacks, won't it turn every single one of your attacks into sneak attacks?

I must be missing something.

For reference the text:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PHB2 p.55

Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an
enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged),
that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose
of adjudicating your allies’ attacks.

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It's not just considered flanked, it's considered flanked by YOU. Outside of very specific text to the contrary, I would say that you can't flank for yourself.

Also, if you care about intent at all, it reads to me like they never intended it to apply to your own attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rebel7284

For reference the text:


It's not just considered flanked, it's considered flanked by YOU. Outside of very specific text to the contrary, I would say that you can't flank for yourself.

Also, if you care about intent at all, it reads to me like they never intended it to apply to your own attacks.

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While that is probably true, consider that when a rogue and a fighter flank an enemy together, the enemy is flanked by the rogue, and allows for SA. I'm not saying the ACF is supposed to work like that, but I can certainly see a reading that would allow it... (especially if you keep in mind several maneuvers from ToB that count yourself as an ally...)

Edit tl/dr:
RAI: probably not; RAW: it could maybe work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Luckmann

I stumbled over the ACF for rangers, Distracting Attack, from PHBII, and the way I'm reading it, the way I understand it, you're always your own ally (unless it says otherwise), so if you have sneak attacks, won't it turn every single one of your attacks into sneak attacks?

I must be missing something.

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Sounds legit to me, because you're right, you're usually your own ally.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...nd_ally&alpha=

It also doesn't seem broken to me, since there are so many restrictions on sneak attack already. Still, here's a take on the ally situation:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...74560-Ally-you

And here's a discussion on Distracting Attack itself:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ranged-attacks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rebel7284

For reference the text:


It's not just considered flanked, it's considered flanked by YOU. Outside of very specific text to the contrary, I would say that you can't flank for yourself.

Also, if you care about intent at all, it reads to me like they never intended it to apply to your own attacks.

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I am not seeing your argument here, they text literally says 'that enemy is considered flanked by you' and if you read sneak attack it says: 'The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.'

You are flanking the target, therefor, you do sneak attack damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bronk

Sounds legit to me, because you're right, you're usually your own ally.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...nd_ally&alpha=

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Bronk’s reference is the most official general statement that I know of, which means technically you’re still in DM adjudication land, since the line is

“Ally” = “A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.”

and not

“Unless otherwise stated, references to "allies" include yourself.”

and not

“Where explicitly stated, references to "allies" include yourself.”

That “in most cases” is the troublesome bit, but AFAIK tends to be interpreted as “by default yes.”

I’d also agree with Bronk that this doesn’t seem all that problematic insofar as (1) you need at least 4 levels of ranger, i.e. not full sneak attack and (2) it wouldn’t turn all your attacks into sneak attacks, only attacks following successful hits in that same round, and only against foes that can be flanked

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Originally Posted by Luckmann

I stumbled over the ACF for rangers, Distracting Attack, from PHBII, and the way I'm reading it, the way I understand it, you're always your own ally (unless it says otherwise), so if you have sneak attacks, won't it turn every single one of your attacks into sneak attacks?

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"This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first."

So not every attack by you, but every *other* attack by you. Assuming your ranger hits a target four times:

Attack#1 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#2 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
Attack#3 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#4 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
etc.

It would be cool if it worked that way, but it doesn't.

It means if you attack an enemy, then it's considered flanked for your friends. You can be side by side with another party member and if you hit an enemy right in front of you first, that enemy is considered flanked by your to give the other party member(s) the +2 attack bonus and SA damage if applicable. They don't have to be on opposite sides of the common opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RNightstalker

It would be cool if it worked that way, but it doesn't.

It means if you attack an enemy, then it's considered flanked for your friends. You can be side by side with another party member and if you hit an enemy right in front of you first, that enemy is considered flanked by your to give the other party member(s) the +2 attack bonus and SA damage if applicable. They don't have to be on opposite sides of the common opponent.

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The reason why RAW it might work like that is because the wording is that the target is considered flanked for your allies. And in most cases, references to allies include references to yourself. White Raven Tactics bootstrap levitation is built on this same idea.

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Originally Posted by Darrin

"This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first."

So not every attack by you, but every *other* attack by you. Assuming your ranger hits a target four times:

Attack#1 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#2 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
Attack#3 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#4 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
etc.

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Which is one reason I wish I'd known about this feature before I built my most recent two-weapon rogue. If the DM had gone for the definition of allies to include myself, I'd actually have considered doing some sort of "trade out all the Ranger things" build with an intent to head into Rogue afterward; sure, I lose 2d6 sneak attack damage on the way, but if I can finagle a martial stance I can get that back via Shadow Hand, and take up an Assassination weapon. Or put a level of Thug in there. Ranger even gives you the right combat style. Not optimal, sure, but reliably being able to self-generate flank conditions in a two-weapon pass for a Rogue is gold, next to all that skulking around in shadows and trying to turn invisible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darrin

"This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first."

So not every attack by you, but every *other* attack by you.

Attack#1 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#2 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
Attack#3 hits: Target is now considered flanked.
Attack#4 hits: Target takes precision damage, is no longer flanked.
etc.

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Presumably a bit better than that (“whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged), that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating your allies’ attacks.”)

Attack 1 hits: No sneak attack, normal damage; target now considered flanked.
Attack 2 hits: Sneak attack damage. Due to successful hit, target is now considered flanked again.
Attack 3 hits: Sneak attack damage. Due to successful hit, target is now considered flanked again.
Attack 4 hits: Sneak attack damage. Due to successful hit, target is now considered flanked again, until start of next turn (e.g. for an AoO or for an actual ally’s attack).

Which only works on a chain of hits, cf.

Attack 1 hits: No sneak attack, normal damage; target now considered flanked.
Attack 2 misses.
Attack 3 hits: No sneak attack, normal damage; target now considered flanked.
Attack 4 hits: Sneak attack damage. Due to successful hit, target is now considered flanked again, until start of next turn (e.g. for an AoO or for an actual ally’s attack).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saintheart

The reason why RAW it might work like that is because the wording is that the target is considered flanked for your allies. And in most cases, references to allies include references to yourself. White Raven Tactics bootstrap levitation is built on this same idea.

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Most cases, not all cases. This is one case where it isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RNightstalker

Most cases, not all cases. This is one case where it isn't.

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Is that an opinion/inference, or is there something explicit to affirm that?

So if you wanna jump through hoops for this... Two-weapon fighting ranger ( or lots of natural attacks ) and a willing DM

1 barb ( pounce ) / 1 wizard ( sword of arcane order sterf and shooting star sub level ) / 1 spell thief ( master spellthief ) / 17 ranger ( we can't do mystic ranger unless DM is willing to let you give up a wild cohort. Rangers can't always have nice thing ) with one of the feats that lets you swap arcane casting for divine and vice versa. Illumians with signs for +CL per casting class. Ranger has wonky caster level due to SoAO and sub level and illumian, Wizard wonky caster level due to SoAO and sub level and illumian, spell thief slightly wonky caster level due to Illumian. A possible slight nerf due to feat used to turn divine spells into arcane. All these added together due to master spell thief. Divide it by 3 ( Hunter's eye ) and you have sneak attack every other attack for one round. At caster level 30, this is 10d6 sneak attack.

Throw in gnomish quick razor ( flat-footed and reduces need for flanking ) and you can ( majority of the time cause immunities here and there ) sneak attack every attack using the razors.

OR just reserves of strength to fireball ( more than 10d6 damage ) from a distance. Whichever is your choice.

Metagic Mod: Sneak Attacks are ineffective against the Unthread.