Simple Q&A D&D 4e Thread 3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garrnk

thats what i am afraid of any recomendations of talking to him about it without throwing the rule book rudely in his face?

---

IN terms of the RAW he could be using (or you could tell him to use) the inherent bonus found in the DMG2 and the Dar Sun campaign setting. Effectively they give you a bonus to hit/damage/crits/defenses just like magical armor/weapons/and accessories do but without any magic items to be found. It allows you to keep up with the basic math of the game without actually being forced to use items. If you do get an item on that system then the bonuses would overlap and not stack (if your inherent bonus was at +1 and you geta +2 sword then you get the +2 bonus not +3).

THis would be a good way to go for the flavor without losing your basic effectiveness.

Q31

The paladin in our party marked a sea kraken. One of the kraken's abilities reads so:
"The kraken uses crushing tentacles twice and devourer of ships once".

Obviously, crushing tentacles is it's main attack. My question is, if one crushing tentacles targeted the paladin and another one targeted someone else, should is be considered as the kraken made an attack without including the paladin within it's targets, thus "breaking" the mark and suffers damage?

Thanks ahead :smallsmile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rui

My question is, if one crushing tentacles targeted the paladin and another one targeted someone else, should is be considered as the kraken made an attack without including the paladin within it's targets, thus "breaking" the mark and suffers damage?

---

A31-ish

Not sure if there's specific errata on it, but I've always interpreted the marked condition to trigger based upon the entire action. As such, with a power that states "Effect: Make two basic attacks against different creatures", if at least one of those basic attacks is against the individual that has it marked, the marked condition doesn't trigger. Otherwise effects like "Effect: Make a basic attack against every creature within reach" which is effectively a close burst, would trigger the marked condition, which doesn't really make sense to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rui

Q31

The paladin in our party marked a sea kraken. One of the kraken's abilities reads so:
"The kraken uses crushing tentacles twice and devourer of ships once".

Obviously, crushing tentacles is it's main attack. My question is, if one crushing tentacles targeted the paladin and another one targeted someone else, should is be considered as the kraken made an attack without including the paladin within it's targets, thus "breaking" the mark and suffers damage?

Thanks ahead :smallsmile:

---

A31: It does break the mark. They're separate attacks by definition, and even a melee or ranged attack with 2 or more target breaks the mark (see PHB 270 under melee and ranged attacks).

A31 The paladin mark triggers if "it targets any of your allies with an attack power that doesn't include you as a target". It's important to note that this looks at the power, not at an individual attack roll.

The kraken's combo attack (crush twice, devour once) is a single attack power. This is because it has the attack symbol on its statblock. Since the kraken does target the paladin with its combo power, this does not trigger the mark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

A31 The paladin mark triggers if "it targets any of your allies with an attack power that doesn't include you as a target". It's important to note that this looks at the power, not at an individual attack roll.

The kraken's combo attack (crush twice, devour once) is a single attack power. This is because it has the attack symbol on its statblock. Since the kraken does target the paladin with its combo power, this does not trigger the mark.

---

I'd disagree with that- I'd say it's one power that lets the monster use three other powers without spending actions. Each of those is resolved individually.

A31
I believe this is ambiguous within the rules as written and can be interpreted either way. For my reasoning, see the above exchange. More succinctly, the game is not clear about the exact mechanics of powers calling other powers, so it leaves room for interpretation when this happens.

A31: Yeah, one of the issues of 4e is that R&D defined Attack to mean 4 things:
Attack roll
Attack power
The act of actually making an attack
Secondary/Tertiary Attack lines are individual attacks

And the problem with that is you often get into weird, "Wait, what did they mean again?" issues such as this one.

My general rule of thumb is that every time a marked opponent has a choice of who they might attack, if they're not as part of that choice attacking the Defender, they violate the mark.

And I'd treat the Kraken's power as 3 separate instances on that basis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

A31 The paladin mark triggers if "it targets any of your allies with an attack power that doesn't include you as a target". It's important to note that this looks at the power, not at an individual attack roll.

The kraken's combo attack (crush twice, devour once) is a single attack power. This is because it has the attack symbol on its statblock. Since the kraken does target the paladin with its combo power, this does not trigger the mark.

---

While the combo attack is a single attack power, it is not one that targets the paladin. Only the sub-attacks have targets. Each of those is also an attack power, and the second crushing tentacles is an attack power that doesn't target the paladin. So it triggers divine challenge.

How do multiple hits with the same power work with vulnerabilities?
Such as hitting the same vulnerable target twice with both instances of Static Charge or Chromatic Orb?

Does the vulnerability count for each attack or only once per power?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZickZak

How do multiple hits with the same power work with vulnerabilities?
Such as hitting the same vulnerable target twice with both instances of Static Charge or Chromatic Orb?

Does the vulnerability count for each attack or only once per power?

---

A32

As written, it counts per attack, just like bonuses (technically, vuln applies per application of damage; each attack is a separate application of damage; it's just like resistance). I'm not sure how you're getting multiple attacks out of Chromatic Orb, however, since it's a single ranged attack. I believe that Static Charge would double dip on lightning vulnerability if you hit two targets adjacent to each other (1d8 to target and CHA to adjacent; 1d8 to adjacent and CHA to target; 4 total applications of damage), though I could see the argument that it wouldn't because it's a single attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThePurple

A32
I'm not sure how you're getting multiple attacks out of Chromatic Orb, however, since it's a single ranged attack...I could see the argument that it wouldn't because it's a single attack.

---

You hit a creature and then one creature within 5 squares from the target. You can hit the same target, so its CON damage only, but then it pops the vulnerability.

Q 33: Does the Street Thug feat allow rogues to sneak attack with the specific weapon named mace, or any weapon of the mace group?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZickZak

You hit a creature and then one creature within 5 squares from the target. You can hit the same target, so its CON damage only, but then it pops the vulnerability.

---

You're talking about Chromatic Bolt, not Chromatic Orb. And I'm pretty sure that "one creature within 5 squares of the target" doesn't include the target. At least that's how I've always interpreted it in my games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rusty Spoon

Q 32: Does the Street Thug feat allow rogues to sneak attack with the specific weapon named mace, or any weapon of the mace group?

---

This should be Q33; Q32 wasn't labelled but still existed.

A33

It only allows rogues to make sneak attacks with the specific mace weapon. If it were applied to the entire group, it would probably have the "with one hand" modifier, like Tunnel Stalker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThePurple

You're talking about Chromatic Bolt, not Chromatic Orb. And I'm pretty sure that "one creature within 5 squares of the target" doesn't include the target. At least that's how I've always interpreted it in my games.

---

RAW I'd say that's wrong- they're a creature and within 5 squares of themselves (adjacent is a bigger question).

Does a frost weapon also convert the damage from malec-keth janissary lv 16 feature?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einrikr

Does a frost weapon also convert the damage from malec-keth janissary lv 16 feature?

---

Yes. If your attacks are weapon attacks and otherwise untyped, Frost Brand might be an alternative enchantment that would work, though it is a Rare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThePurple

You're talking about Chromatic Bolt, not Chromatic Orb. And I'm pretty sure that "one creature within 5 squares of the target" doesn't include the target. At least that's how I've always interpreted it in my games.

---

Oops, yes. Chromatic Bolt.
I have asked WotC a few years ago and they said you can hit the target twice, with both instances of the power.
I didnt ask if it triggers vulnerabilities though and now they dont support 4e anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZickZak

Oops, yes. Chromatic Bolt.
I have asked WotC a few years ago and they said you can hit the target twice, with both instances of the power.
I didnt ask if it triggers vulnerabilities though and now they dont support 4e anymore.

---

As noted above- yes, RAW it can damage the target twice (compare to other powers that add "other than the target" to such language, and note that it came out in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, which was released in 2012 and was one of the last books, so they should have added that language if they wanted it). And yes, it does ping vulnerabilities twice. And no, it's still not as good as Hellish Rebuke if you have a way to damage yourself or reasonably expect to take damage.

Q35: How does Channel Divinity: Turn Undead work with the errata given in the rules update? All the update says is:
"Page 62: This power’s damage now increases at levels 11 and 21. The area increases to close burst 3 at level 11 and close burst 5 at level 21."
However, it does not say what the damage increases to, nor does it give an example block.

A35: The damage increases to 2d10+WIS at L11, and 3d10+WIS at L21. Aside from that and the burst increasing thing you already know about, it's as printed.

Q 36

What's the meaning of "Melee 1" in the targeting section of the janissary charge power?

A 36

It's a typo. The range should actually be Personal since it only affects you and the power it allows you to use already has a range.

Q37: In the Martial Power 2 handbook the fighter power Reaper's Hook says this:

If the target moves before the end of your next turn, it takes extra damage

equal to your Constitution modifier. Weapon: If you're wielding an axe or a pick, you can shift 1

square after the attack. You pull the target to the square you vacated.

Therfore, If i have the weapon required to pull the target, does he take the extra con dmg right away or need to use his move action for it to apply it?

A37 The extra damage applies immediately when the hit target moves, no matter what weapon you are using.

If you happen to hit with one of the special weapons for this attack, you get to shift 1 and slide the enemy right when you make the attack (this does not require a move action on your part). Your shift and slide does not require the target to move and take the extra damage (they wouldn't have had a chance to, because this part of the power only applies immediately after hitting). If you shift and slide them, and they, before the end of your next turn, move from the square that you slid them to, they will take the damage as described above.

I'll agree the wording on this power might be a little odd, but I believe the reading I describe above is consistent with the way other powers with similar wording work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dariathalon

A37 The extra damage applies immediately when the hit target moves, no matter what weapon you are using.

---

Right. Just be aware that extra damage doesn't typically have any bonuses attached to it except possibly vulnerability

Really? Last I heard, "move" included any instance of exiting a square to enter another, so the pull should trigger the bonus damage in that power. Not so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimers

Really? Last I heard, "move" included any instance of exiting a square to enter another, so the pull should trigger the bonus damage in that power. Not so?

---

Extra Damage does not get to add bonus damage typically. As an example, I have +10 bonus to damage and I get +4 of Extra Damage due to my 18 Con - I do +4 damage.

But if I'm using a Frost Weapon and have Lasting Frost, I probably established 5 vulnerability to cold and the extra damage is cold - so 5 points of vulnerability damage on top of it for a total of 9.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MwaO

Extra Damage does not get to add bonus damage typically.

---

To elaborate, it all comes down to the specific wording.

A vast majority of increases to damage come in the forms of "(some type) bonus to damage rolls" (power bonuses are the most common), which only apply to occasions when there is a roll involved in determining the amount of damage dealt. There are also a lot of forms of additional elemental damage (Art1 Burning Weapons and similar powers) that provide a buff that has you "deal additional (type) damage when you hit", which only applies when you actually make an attack roll and hit (and generally require a specific source for the attack, like a melee or weapon attack).

Pretty much the only source of additional damage that you're going to get that doesn't care about the source of the damage is vulnerability, which applies to any source of that specific type of damage regardless of whether it was flat damage or variable damage, an effect or a hit, attack/action or trait.