xxxxxxxxxxxx
Printable View
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Personally, I would grant larger effects at some point, and especially grant poison/disease immunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddragon1
You misspelled "Sorcerer or a Favored Soul" :smalltongue:Quote:
Spells
A sacred vanguard casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list as well as abjuration, enchantment, and illusion spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
Any specific reasons for these? I get that this is supposed to be MADder than a bardbarian, but perhaps fill it in the fluff.Quote:
To learn and cast a spell, a sacred vanguard must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sacred vanguard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sacred vanguard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a sacred vanguard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sacred Vanguard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
Quote:
Sacred vanguards meditate for their spells. A sacred vanguard must spend 1 hour in quiet contemplation to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a sacred vanguard can prepare spells.
Copy/paste a bit more? By RAW, spells cast in the last 8 hours don't count against him.I think I'm wrong here, but I would check the SRD to see if I'm missing anything here.
ERROR 404: Table not foundQuote:
A sacred vanguard’s selection of spells is limited. A sacred vanguard begins play knowing seven 0-level spells and three 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sacred vanguard level, he gains three new spells of any level he can currently cast. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sacred vanguard knows is not affected by his Intelligence score; the numbers on Table: Sacred Vanguard Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be spells chosen from the cleric list or abjuration, enchantment, or illusion spells sorcerer/wizard spell list.
I think it's pretty good. essentially trades off another casting stat in exchange for "dual*" casting. Only problem is that the class doesn't have fluff, and the short amount here doesn't quite explain why only *Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion...Quote:
Making homebrew and no one can stop me! Mwa ha ha ha! Technically still not as strong as a druid (which is a low bar for balance, but still). Multiple ability dependence caster. Treat fluff as unaffiliated cleric that's kind of like a sorceror in some ways.
Actually it looks kinda like a distorted beguiler, which already spontaneously casts Enchantment and Illusion spells...
Gave a bit more, but 9th level spells are already nice imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
Actually, it's correct because a cleric or wizard must prepare spells in advance and this class doesn't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
Yep, I'll have to think up some fluff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
I'll have to look into this carefully. It's a real shame that the SRD causes my computer to lock up sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
"Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
I'll have to think of some fluff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
Sort of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaty14
.
If you change the table's header from this
[table="width:600, class: head alt1 alt2"]to this
[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
the table will be more readable and look like this
The Shadow Vanguard
Saves Spells Per Day Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (sleep), Spells (7/0 level, 3/1st level) 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (fear), Spells Known +3 6 4 - - - - - - - - 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 5 - - - - - - - - 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shadow Vanguard (poison), Spells Known +3 6 6 3 - - - - - - - 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 6 4 - - - - - - - 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (disease), Spells Known +3 6 6 5 3 - - - - - - 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 4 - - - - - - 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (heat and cold), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - - 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Shadow Vanguard (compulsions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (illusions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (paralysis), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Shadow Vanguard (necromancy), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (transmutation), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (mind-affecting), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
Updated table to look nicer as quoted. I'm not entirely sure why it does, but I'll take it. Thanks for the assist.Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsi
So just to be sure: Its a limited List prepared Caster?
THat depends on all three mental Attributes?
That explains the amount of BAB and other bonuses then. ;)
Not bad overall, if one likes something MAD, still you might want to switch it to spontaneous casting, it has limited spells known anyway already, and clarify: are the arcane Spells the Shadowguard learns (from the allowed Schools) still considered Arcane, or do they cast these arcane Spells as Divine Spells?
It is a spontaneous caster... what part is making it sound like it's not though? (I think I may have fixed the part that could have caused the confusion)Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDeath
They are considered divine spells.
Technically, it not only depends on all three mental attributes, it also depends on all three physical attributes and has good reason to take them (lack of heavy armor, str and con for getting into melee). It is completely MAD. The cleric list isn't especially blasty and your save DC's likely won't be good, so the abjuration and cleric spells let you use your melee abilities to deal the damage instead.
Think of it a bit like a tier 2 druid. Except that you won't need an excel spreadsheet to run it in exchange for giving up the power of playing a druid and you get the novelty of full BAB which is fun.
Note: I'm debating just having it be +1 sacred bonus to saving throws at 1st + 1 per 3 levels (4, 7, 10, etc) for simplicity.
Now its clearer, yes.
Simply a weird formulation, if you ask me.
Is there a list of their maximum SPells known/Spell level enywhere? The "get +3 SPells each level tells me their maximum number in total, but not if they are allocated to a specific level (aside from those at level 1 that is). Simply giving 3 new ones of any Level they can cast could result in a Spontaneus Caster with 6+ Spells/Day to choose from just about any Cleric (and extra School) level 9 Spell. Is that intentional?
If not, maybe say that at each level only 1 SPell may be spent for the maximum SPell level known?
Generally I`d opt for giving them fewer Level 9 Spells though, 6 to choose from is massive, bad DC`s (without cheese, as always) nonwithstanding, there are enough where you dont NEED high DC`s.
As for the DC`s: Would make it simpler, but given that it would also nullify their additional weakness of 2 low saves, I`d would not recommend it.
I had a feeling on the saving throw bonuses that would be an issue, with confirmation I think I'll leave it as is then.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDeath
Another feature I'd thought of just recently is removing the saves (keeping the immunities later on) and making it so you can cast any abjuration on yourself as a swift action a number of times per day.
As for the spell list, the cleric list (at least in core) isn't impressive enough for me to be too worried about having access to that many 9th level spells. Clerics have access to them all rather than just a few. Illusion and enchantment usually allow saves. If I'd given them transmutation in particular . Though if you can think of something particularly game breaking I'd look into it. If it were that strong spontaneous variant clerics would would be too strong as well.
The problem, as always with the big three, is their support in other books.
If you are restricting them to players guide spells to. Choose from, I rescind my above point.
If not, some book will add more troublesome spells, and the three additional schools offer quite some flexibility as well.
Think about a limit on the say 8th and 9th level spells at least. Other classes don't get as many of them as of first level either :)
I was looking at the effects of MAD on spellcasters and even with the extra flexibility of more spells known at higher levels they may need it just to compete with shapechange and lower damage numbers. Usually high level spell casters have a good idea what they will pick anyways and being limited to spells known in exchange for spontaneous casting is less useful. I could lower it to 2 instead of 3 at those levels, but with mad added in I think they will need every advantage they can get. Particularly if a DM is stingy with magic items to help with mad later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDeath
Though in light of your balance concerns about external spells I won't be going forward with any of the buffs I'd planned (particularly the swift action abjuration option because by not adding it they will have the action economy also working as a balancing factor).
I feel the class is definitely less powerful with comparable optimization to tier 1's and even sorcerer tier 2's, but it's more fun. You're trading power for fun basically, and that's a trade I like (as long as it's not totally irrelevant).