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[3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
So, I've never played D&D, just spent far more time than I should have reading the SRD.
Some friends have a game just started (they've played one game day's worth) that I have the option of joining, if I like. The game is played Core only; really just using d20SRD since most of the players have long-ago lost most of their books and the DM has the most experience with Core. The scenario is homebrewed, sandbox style.
There's a Gnome Druid (just acquired a Wolf companion), a Drow Fighter (at level 1; everyone else is level 3), a Halfling Fighter (who is insane), and a Human Rogue. The Drow Fighter has bow specialization and is planning to get some Wizard and then go Arcane Archer, but other than that the Druid is the only magic in the group.
They are a group of Evil PCs, played as simply having no regard for others beyond what they can get out of them (so reasonably loyal to each other, insofar as they are dependent on each other, but uncaring about the life or property of others). They started by being released from prison, the Druid went and found a Wolf, the others equipped themselves in the market and went looking for people to rob. At a brothel where the Rogue was looking to pick up lockpicks, the Halfling (Fighter...) attempted to pick-pocket a rich fat dude. That ended in an explosion of gold coins, a fight with three guards that very nearly killed the Halfling, and then rousing a female Half-Orc Paladin who had been sitting in the brothel (?!), from whom they fled.
Anyway, I'm interested in joining, and would like to do something magic-related. Since I've read TLN's Batman guide, I'm favoring Wizard - just because I know more about them than the other classes. Arcane sounds cooler than Divine, plus they've already got the Druid, but I don't really know. Information on how the different magic-based classes play (especially guides or thoughts on playing them) would be great, because there's a lot you can't get from just reading the stats.
As for PrC, initially I was considering Mystic Theurge, but a bit of reading indicated that A. Divine Spells aren't as good as Arcane (usually), and thus accessing the opposite spell list isn't great, and B. losing three Caster Levels is unacceptable. My thoughts were to be something like "I have lots of spell slots, but weaker spells - Quicken lots and lots of things" - but choosing an underpowered class with even more forethought necessary seems like a poor choice for a newb. Plus the lower CLs means I don't have that many extra spell slots (which was disappointing to learn).
So now I'm considering Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage, where I'd get Wizard enough to access Loremaster, get a few Archmage levels interspersed in the Loremaster, finishing up probably Wiz5/Lore10/Arch5 (though maybe not Arch5, get extra Wiz or something), but TLN's guide mentioned something with Wizard/Rogue/Archmage/Arcane Trickster, which sounds really cool. I like the idea of something little different from just straight-up mage. He didn't go into a lot of detail on it though.
But then there's Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Sorcerer, about which I know very little (beyond their stats, which are difficult to turn into understanding). There's already a Druid in the group, so I probably wouldn't take that. Information (and especially guides!) on the others would be awesome.
Oh, and I'm also interested in Crafting. The Drow's already crafting bows for himself and the Rogue, and brewing potions for himself ("Drow sleepyjuice" he calls it), but I was thinking Wondrous Item and Rod, maybe Wand. But it's difficult to get a feel for how much I'll be able to actually get crafting done, and how worth it is to get those.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Well, your build idea won't work. Loremaster isn't enterable until after level 7 due to skill point requirements.
More info would be great. What books does your group have available? Divine Oracle is a really good class for a wizard to take before entering Loremaster, and it gives you an ability that is nearly identical to Evasion, and access to a bunch of neato Divination spells.
If you have Complete Mage, I'd highly suggest something more like this:
Focused Specialist Conjourer (banning Enchantment, Evocation, and Abjuration), and focusing on utilizing cloud spells, debuff spells, and various teleport spells to influence the battle. At level 3, you would probably look like this:
Human
Focused Specialist Conjourer1 Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, Scribe Scroll
Conjourer2
Conjourer3 Metamagic School Focus (Conjouration)
And your spells, assuming an 18 starting int would be
1st
*Sculpted Grease (using MMSF)
*Mage Armor
*Benign Transpostion (in Spell Compendium)
Ray of Enfeeblement
Color Spray
2nd
* Scupted Glitterdust (using MMSF)
* Sculpted Glitterdust (again, MMSF)
* Web
Invisibility
With the * spells being required Conjourations due to Focused Specialist.
The key is to try not to use very many spells per combat. 1-2 should be enough to cripple your foes badly enough that your party can kill them easily. Especially Sculpted Glitterdust. That'll be a killer. This low level build will really make you effective in the party, although your friends will all think they are doing all the work (this is the Batman style of play). Glitterdust is AMAZING, since its a multitarget Blindness, and blinding a foe is almost like casting Greater Invisibility on your whole party. Thats awesome.
Don't go Mystic Theurge. You touched on all the reasons its bad. The worst is the 3 level loss. Thats just inexcusable for any class that claims to be a "primary caster".
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Well, your build idea won't work. Loremaster isn't enterable until after level 7 due to skill point requirements.
Ah, ok, then I could do Wizard 7 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 3 (though would probably more like Wizard 7 / Loremaster 5 / Archmage 3 / Loremaster 5). Arcane Reach, Arcane Power, and Mastery of Shaping would be fine. I probably would have gotten the SLA High Arcana if possible, but I think that's fine.
Still, I was primarily interested in information on the base classes. Sorry if that was unclear. Especially Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
More info would be great. What books does your group have available?
The SRD, and that's about it. I might be able to convince the DM to allow other things, but he'd rather not. He wants to keep things simple and also wants to have all of the information easily looked up on the website. This is largely for the benefit of the group, some of whom haven't played D&D in a while (and me, who hasn't at all). Just less stuff to keep track of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
The key is to try not to use very many spells per combat. 1-2 should be enough to cripple your foes badly enough that your party can kill them easily. Especially Sculpted Glitterdust. That'll be a killer. This low level build will really make you effective in the party, although your friends will all think they are doing all the work (this is the Batman style of play). Glitterdust is AMAZING, since its a multitarget Blindness, and blinding a foe is almost like casting Greater Invisibility on your whole party. Thats awesome.
Yup, had noted Glitterdust as one of the better spells. TLN mentioned that.
But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Don't go Mystic Theurge. You touched on all the reasons its bad. The worst is the 3 level loss. Thats just inexcusable for any class that claims to be a "primary caster".
Yup, figured that out. Without the 3 level loss it'd be pretty awesome, obviously, heh, being able to be a Cleric or Druid and a Wizard or Sorcerer. *shrug*
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
But then there's Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Sorcerer, about which I know very little (beyond their stats, which are difficult to turn into understanding). There's already a Druid in the group, so I probably wouldn't take that. Information (and especially guides!) on the others would be awesome.
Druid - powerful, very powerful, mostly due to Wildshape. A Druid with access to the right gear can out-fight just about any Fighter... AND cast top-level spells.
Cleric - similar deal to the Druid, except with Personal-only buffs (Divine Power, Righteous Might) instead of Wildshape. Gets "Turn Undead", which is not so useful for its intended purpose, but with the right feats you can spent it on awesome things (like free metamagic!)
Bard - jack of all trades, as-written sucks at about all of them. Except lying; bards are the best liars in Core D&D, rivaled only by Beguilers from PHB2 out of core. They can be turned into awesome powerhouses, but it takes a lot of effort. Definitely not newb-friendly.
Sorcerer - more spells per day, but much less flexibility, as compared to a Wizard. Loses out overall, but are good for those who dislike the bookkeeping of Wizard spellcasting. Honestly not a bad choice for a newb spellcaster, as long as you pick a good set of spells (hint: you'll want something targeting each of Fort, Ref, Will, touch AC, as well as at least one flexible illusion, summoning, and buff spell).
Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.
That help?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Ohi. Sure, you can join. :smallbiggrin:
If you are new, and want to play an Arcane Caster with a bajillion spell slots - I say Sorcerer is definitely the way to go. It lacks the bookkeeping mess that comes with "prepared" casters, and can spam more spells than anyone else (in the PHB, anyway).
The Wizard is widely regarded to be the more potentially powerful class of the two, yes.
It is just that it is also the one that is easier to screw up and more difficult to bring to its peak potential, I'd say. =/
(I have an Evoker in my flesh-and-blood group. You have read TLN's guide, so 'nuff said.)
But of course, if you want to play a bookwormy master-of-the-universe caster, screw my advice and play a goddamn Batman Wizard. You seem interested in it and you do have a nice plan for it. :smalltongue:
As for that:
Quote:
Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.
Consider this signed.
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What books does your group have available?
(Chimes in, his DM here)
Just the SRD, so far. The group has the problem of being scattered across the globe AND across the entire 3.5 experience curve. Since the most experienced player seems to be content with it, I decided to limit this to stuff we can link and show to one another.
So far this means that I can't scare them with Mindbenders or rip them to pieces with Frenzied Berserkers either, but that is the price I paid to keep everyone in the loop. =/
Stumbled across this guide to free D&D a few days ago, though, was always about to share it...
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Okay, as far as the base classes go:
Cleric: Full spell casting progression. If you're playing an evil cleric, you will be able to convert any of your non-domain prepared spells into inflict wounds spells, which means you touch an enemy and they take Xd8 worth of damage. You'll probably be expected to be the party healer, which means you'll have to memorize healing spells. Clerics have decent hit points and can wear heavy armor, which means in theory they can enter into combat, and get some pretty cool spells. Take a look at the cleric spell lists for more info. Plus, they get domains, which grant them extra abilities and allow them to take one domain spell for each spell level; domain spells often come off the arcane casting list, so you can have a cleric who might know teleport or something like that.
Sorcerer: Very similar to the wizard. Instead of having access to whatever spells are in your spellbook (and having the ability to add more spells to your spellbook as you go), a sorcerer knows a fixed list of spells that they can cast a higher number of times per day. For example: a first level wizard might have five first level spells in his spellbook. He memorizes three of them for that day, and once those are cast, he's done. A sorcerer only knows two first level spells, but he can cast those spells five times a day. (These numbers are pulled completely out of the clear blue sky, they're not really accurate). Sorcerers are based on Charisma rather than Intelligence, and get a slightly different set of skills, iirc.
Druid: Full spell progression, decent hit points, and the ability to turn into animals. They have a decent selection of divine spells, and their wild shape ability makes them pretty useful in combat.
The party you've described is lacking in both a primary healer AND a primary arcane caster, which is a problem. Basically, you need to decide if you want to be able to provide healing for the party (if you don't, you're all going to be spending cash on potions/scrolls/wands), or if you want the incredible piles of useful spells that an arcane caster can bring. I'd suggest going with the wizard-- you seem more interested in it at this point, and you've got a couple divine-ish casters already.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
They do have a Healer, the Druid. Vigor makes him better than the Cleric at that.
@The OP:My favorite caster for simplicity, usefulness, and fun is the Beguiler. You literally can't make bad decisions while building them, just put everything into Int and you're good. It's non-core, but one of the group might have access. Spontaneous casting from a pre-chosen list with very good spells on it, light armor, and 6+Int skills give you a lot more options than a standard Sorcerer and it's a lot easier than picking up a Wizard for the first time. Pretty much, it's Arcane Trickster out of the box.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?
Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.
After all the enemies are minimal threats, I usually get out the xbow/bow at that point and doing my awesome 1d6 points of damage, making sure I'm in a position where I can cast more spells if needed, without being in range of pointy things or in an area where reinforcements are likely to come from.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lsfreak
Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.
I bought a tea service for my Malconvoker once, so that I could drink tea during combat while my demonic hordes tore apart the souls of my enemies.
I liked that character. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
As much fun as wizards can be, if your party is lacking a divine type it might be better to go Druid.
While a wizard can certainly end encounters if done right, if you're just shy of right, the team could end up getting roasted.
Druids get a bit of destruction type spells. And while not nearly as fun as breathing deadly gases and exploding peoples heads, it sounds like you the group needs good support magic.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Druid - powerful, very powerful, mostly due to Wildshape. A Druid with access to the right gear can out-fight just about any Fighter... AND cast top-level spells.
Cleric - similar deal to the Druid, except with Personal-only buffs (Divine Power, Righteous Might) instead of Wildshape. Gets "Turn Undead", which is not so useful for its intended purpose, but with the right feats you can spent it on awesome things (like free metamagic!)
Bard - jack of all trades, as-written sucks at about all of them. Except lying; bards are the best liars in Core D&D, rivaled only by Beguilers from PHB2 out of core. They can be turned into awesome powerhouses, but it takes a lot of effort. Definitely not newb-friendly.
Hmm... None of those sound up my alley, really. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Sorcerer - more spells per day, but much less flexibility, as compared to a Wizard. Loses out overall, but are good for those who dislike the bookkeeping of Wizard spellcasting. Honestly not a bad choice for a newb spellcaster, as long as you pick a good set of spells (hint: you'll want something targeting each of Fort, Ref, Will, touch AC, as well as at least one flexible illusion, summoning, and buff spell).
Yeah, tough call. Things to like about both, from my perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.
That sounds like a solid plan. Would Sorcerer/Lore/Arch be substantially different (beyond the normal differences between Wizard and Sorcerer), if I decided to do that?
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Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
That help?
Certainly does!
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Originally Posted by
Ernir
Ohi. Sure, you can join. :smallbiggrin:
:sheepish: Heh, hi Ernir. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ernir
If you are new, and want to play an Arcane Caster with a bajillion spell slots - I say Sorcerer is definitely the way to go. It lacks the bookkeeping mess that comes with "prepared" casters, and can spam more spells than anyone else (in the PHB, anyway).
The Wizard is widely regarded to be the more potentially powerful class of the two, yes.
It is just that it is also the one that is easier to screw up and more difficult to bring to its peak potential, I'd say. =/
(I have an Evoker in my flesh-and-blood group. You have read TLN's guide, so 'nuff said.)
But of course, if you want to play a bookwormy master-of-the-universe caster, screw my advice and play a goddamn Batman Wizard. You seem interested in it and you do have a nice plan for it. :smalltongue:
So the Sorcerer sounds good but then so does the Wizard. Ah! Hard to say. I see the Sorcerer as more flexible per day (cast any known spell), but perhaps less forgiving to big mistakes later (since it's more difficult to learn new spells)? I'm a bit overwhelmed by the spell list; picking out favorite spells is easier said than done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ernir
Stumbled across this
guide to free D&D a few days ago, though, was always about to share it...
That's awesome! Cool, thanks. The Archivist is about the only one that really interests me... but he just seems like a Divine Wizard, I think I'd rather just go Arcane. But I've heard reference to the Archivist as potentially even more powerful - how so?
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Originally Posted by
Sstoopidtallkid
My favorite caster for simplicity, usefulness, and fun is the Beguiler. You literally can't make bad decisions while building them, just put everything into Int and you're good. It's non-core, but one of the group might have access. Spontaneous casting from a pre-chosen list with very good spells on it, light armor, and 6+Int skills give you a lot more options than a standard Sorcerer and it's a lot easier than picking up a Wizard for the first time. Pretty much, it's Arcane Trickster out of the box.
Sounds awesome; I don't have... whatever book it's from. Not available freely, either, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the advice though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lsfreak
Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.
After all the enemies are minimal threats, I usually get out the xbow/bow at that point and doing my awesome 1d6 points of damage, making sure I'm in a position where I can cast more spells if needed, without being in range of pointy things or in an area where reinforcements are likely to come from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sstoopidtallkid
I bought a tea service for my Malconvoker once, so that I could drink tea during combat while my demonic hordes tore apart the souls of my enemies.
I liked that character. :smallbiggrin:
Haha!
OK, now what if I wanted to do more of a summoner type character? I'm not certain I do - just curious. TLN implies that there are better choices than Wizard for that, and regardless it's not Batman anyway.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Beguiler is in the PHBII, a neato little book. Also contains the Duskblade, a martial caster who hits things with spells. Fun fun!
If you really want to summon, check out the Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel. Its all about being a good guy, then summoning evil things and tricking them into fighting other evil things for you. Very powerful and very flavorful. Wizard is a great base for it, especially if you are a Conjourer. There is a Conjourer Alt Class Feature in UA (and consequently on www.d20srd.org) that allows you to trade away your familar for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action instead of a full round action. This is really good for summoning. Other than that, bind a big demon, buff it to hell, cast a couple disable spells on your enemies, and then watch your pet devour their immortal souls. Its fun!
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
I recommend caring flasks of alchemist's fire and acid, as well as smoke sticks, caltrops, oil, and sunrods. And some tindertwigs.
Alchemist's fire are great for throwing at strange things growling in the dark, acid is useful for getting around things, smokesticks are a great way to get instant concealment (ie, protection), caltrops can cover your exit, and sunrods work in wet places, and are cheaper to throw away than everburning torches (brighter, too). This works for like the first 7 levels. Also, you can spend a turn throwing alchemist's fire or acid instead of using a spell. The splash damage on them is quite nice.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Oh, hey!
I noticed you have a wizard guide. Should you be contemplating sorceror instead, enjoy Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorceror Stratagems.
Should you decide to try summoning, if the book would be allowed (I notice you said core only) enjoy Treantmonk's guide to the Malconvoker. Even if you can't play one, it has and links to great advice for all summoners.
Above all, have fun!
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Beguiler is in the PHBII, a neato little book. Also contains the Duskblade, a martial caster who hits things with spells. Fun fun!
If you really want to summon, check out the Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel. Its all about being a good guy, then summoning evil things and tricking them into fighting other evil things for you. Very powerful and very flavorful. Wizard is a great base for it, especially if you are a Conjourer. There is a Conjourer Alt Class Feature in UA (and consequently on
www.d20srd.org) that allows you to trade away your familar for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action instead of a full round action. This is really good for summoning. Other than that, bind a big demon, buff it to hell, cast a couple disable spells on your enemies, and then watch your pet devour their immortal souls. Its fun!
All sounds awesome. Don't have access to those, though. Having never played D&D before, I don't intend to go out and buy a bunch of books at the moment... maybe at some point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Myrmex
I recommend caring flasks of alchemist's fire and acid, as well as smoke sticks, caltrops, oil, and sunrods. And some tindertwigs.
Alchemist's fire are great for throwing at strange things growling in the dark, acid is useful for getting around things, smokesticks are a great way to get instant concealment (ie, protection), caltrops can cover your exit, and sunrods work in wet places, and are cheaper to throw away than everburning torches (brighter, too). This works for like the first 7 levels. Also, you can spend a turn throwing alchemist's fire or acid instead of using a spell. The splash damage on them is quite nice.
Ah, that's great advice. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
streakster
Awesome! Those were exactly the kinds of things I was looking for!
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
If this is the first time you are playing an arcane caster, I cannot stress enough how much more hassle and paperwork the Wizard is.
Seriously, go Sorcerer. Read Solo's Guide, which has a LOT of 'Core Only' ideas.
Sadly, sorcerers can't go Loremaster easily, due to the requirement of having SEVEN different Divination spells and FOUR different feats.
There really isn't a decent PrC for sorcerers in Core. The Theurge is actually not looking... too bad. Particularly not if you pair it with Spontaneous Divine Casters from the SRD. Bunch of spontaneous spells available to you. Choose your Domains carefully, because those spells are added to the Spells Known. If you grab the Healing domain and the Liberation domain, you pick up all your healbot spells gratis, so you can focus on grabbing useful spells to compliment your sorcerer spell list. Like picking up Protection from Evil on your Cleric list, and picking up Hold Person a spell level sooner.
True, it isn't perfect, you will never cast 9th level spells, but at least you will have a broader versatility. If that's not your thing, go Sorcerer16/Archmage4. It sucks, but hey, it's better than nothing.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?
Yup, figured that out. Without the 3 level loss it'd be pretty awesome, obviously, heh, being able to be a Cleric or Druid and a Wizard or Sorcerer. *shrug*
battles dont last for a lot of rounds, so hopefully that wont come up. use your lower level spells if its not worth using a higher level spell, and you should be fine. you wont run out of spells per day (unless the dm gives you 6 combats or more combats in a day) once you learn to manage them.
if you ever use splatbooks, you could use an archivist to play something similar to a mystic theurge. it's the exception to the rule arcane magic is better than divine magic. the problem with mystic theurge is that you dont have enough actions to cast all of your spells, and you just cant use them all.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
I like to break spells into ranked categories:
1. Crowd Control. Barriers, area of effect debuffs, etc. Make large groups into more manageable small ones.
2. Status Effect Buffs. A control similar to crowd control, but targets friendlies. Think of it as the difference between blindness and invisibility.
3. Direct Damage. Almost as strong as the first two, and it's easier to switch energy types than to overcome immunities/counters to the first two. Especially good for area, since the total damage adds up. A more reliable backup.
4. Save or dies. Anything strong enough to be worth hitting alone (rather than using an area spell) probably has a good save, making DD usually faster. But not always. Not to be confused with area debuffs (see #1).
5. Stat buffs (+X). Usually too weak to be worth a round or spell slot. Use your leftover lower level slots for these, outside of combat.
6. Utility spells. Used so rarely you're usually better off with a scroll. You only need a couple per spell since you barely use them, making the scrolls plenty affordable. Don't bog down your prepared spell list with them. Not to be confused with #2.
X. Misc (not ranked). Clever illusions and other misc. spells can be situationally useful. Give them some thought at least.
For your first caster I'd stick to full casting for maximum effectiveness and minimum complication. Go wizard or sorcerer then prestige into lore master and/or archmage if you want. Be especially careful about spell selection if going sorcerer since you can't swap them later. So sorcs may be less work but they're harder to make. Other than that the strategy is the same between the two.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericgrau
Be especially careful about spell selection if going sorcerer since you can't swap them later.
Well... actually you can, to an extent.
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Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows...
And etc. etc, you get the gist.
Also, I support Sorcerer over Wizard. Wizards are way annoying to keep track of- you have to figure out what spells to prepare every day, you have to figure out how to get new spells (because even being AS good as a sorcerer requires you to find spell scrolls/spell books/ways to learn spells and invest in them). For a new player less used to regulating their power, a Wizard is more difficult since they have significantly less spells per day, as well.
Wizards require tons of managing, and in the end I disagree with Ericgrau- they're just as difficult to make as a Sorcerer is, because they're based on all the same mechanics. If you know how to make a Wizard, you can make a Sorcerer. If you don't know how to make either, you might as well go for a Sorcerer because it is less confusing, and spells are the emphasis (and if you don't know the spells and how to use them properly, you'll be just as ineffective- if not more- with a wizard, who has less power per day to throw around).
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
my first character was a divine metamagic cleric and it worked out fine. hes read the guides to wizards and knows what spells to pick. he is not going to have many problems. its a bit work intensive to start out, but after that its not bad.
i think he will do good as a wizard.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
That sounds like a solid plan. Would Sorcerer/Lore/Arch be substantially different (beyond the normal differences between Wizard and Sorcerer), if I decided to do that?
Loremaster is hard to enter as a Sorcerer. Wizards can get a lot more spells and easily pick up the 7 Divination spells, but for Sorcs that's really going to hurt a lot. That's almost half of your spells known at the point when you can start gaining access to it! Also, it requires two knowledge skills, and Sorcs only have one as a class skill, and few enough skillpoints already. It's possible (and there's tricks to help), but it's prohibitively difficult to go straight in like that. To be honest, if I was in a core-only game and I wanted to go that route, I'd consider playing a Sorcerer 6 / Wizard 1 (or Cleric 1, or Druid 1) / Loremaster X. All will get you in much more easily than straight Sorcerer, without putting you so far behind that you couldn't still function. That said, there's plenty of other good PrCs out there that Sorcs can enter just fine.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
-snips a textblock which basically said the same thing I said an hour and a half ago- That said, there's plenty of other good PrCs out there that Sorcs can enter just fine.
Not in Core, there isn't... read the OP again.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Answering the question of "what do you do after your 1 or 2 control spells?", if you go outside of core to a book called "Complete Mage", there are these feats called reserve feats that let you use a spell-like ability at will as long as you have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet used. For example, there is a feat called "Fiery Burst" that lets you create a five-foot radius mini-fireball as long as you have a fire spell of second level or higher prepared, doing 1d6 per level of the spell, reflex save halves. Beats a wizard using a crossbow any day. Plus, you can pretend to be Roy Mustang.
Dedicated damage spells will of course be more powerful, but this way you can burn things all you want while only requiring a single spell slot to be held in reserve.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Waspinator
Answering the question of "what do you do after your 1 or 2 control spells?", if you go outside of core to a book called "Complete Mage", there are these feats called reserve feats that let you use a spell-like ability at will as long as you have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet used. For example, there is a feat called "Fiery Burst" that lets you create a five-foot radius mini-fireball as long as you have a fire spell of second level or higher prepared, doing 1d6 per level of the spell, reflex save halves. Beats a wizard using a crossbow any day. Plus, you can pretend to be Roy Mustang.
Dedicated damage spells will of course be more powerful, but this way you can burn things all you want while only requiring a single spell slot to be held in reserve.
1) Core Only
2) Most reserve feats SUCK. Fiery Burst is the worst feat to get as a Sorcerer. He has so much greater damage potential with a great many other things at his disposal.
3) A Sorcerer who only has one or two spells worth casting in combat needs to go hang up his character sheet and roll a Fighter.
Seriously, by round 3, Murphy's Laws of Combat will have begun reshaping things, and you can situationally either use Save or Loose effects on stragglers, buff allies, or just look that damn cool by striking an awesome pose while the rest of combat is going on about you.
If you want blasting all day long, go Warlock. At least they do it better than reserve feats.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
Not in Core, there isn't... read the OP again.
Ah my apologies, I missed your post. My comments about dip-entry to Loremaster still stand; it's maybe not the most optimized build ever, but certainly entirely playable and will get him in without much muss and fuss.
As to Core-only PrCs... well, he didn't actually say "Core", he said "SRD". And in SRD there's Battle Sorcerer 6 / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight X, which is again maybe not the most optimized, but very easy to play, will give him good hands-on experience with arcane magic, and should be at least reasonable even if he messes up spell selection. Battle Sorc will improve his gish-ness and let him actually wear armor (a weakness in Eldritch Knight as-printed), and he'll still hit 9th level spells eventually.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Using Core books only:
Sorcerer (Cannon) = Cannon + Heartbeat. You walk around and blast things from a long way away... (you could be the dude who could create an entire illusionary world around other beings 24/7 if you want...)
Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) = Everybody gets neutered. Hold Person, Enfeeblement, Grease... if it is an enchantment/necromancy and likely to make someone else's life harder... that's your kind of spell.
Wizard (ALL KINDS) = "I believe I have Rary's Rather Large Rat Repellant Emanating Fog of Lavender in my scrollcase here somewhere... oh there it is right next to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Cutlery Set" Seriously, if its on a scroll buy it and write in your book, then copy it out of the book onto a Scroll and have a scroll case that was single-handedly responsible for the Deforestation of the Great Desert... Most people seem to forget about Downtime and Scribe Scroll... Wizards should NEVER run out of spells, if you run out then the next time you go to town... BUY LOTS MORE PAPER YOU TWIT!!!!
Cleric = I am the impenetrable walking fortresss of smackdown. Spells + Heavy Armour... even just using the Core Books... seriously well-done Clerics are HARDCORE. This is before you include the overpowered cheese that allow you to burn turning attempts to power metamagic feats... (Which peanut brained crack smoking chimpanzee thought that was a balanced mechanic????)
My personal choice: Wizard. But then I have played Wizards and Rogues for almost every single one of my characters... the party got the poos with my Saintly Paladin and another time my Cleric basically died when the rest of the party was nerfed at the same time (but there was comedy GOLD leading up to that point, including the Cleric impersonating the god of Kuotoans)
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Ah my apologies, I missed your post. My comments about dip-entry to Loremaster still stand; it's maybe not the most optimized build ever, but certainly entirely playable and will get him in without much muss and fuss.
As to Core-only PrCs... well, he didn't actually say "Core", he said "SRD". And in SRD there's
Battle Sorcerer 6 / Fighter 1 /
Eldritch Knight X, which is again maybe not the most optimized, but very easy to play, will give him good hands-on experience with arcane magic, and should be at least reasonable even if he messes up spell selection. Battle Sorc will improve his gish-ness and let him actually wear armor (a weakness in Eldritch Knight as-printed), and he'll still hit 9th level spells eventually.
Only... he actually wants to be useful at casting...
Seriously, battle sorcerer sucks. Less spells known = fail. Particularly as he will be the Primary Arcane Caster in the party, he is going to need MORE flexibility, not LESS. Just grab Mirror Image to make yourself practically immune to Melee, and start flinging spells. Never in your career should you ever consider getting into melee reach with ANYTHING.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
For a first character, if someone wants to go arcane spellcaster... or any spellcaster, to be honest... I ALWAYS recommend Sorcerer. I also suggest they ask the DM if he'll be a little lenient in allowing switching of spells known, at least at first, as the new player grows into his character.
I find the easiest way to go is with a human sorcerer, picking up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There's a lot of nice rays, and these two feats combine to A) Add accuracy and B) Reduce problems involving party members in combat with your target. For nice usable rays, look at Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray, just from first and second level spells respectively. Point Blank Shot will also add a comparably significant amount of damage to Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, if you're starting at 1st level, 1d3+1 is proportionately nicer than just 1d3.
Try and keep a decent fort, reflex, and will save around - Grease is a nice reflex save, as is Web, though Web is higher level. Glitterdust, as mentioned, is nice for Will. And Scorching Ray will make for nice damage, if you need to do it, once you hit level 4. At either third or sixth level, I'd pick up Heighten Spell, so you can keep your save-or-sucks known to a minimum, casting Glitterdust as a 4th level spell instead of having to know it AND a 4th level Will is very helpful.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vael
Well... actually you can, to an extent.
And etc. etc, you get the gist.
Also, I support Sorcerer over Wizard. Wizards are way annoying to keep track of- you have to figure out what spells to prepare every day, you have to figure out how to get new spells (because even being AS good as a sorcerer requires you to find spell scrolls/spell books/ways to learn spells and invest in them). For a new player less used to regulating their power, a Wizard is more difficult since they have significantly less spells per day, as well.
Wizards require tons of managing, and in the end I disagree with Ericgrau- they're just as difficult to make as a Sorcerer is, because they're based on all the same mechanics. If you know how to make a Wizard, you can make a Sorcerer. If you don't know how to make either, you might as well go for a Sorcerer because it is less confusing, and spells are the emphasis (and if you don't know the spells and how to use them properly, you'll be just as ineffective- if not more- with a wizard, who has less power per day to throw around).
Technically sorcerers can change a couple spells, but not many. I was well aware of that. You still have to pick carefully. Initially both a sorcerer and wizard are equally difficult, but if you screw up a wizard you can change your mind later. I'm just saying if he goes sorcerer to be careful and spend a good deal of time on spell selection. And planning for that matter; because ideally you want the good spells in your high level slots and out-of-combat buffs in lower level ones... which used to be your high level slots. That consumes a lot of your spell swapping right there. The wizard is more work later, but as for difficulty in making a character the sorc can give trouble to new players that don't spend enough time beforehand.
DragoonWraith: If you want more help with the your spell list, feel free to ask. Maybe pick spells according to your own personal preference and post it so we can weed out problems. A sorcerer whom you knew for sure had a good spell array from the get-go would give the best of both worlds in terms of ease of play. Or just do it by yourself and be real careful, read the spell descriptions carefully, think of how they'd be used, etc.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
Using Core books only:
Sorcerer (Cannon) = Cannon + Heartbeat. You walk around and blast things from a long way away... (you could be the dude who could create an entire illusionary world around other beings 24/7 if you want...)
Cannon? Heartbeat? Sounds interesting, but I don't know what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) = Everybody gets neutered. Hold Person, Enfeeblement, Grease... if it is an enchantment/necromancy and likely to make someone else's life harder... that's your kind of spell.
That sounds more like what I'll be aiming for. I figure the two Fighters + Rogue can handle damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
Wizard (ALL KINDS) = "I believe I have Rary's Rather Large Rat Repellant Emanating Fog of Lavender in my scrollcase here somewhere... oh there it is right next to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Cutlery Set" Seriously, if its on a scroll buy it and write in your book, then copy it out of the book onto a Scroll and have a scroll case that was single-handedly responsible for the Deforestation of the Great Desert... Most people seem to forget about Downtime and Scribe Scroll... Wizards should NEVER run out of spells, if you run out then the next time you go to town... BUY LOTS MORE PAPER YOU TWIT!!!!
That's a great idea. Thanks, I never would have thought of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
Cleric = I am the impenetrable walking fortresss of smackdown. Spells + Heavy Armour... even just using the Core Books... seriously well-done Clerics are HARDCORE. This is before you include the overpowered cheese that allow you to burn turning attempts to power metamagic feats... (Which peanut brained crack smoking chimpanzee thought that was a balanced mechanic????)
Personal buffs are less interesting to me. *shrug* But how does one accomplish that cheese, anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
My personal choice: Wizard. But then I have played Wizards and Rogues for almost every single one of my characters... the party got the poos with my Saintly Paladin and another time my Cleric basically died when the rest of the party was nerfed at the same time (but there was comedy GOLD leading up to that point, including the Cleric impersonating the god of Kuotoans)
That sounds amusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quietus
For a first character, if someone wants to go arcane spellcaster... or any spellcaster, to be honest... I ALWAYS recommend Sorcerer. I also suggest they ask the DM if he'll be a little lenient in allowing switching of spells known, at least at first, as the new player grows into his character.
Yeah, I definitely will be asking Ernir for a little leniency there, if I go that route. That, or get a very good idea of what I'm looking for here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quietus
I find the easiest way to go is with a human sorcerer, picking up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There's a lot of nice rays, and these two feats combine to A) Add accuracy and B) Reduce problems involving party members in combat with your target. For nice usable rays, look at Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray, just from first and second level spells respectively. Point Blank Shot will also add a comparably significant amount of damage to Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, if you're starting at 1st level, 1d3+1 is proportionately nicer than just 1d3.
Rays sound cool, but TLN suggested that damage is a waste of time - for Wizards. Is it different for Sorcerers, or do you simply disagree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quietus
Try and keep a decent fort, reflex, and will save around - Grease is a nice reflex save, as is Web, though Web is higher level. Glitterdust, as mentioned, is nice for Will. And Scorching Ray will make for nice damage, if you need to do it, once you hit level 4. At either third or sixth level, I'd pick up Heighten Spell, so you can keep your save-or-sucks known to a minimum, casting Glitterdust as a 4th level spell instead of having to know it AND a 4th level Will is very helpful.
Heightened Spell seems amazing for the Sorcerer. Will keep that in mind.
Metamagic on a Sorcerer seems a little weaker, though, because of the extra time thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericgrau
Technically sorcerers can change a couple spells, but not many. I was well aware of that. You still have to pick carefully. Initially both a sorcerer and wizard are equally difficult, but if you screw up a wizard you can change your mind later. I'm just saying if he goes sorcerer to be careful and spend a good deal of time on spell selection. And planning for that matter; because ideally you want the good spells in your high level slots and out-of-combat buffs in lower level ones... which used to be your high level slots. That consumes a lot of your spell swapping right there. The wizard is more work later, but as for difficulty in making a character the sorc can give trouble to new players that don't spend enough time beforehand.
DragoonWraith: If you want more help with the your spell list, feel free to ask. Maybe pick spells according to your own personal preference and post it so we can weed out problems. A sorcerer whom you knew for sure had a good spell array from the get-go would give the best of both worlds in terms of ease of play. Or just do it by yourself and be real careful, read the spell descriptions carefully, think of how they'd be used, etc.
Thanks, I will definitely do that.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
A sorcerer can be quite a good blaster. Generally, its not considered effective for Wizards to blast because its more effective for them to leave all the enemies naked, hogtied and upsidedown for the fighter to coup-de grace.
A sorcerer has the spell slots to blast, if he wants to. Generally, this is even the sorcerer's archetypical role in combat: "casts the spells that makes the mans fall down."
There's a variant sorcerer that gets better metamagic, but again, not in core. I personally don't take much metamagic as a sorcerer, no.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Its good for a Sorcerer to have a little bit of damage, and for damage, you really can't go wrong with Scorching Ray. Its low level, but scales better than a lot of other damage spells (caps at 12d6). It also responds well to being Empowered, and I highly suggest you pick up Empower spell because there are plenty of other spells that respond well to Empower as well (mostly necromancy spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation).
If you don't want to take any blasty spells, consider dropping 2 feats on Draconic Heritage (Copper or Black depending on alignment) + Draconic Breath. This allows you to convert spell slots into 60' streams of acid that deal 2d6 damage per level of the spell slot, with a reflex DC based on the level of the spell slot. This also allows you to pick up some utility and debuff metabreath spells like Blinding Breath or Dispelling Breath from the Spell Compendium to get more bang for your breath. This allows you to blast AND disable with the same action, and it scales with level. Plus, reflex saves tend to go down relatively as you gain levels, due to dex penalties associated with larger sizes. Definitely a versitile tactic.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
My personal recommendation? Sorcerer. With the wizard's "save or fail" and "save or die" spells, what many people forget is that the monsters that you really want to put down usually have a good enough save to ignore it. Against a bunch of orcs etc, they do great. Against the inevitable big ol' dragon? not so much. A sorc would also prolly be really good for your party, because from what I can tell, you probably don't have a member with a high Charisma, aka a liar/diplomacy bitch. If you do end up with access to Complete Mage and Reserve feats, take Heighten Spell. Why, you ask? Because, a scorching ray could theoretically be heightened to however high you want, and still be "prepared" because a sorc doesn't have to choose his spells in the morning, which allows you to get more bang for your feats with level-based variables in Reserve feats.
If you want the loremaster setup though, definitely choose wizard. Sorcerers (at least mine) almost never have a great int, and so, whats the point in having a character based on intelligence based skills?
Summary of my ramblings: Sorcerer = versatile blaster; Wizard = party casting bitch that can pull up almost anything; Both = dead in melee combat.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Go sorcerer. Many people will tell you that wizard is better, but if this is your first character ever, it's better to got the path of sorcery (more spells per day and you have less variety in spells to worry about casting). Now, you mentioned thinking of going Mystic Theurge. My advise, take some levels of cleric and do it. Think about it: as a cleric, you can use strategy to plan ahead, and as a sorcerer, you can just rely on spontaneous spells to get you out of dire situations you didn't plan for.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
On scrolls, metamagic and sorcerers:
Utility scrolls are a good idea for sorcerers to carry too. Just buy them instead of scribing them. Get a wide variety; since they're low level and you use them so rarely, they'll be cheap. You'll be ready for every weird little thing, so it's well worth it to get them as soon as you're high enough level to afford them for hardly any coin.
Metamagic is actually a very good idea for sorcerers, probably a major advantage of taking the class for all but quicken. Spending a full round action instead of a standard to cast a spell usually isn't a big deal, and the added versatility of being able to apply metamagic on the fly is nice. Heighten is a major one that benefits a sorc much more than a wizard, as mentioned. But, others like extend are helpful too. Blasty metamagic like empower and maximize are equally good for both wizard and sorcs, since wizards can usually tell ahead of time which spells they want to apply it to. Still good for sorcs though. Note that they also applies to other variable numeric spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericgrau
On scrolls, metamagic and sorcerers:
Utility scrolls are a good idea for sorcerers to carry too. Just buy them instead of scribing them. Get a wide variety; since they're low level and you use them so rarely, they'll be cheap. You'll be ready for every weird little thing, so it's well worth it to get them as soon as you're high enough level to afford them for hardly any coin.
Metamagic is actually a very good idea for sorcerers, probably a major advantage of taking the class for all but quicken. Spending a full round action instead of a standard to cast a spell usually isn't a big deal, and the added versatility of being able to apply metamagic on the fly is nice. Heighten is a major one that benefits a sorc much more than a wizard, as mentioned. But, others like extend are helpful too. Blasty metamagic like empower and maximize are equally good for both wizard and sorcs, since wizards can usually tell ahead of time which spells they want to apply it to. Still good for sorcs though. Note that they also applies to other variable numeric spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement.
Huh, weird. The full-round thing has always been a massive disadvantage for me.
Ah well, diff'rent strokes.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
You still get your 5' step. And its a full round action, not a full round (like summoning), so it still happens on your turn. Really, if you have to move, move and don't use metamagic. But, if you don't have to move, why not slap a little Empower on that Ray of Enfeeblement? You know you want to!
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
Rays sound cool, but TLN suggested that damage is a waste of time - for Wizards. Is it different for Sorcerers, or do you simply disagree?
I find that having SOME damage capability is good, just don't rely on it. There will be times when you'll be happy to have one or two damage spells, in addition to save-based spells. That being said, there's lots of other great rays, such as Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+1/2 caster level str penalty for 1min/level), or Enervation (1d4 negative levels), where landing them can make a huge pain in the ass for your target. Point Blank Shot is nice for this, but the main reason I recommend PBS is to get Precise Shot. Precise Shot makes it so you don't take a -4 penalty for something being in melee, which IS a big deal.
Quote:
Heightened Spell seems amazing for the Sorcerer. Will keep that in mind.
Metamagic on a Sorcerer seems a little weaker, though, because of the extra time thing.
It's annoying, sure, but it won't break you. Sometimes you'll not have any use for your move action, and sometimes you'll need it - but it's nice to have metamagic options for those times you aren't going to be moving around. You don't really need to run from that horde of Orc Barbarians, when you have a couple friendly meat shields, so you won't use that Move action most likely. Why not crank up the save of your Glitterdust spell to counter their Rage bonus to Will with that spare time?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quietus
I find that having SOME damage capability is good, just don't rely on it. There will be times when you'll be happy to have one or two damage spells, in addition to save-based spells. That being said, there's lots of other great rays, such as Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+1/2 caster level str penalty for 1min/level), or Enervation (1d4 negative levels), where landing them can make a huge pain in the ass for your target. Point Blank Shot is nice for this, but the main reason I recommend PBS is to get Precise Shot. Precise Shot makes it so you don't take a -4 penalty for something being in melee, which IS a big deal.
I wouldn't bother with these feats. At low levels you don't have the feats to spare to dump 2 feats into boosting your ranged touch attacks, and at high levels touch attacks are easy enough to land that you'll consistently be hitting.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Suedars
I wouldn't bother with these feats. At low levels you don't have the feats to spare to dump 2 feats into boosting your ranged touch attacks, and at high levels touch attacks are easy enough to land that you'll consistently be hitting.
What else would you suggest a Human Sorcerer get for feats, then?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Curious as to the answer to that, myself.
By the way, started looking at the Spell list... I think if I were to be a level 3 Sorcerer, my spell list would be this:
- 5 level-0 spells:
- Resistance
- Message
- Read Magic
- Detect Magic
- Prestidigitation
- 3 level-1 spells:
- Mage Armor
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Sleep
Thoughts?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
Curious as to the answer to that, myself.
By the way, started looking at the Spell list... I think if I were to be a level 3 Sorcerer, my spell list would be this:
- 5 level-0 spells:
- Resistance
- Message
- Read Magic
- Detect Magic
- Prestidigitation
- 3 level-1 spells:
- Mage Armor
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Sleep
Thoughts?
Sleep is great at low level and becomes useless fast - a prime candidate for trading-out. You might want to consider "Ray of Clumsiness" instead of Enfeeblement, as it's exactly the same thing but for Dex (and hence debuffs AC and Ref Saves, and save-reducers rock). Grease is a classic at 1st level, too.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Um, starting at level 3, Sleep is already starting to become lackluster. I'd go with Grease instead. Its not a game winning, but its still really really really good and continues to be good for the rest of your life (this spell single handedly disables most golems completely!).
Other than that, looks good!
Glitterdust should be your first spell next level. Its hands down probably the best 2nd level spell for a primary caster ever written.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
You might want to consider "Ray of Clumsiness" instead of Enfeeblement, as it's exactly the same thing but for Dex (and hence debuffs AC and Ref Saves, and save-reducers rock).
Not in the SRD. Otherwise, yes, I would. What school does that fall under, by the way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Other than that, looks good!
Glitterdust should be your first spell next level. Its hands down probably the best 2nd level spell for a primary caster ever written.
Thanks! Yeah, that's been mentioned several times, and I have every intention of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sonofzeal
Sleep is great at low level and becomes useless fast - a prime candidate for trading-out. [...] Grease is a classic at 1st level, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Um, starting at level 3, Sleep is already starting to become lackluster. I'd go with Grease instead. Its not a game winning, but its still really really really good and continues to be good for the rest of your life (this spell single handedly disables most golems completely!).
Ah! I was right the first time. Switched Grease for Sleep at the last minute.
So my two questions, I guess, are "do I want to do summoning?" (seems like it might be a lot for me to keep track of, all the different summons with all their different abilities...), and "is getting involved in Crafting a good idea?"
And thoughts on a final spell selection (level learned) [School]:
- level-0
- Resistance (1) [Abjur]
- Detect Magic (1) [Div]
- Read Magic (1) [Div]
- Message (1) [Trans]
- Prestidigitation (2) [Univ]
- Ghost Sound (4) [Illus]
- Mage Hand (6) [Trans]
- Dancing Lights (8) [Evoc]
- Arcane Mark (10) [Univ]
- level-1
- Ray of Enfeeblement (1) [Necro]
- Mage Armor (1) [Conj]
- Grease (3) [Conj]
- Magic Weapon (5) [Trans]
- Identify (7) [Div] -> Comprehend Languages (16) [Div]
- level-2
- Glitterdust (4) [Conj]
- Eagle's Splendor (5) [Trans]
- Mirror Image (7) [Illus] -> See Invisibility (10) [Div]
- Rope Trick (9) [Trans]
- level-3
- Ray of Exhaustion (6) [Necro]
- Major Image (7) [Illus]
- Fly (9) [Trans] -> Haste (14) [Trans]
- Arcane Sight (11) [Div] -> Tongues (18) [Div]
- level-4
- Enervation (8) [Necro]
- Greater Invisibility (9) [Illus]
- Dimension Door (11) [Conj]
- Dimensional Anchor (13) [Abjur]
- level-5
- Shadow Evocation (10) [Illus]
- Persistent Image (11) [Illus]
- Overland Flight (13) [Trans]
- Mirage Arcana (15) [Illus]
- level-6
- Anti-Magic Field (12) [Abjur]
- Veil (13) [Illus]
- Geas (15) [Ench]
- level-7
- Greater Shadow Conjuration (12) [Illus]
- Ethereal Jaunt (13) [Trans]
- Greater Arcane Sight (15) [Div]
- level-8
- Greater Shadow Evocation (16) [Illus]
- Irresistable Dance (17) [Ench]
- Mind Blank (19) [Abjur]
- level-9
- Shades (18) [Illus]
- Time Stop (19) [Trans]
- Dominate Monster (20) [Ench]
Thoughts?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
That is actually kinda funny. While Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy, Ray of Clumisiness is Transmutation. I mean, other than that, they are the exact same spell if you hit Ctr + F and find/replace Str with Dex.
Personally, I like Ray of Enfeeblement better. Dropping a foes str drastically lowers damage output, while dropping their dex only slightly affects AC and reflex saves. Ray of Cluminess is useful for setting up 1-2 punches with strong reflex based spells, but for general use, I'd rather RoE.
Plus, depending on the tactics of whatever you are fighting, if you drop your foes Str down to 12 or less, they can't use Power Attack (requires 13+ str) or any PA related feats or class features. Thats awesome. Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement will pretty much neuter any humanoid str based melee character on a decent roll. Its a good thing!
EDIT:
Magic Weapon at the level you get it is kinda...meh. I wouldn't get it.
Eagles Splendor, by the time you get it, is also rather lack luster. You should have a +2 cha item by then, at which point its only giving you a +1 DC. Keep in mind that you don't get extra spell slots from temporary increases in cha.
You should get Haste right at 6th. Its soooooo strong at that point. Seriously. Then get Fly at 7th and then maybe Ray of Exhaustion at 9. That would be my suggestion.
Enervation is decent as your first pick at level 8, but I'd probably take Solid Fog instead. SF is a no-save, no-sr nearly uncounterable time out for 2 rounds spell. It will probably be the first spell you cast every combat that you fight more than a single foe, since it effectively removes 1-2 combatants from the game, giving you 2 rounds to mop up their friends before turning your busy blades on the clueless baddies emerging from it. As a Sorcerer, you can literally SPAM it because its that good.
While I like Dim Door, if you aren't taking it until 11th level, swap it for the 5th level Teleport instead. TP is everything Dim Door is and more. That frees up another 4th level slot to take Evards Black Tenticles. That spell ends fights against anything medium sized or smaller. If you have a cleric or bard on your team that can drop a silence on the area in tandem with your EBT, thats pretty much good game over.
Other than that, looks ok.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crel
If you want the loremaster setup though, definitely choose wizard. Sorcerers (at least mine) almost never have a great int, and so, whats the point in having a character based on intelligence based skills?
Summary of my ramblings: Sorcerer = versatile blaster; Wizard = party casting bitch that can pull up almost anything; Both = dead in melee combat.
What? My Wu Jen survived melee, but then he wore a +1 Twlight Mithral Chain Shirt (5000 gp) and +1 Mithral Buckler (2000 gp).
Surviving melee combat: Priceless.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
That is actually kinda funny. While Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy, Ray of Clumisiness is Transmutation. I mean, other than that, they are the exact same spell if you hit Ctr + F and find/replace Str with Dex.
Personally, I like Ray of Enfeeblement better. Dropping a foes str drastically lowers damage output, while dropping their dex only slightly affects AC and reflex saves. Ray of Cluminess is useful for setting up 1-2 punches with strong reflex based spells, but for general use, I'd rather RoE.
Plus, depending on the tactics of whatever you are fighting, if you drop your foes Str down to 12 or less, they can't use Power Attack (requires 13+ str) or any PA related feats or class features. Thats awesome. Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement will pretty much neuter any humanoid str based melee character on a decent roll. Its a good thing!
Sounds awesome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Magic Weapon at the level you get it is kinda...meh. I wouldn't get it.
Eagles Splendor, by the time you get it, is also rather lack luster. You should have a +2 cha item by then, at which point its only giving you a +1 DC. Keep in mind that you don't get extra spell slots from temporary increases in cha.
You should get Haste right at 6th. Its soooooo strong at that point. Seriously. Then get Fly at 7th and then maybe Ray of Exhaustion at 9. That would be my suggestion.
Enervation is decent as your first pick at level 8, but I'd probably take Solid Fog instead. SF is a no-save, no-sr nearly uncounterable time out for 2 rounds spell. It will probably be the first spell you cast every combat that you fight more than a single foe, since it effectively removes 1-2 combatants from the game, giving you 2 rounds to mop up their friends before turning your busy blades on the clueless baddies emerging from it. As a Sorcerer, you can literally SPAM it because its that good.
While I like Dim Door, if you aren't taking it until 11th level, swap it for the 5th level Teleport instead. TP is everything Dim Door is and more. That frees up another 4th level slot to take Evards Black Tenticles. That spell ends fights against anything medium sized or smaller. If you have a cleric or bard on your team that can drop a silence on the area in tandem with your EBT, thats pretty much good game over.
Other than that, looks ok.
OK, then revised list: Charm Person instead of Magic Weapon, Mirror Image instead of Eagle's Splendor and taking See Invisibility at 9, reworks of 3rd and 4th level spells, Teleport instead of Persistent Image.
- level-0
- Resistance (1) [Abjur]
- Detect Magic (1) [Div]
- Read Magic (1) [Div]
- Message (1) [Trans]
- Prestidigitation (2) [Univ]
- Ghost Sound (4) [Illus]
- Mage Hand (6) [Trans]
- Dancing Lights (8) [Evoc]
- Arcane Mark (10) [Univ]
- level-1
- Ray of Enfeeblement (1) [Necro]
- Mage Armor (1) [Conj]
- Grease (3) [Conj]
- Charm Person (5) [Ench]
- Identify (7) [Div] -> Comprehend Languages (16) [Div]
- level-2
- Glitterdust (4) [Conj]
- Mirror Image (5) [Illus]
- See Invisibility (7) [Div]
- Rope Trick (9) [Trans]
- level-3
- Haste (6) [Trans]
- Fly (7) [Trans]
- Major Image (9) [Illus]
- Arcane Sight (11) [Div] -> Tongues (18) [Div]
- level-4
- Solid Fog (8) [Conj]
- Enervation (9) [Necro]
- Greater Invisibility (11) [Illus]
- Black Tentacles (13) [Conj]
- level-5
- Shadow Evocation (10) [Illus]
- Teleport (11) [Conj]
- Overland Flight (13) [Trans]
- Mirage Arcana (15) [Illus]
- level-6
- Anti-Magic Field (12) [Abjur]
- Veil (13) [Illus]
- Geas (15) [Ench]
- level-7
- Greater Shadow Conjuration (12) [Illus]
- Ethereal Jaunt (13) [Trans]
- Greater Arcane Sight (15) [Div]
- level-8
- Greater Shadow Evocation (16) [Illus]
- Irresistable Dance (17) [Ench]
- Mind Blank (19) [Abjur]
- level-9
- Shades (18) [Illus]
- Time Stop (19) [Trans]
- Dominate Monster (20) [Ench]
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Sorry, I wrote what's below after reading your first list, so some things may have changed. The tips between the lists are good and I'd agree.
Magic weapon only gives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. You can already get +1 AB from getting masterwork weapons. The spell is pretty much for breaking DR, that's it. Too situational, put on a scroll if anything. Identify should also be on scrolls; you're already paying 100gp, might as well pay another 25 and it's situational anyway. You don't necessarily need it during an adventure, maybe just pay an NPC after. Eagle's splendor should be replaced by a cloak of charisma at later levels. If you want to cast it outside of combat early on that's fine (+X buffs are too weak to use in combat), but I'd swap it out at later levels. See invisibility is likewise situational; unless you fight invisible foes on a daily basis I'd buy it on a scroll or scrolls. Comprehend languages, tongues and dimensional anchor are likewise situational, and belong on scrolls. Dimensional anchor is 4th level, which is a bit expensive for a scroll, so that one's up to you.
I'd avoid getting too many spells that do the same thing, if possible. Sometimes they're different enough that you just have to have both, but you'll be more versatile if you can just get one of each. I also wouldn't count on shadow evocation and conjuration to replace all or even most of the evocation and conjuration spells. Just the misc ones, perhaps (and I'd keep a list so you can remember them). There are a lot of good ones where you'll want the real thing. My favorites are the walls (especially stone & force) and solid fog to divide the enemy, plus a nice source of metamagicked out backup damage, but I don't want to sway your focus if you're shooting for something else.
You don't seem to have many high level combat spells, unless you want illusions to be your focus. Which is awesome, just make sure you have a plan for your illusions. And consider the [greater] spell focus (illusion) feat[s] if you go this route. Otherwise I generally consider spells numbered 1-3 on my previous list to be good "combat spells". You already have some at lower levels, like grease, glitterdust and haste.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericgrau
Sorry, I wrote what's below after reading your first list, so some things may have changed. The tips between the lists are good and I'd agree.
It's cool, it's really good advice, I think. I was thinking too much like a Wizard, I think. Still tempted to go back to Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage, actually - I like the versatility of knowing lots and lots of spells. Might make crafting worthwhile, too (I decided against crafting as the Sorcerer because most cool things require little spells like Eagle's Splendor that I don't want to get otherwise). But I think for my first game versatility is only going to make things difficult, and make me spend more time on this than I can afford at the moment (though I think I'd enjoy it). Next time, perhaps.
Therefore, new list, though mostly the old one with suggested tweaks and some going over the spell list. Ditched a lot of Divination spells that I'd taken in a half-assed attempt to qualify for Loremaster - just not going to happen, sadly. The lack of PrCs for Core Sorcerers is disconcerting, seeing as they get almost nothing from base class levels (everything I've read suggests that Familiars are usually useless, and making them not-useless usually requires not-Core material).
Also, new format - what I'll grab each level. If anyone would prefer the old format, I can get it pretty easily - I have my spells in an Excel document that self-updates. It's very convenient.
- (Sor 1)
- 0 Resistance [Abjur]
- 0 Detect Magic [Div]
- 0 Read Magic [Div]
- 0 Prestidigitation [Trans]
- 1 Ray of Enfeeblement [Necro]
- 1 Mage Armor [Conj]
- (Sor 2)
- (Sor 3)
- (Sor 4)
- 0 Ghost Sound [Illus]
- 2 Glitterdust [Conj]
- (Sor 5)
- 1 Charm Person [Ench]
- 2 Mirror Image [Illus]
- (Sor 6)
- 0 Mage Hand [Trans]
- 3 Haste [Trans]
- (Sor 7)
- 1 Protection from Law [Abjur]
- 2 Scorching Ray [Evoc]
- 3 Fly [Trans]
- (Sor 8)
- 0 Dancing Lights [Evoc]
- 4 Solid Fog [Conj]
- (Sor 9)
- 2 Rope Trick [Trans]
- 3 Wind Wall [Evoc]
- 4 Enervation [Necro]
- (Sor 10)
- 0 Arcane Mark [Univ]
- 5 Shadow Evocation [Illus]
- (Sor 11)
- 3 Magic Circle against Law [Abjur]
- 4 Greater Invisibility [Illus]
- 5 Teleport [Trans]
- (Sor 12)
- 6 Anti-Magic Field [Abjur]
- Forget Protection from Law [Abjur], learn Alarm [Abjur]
- (Sor 13)
- 4 Black Tentacles [Conj]
- 5 Magic Jar [Necro]
- 6 Acid Fog [Conj]
- (Sor 14)
- 7 Greater Shadow Conjuration [Illus]
- Forget Solid Fog [Conj], learn Wall of Force [Evoc]
- (Sor 14 / Arch 1)
- 5 Mirage Arcana [Illus]
- 6 Veil [Illus]
- 7 Reverse Gravity [Trans]
- (Sor 14 / Arch 2)
- 8 Greater Shadow Evocation [Illus]
- (Sor 14 / Arch 3)
- 7 Project Image [Illus]
- 8 Scintillating Pattern [Illus]
- (Sor 14 / Arch 4)
- (Sor 14 / Arch 5)
- 8 Mind Blank [Abjur]
- 9 Time Stop [Trans]
- (Sor 15 / Arch 5)
- 9 Dominate Monster [Ench]
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Seems good for the most part. Wind wall, protection from law and magic circle against law seem a bit too situational, unless there's something about your campaign I don't know about. I went back over your list a second time to make sure you'd have combat spells on all levels (so you wouldn't be groaning until you leveled up a couple times), and it mostly checked out good. Levels 5 & 6 are missing combat spells, but you have plenty from levels 1-4 to carry you until you get level 7 spells. I think a sorcerer I played didn't have any of those kinds of spells on levels 5 & 6 either, except for a level 4 spell I put in level 5 b/c I ran out of level 4 slots and really wanted it. Maybe there just isn't much available. You don't seem to have many long-lasting buffs at lower level, which may leave you with more spells per day than you can use at mid to high levels. Some examples are energy resistance, protection from energy, greater magic weapon, heroism and stoneskin if you can find the space for them. Preferably you'd swap them in later, rather than making them your highest level spells at any point. Other between battle spells like detect thoughts to scout through wooden doors could work too. Again these are only for extra spell slots that you wouldn't have time to use otherwise; they're weaker than other spells. Or even if you leave the list as-is, I think it's good to go. Have fun.
While getting into loremaster is a royal pain, you can shoot for archmage fairly easily. Of the 3 feats required there's only 1 feat you wouldn't want to get anyway (skill focus - spellcraft), and even that can be semi-useful. And at level 14 you'll have at least 5 feats. The skills are probably skills you'll be maxing out anyway, though you may want a 12 int so you can get a good concentration check too. I'd probably put the spell focuses into illusion and conjuration, given your spell list and b/c a lot of those spells have saves. For your other two feats heighten spell and greater spell focus are possible options, or another metamagic.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
I'm Human, so I get the extra Feat. Currently I'm planning on Improved Initiative (Human Bonus Feat), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (1st), Heighten Spell (3rd), Empower Spell (6th), Spell Focus: Illusion (9th), Spell Focus: Conjuration? (12th), Improved Counterspelling (15th), Reactive Counterspelling (18th) (if DM allows it; won't get Improved Counterspelling if not). Assuming I understand the Feat-gaining rules correctly (which I may not; it's not on the SRD as far as I can tell, so I'm almost guessing that it's 1 per 3 levels).
But lots of saves? I was trying to determine what my second Spell Focus should be, and I was having a lot of trouble. Grease and Glitterdust have saves (Reflex and Will, respectively), but as far as I can tell those are my only Conjuration spells that do. Solid/Acid Fog don't, Black Tentacles don't, and Mage Armor is cast on myself.
I was actually considering going with Enchantment for the second one. After getting Acid Fog I'd switch Solid Fog to Charm Monster, which would give me Charm Person, Charm Monster, and Dominate Monster. Also considering replacing Anti-Magic Field with Mass Suggestion - just not sure I see the point in an AMF that's centered on me. At any rate, those are all Will saves, and spells that do best against stronger (i.e. likely higher save stats) opponents than weaker ones.
The only other spell with a save that I have (other than Illusions) is Reverse Gravity [Trans] (Reflex). I don't have any Fortitude-save spells, though I have plenty of no-save spells that should handle that (yes?).
Unless... If I Shadow Evoke or Shadow Conjure, does the simulated spell's saving throw get affected by Spell Focus: Evocation or Conjuration, or is it still Illusion?
As for Protection from / Magic Circle against Law, we're a band of evil and/or chaotic individuals (two NE, two CN, one CE) in a Lawful Evil town. I figure we're very likely to come into conflict with the government, and those protection spells will be useful for that. The only fight the group has had thus far has been with a Paladin. Plus, they grant immunity to possession or compulsion by anything, at least as I read it. If we end up moving away from the town, I'll swap them, though.
Wind Wall, well, I'd just heard it was really good. Complete protection from arrows (and gases; not sure how common that's going to be) seems pretty good, even if it is "only" arrows. Still... yeah, looking again, Dispel Magic, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon... lots of probably better choices.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
I cannot recommend Evard's Hentai Black Tentacles enough. Very good spell and ironically the best place to cast it I have found is BEHIND the front-line combat monkeys of your enemies. That way you hit all of the ranged attackers and spellcasters who can't grapple for cheese.
The build for your Sorcerer generally looks pretty good.
To explain the Sorcerer (Cannon) and the Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) further.
Sorcerer (Cannon) takes a lot of direct damaging spells (Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Fireball, etc) and just pommels the crap out of anything within range that is still walking. Upside = room full of goblins just became room full of charcoal. Downside = Rogues/Assassins/Stuff with Reflex saves... they will dance all over your explosions and fillet out your kidneys.
Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) takes a lot of crippling spells (Grease, Glitterdust, Hold Person/Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc) and ensures that as many of the enemies are busy barely able to walk in their armour while your guys take out their trusty "Slashy McNecksnapper" and go to town. Upside = big bad mean nasty enemy turns into bumbling moron in about 3 spells, you sit back and maybe ping a few arrows/sling bullets at him to add insult to injury. Downside = Clerics/Intelligent Undead... these things have saves that are worth it, immune to most of the stuff you're doing and then cast a pile of nasty stuff back at your party.
It's always a good plan to have a small pile of scrolls with spells you may need but:
a) won't need every encounter, and
b) probably won't need more than once between trips to town
Good call on taking the Sorcerer to start with. I started with 3.5 Wizards (after 2E Wizards... *sighs*...) but for newcomers, Sorcerers are the probably the best way into playing a "my job is to cast spells in the combat" type of character.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
I cannot recommend Evard's Hentai Black Tentacles enough. Very good spell and ironically the best place to cast it I have found is BEHIND the front-line combat monkeys of your enemies. That way you hit all of the ranged attackers and spellcasters who can't grapple for cheese.
Enough that I should try to get it earlier? It's currently my third 4th level spell, after Solid Fog and Enervation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
The build for your Sorcerer generally looks pretty good.
Thanks... I think I'm going to mess it up, though (see below).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
To explain the Sorcerer (Cannon) and the Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) further.
Sorcerer (Cannon) takes a lot of direct damaging spells (Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Fireball, etc) and just pommels the crap out of anything within range that is still walking. Upside = room full of goblins just became room full of charcoal. Downside = Rogues/Assassins/Stuff with Reflex saves... they will dance all over your explosions and fillet out your kidneys.
Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) takes a lot of crippling spells (Grease, Glitterdust, Hold Person/Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc) and ensures that as many of the enemies are busy barely able to walk in their armour while your guys take out their trusty "Slashy McNecksnapper" and go to town. Upside = big bad mean nasty enemy turns into bumbling moron in about 3 spells, you sit back and maybe ping a few arrows/sling bullets at him to add insult to injury. Downside = Clerics/Intelligent Undead... these things have saves that are worth it, immune to most of the stuff you're doing and then cast a pile of nasty stuff back at your party.
Heh, Squirrel-Puncher is definitely much more my style, methinks. Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
It's always a good plan to have a small pile of scrolls with spells you may need but:
a) won't need every encounter, and
b) probably won't need more than once between trips to town
Will have to remember that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juggernaut1981
Good call on taking the Sorcerer to start with. I started with 3.5 Wizards (after 2E Wizards... *sighs*...) but for newcomers, Sorcerers are the probably the best way into playing a "my job is to cast spells in the combat" type of character.
Heh. Unfortunately, I think my preference would be for Wizard with the "my job is to cast spells, all spells"; I just don't want to deal with preparation or the relatively few spells/day of the Wizard my first time through.
Also, I like Prestige Classes. This... is going to cost me.
As I said, I think I'm probably going to mess up my pretty solid Sorcerer to do something a little different - namely, to get Prestige Classes some time before 15. Prestige Classes are simply more interesting to me...
So my new tentative plan is Sor 4 / Paragon 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5 / Sor 1.
Cons: one lost caster level (groan), three less than ideal spells chosen (three Divinations are 0-level and I don't care, and Detect Thoughts is actually a spell I wanted anyway), one wasted feat
Pros: a lot of skills, two bonus feats, +2 Ability bonus, +3 Hit Points, +2 on 2 of Will/Fort/Ref saves, a Bonus Language (maybe useful, maybe), at-will Identify (whatever), Int-based special Gather Information (*shrug*)
It's basically something more interesting than Familiar improvement, fits character flavor somewhat better (though really I only came up with that flavor after thinking about this path), and interests me more.
I end up with just Detect Undead, True Strike, and Arcane Eyes as spells that I would have rathered replace with something else.
If my DM allows it, I may try to take another 0-level Divination (I have all of the Core ones, but there's one other I've found that's freely available on the Internet, namely Seeker's Chant) so I can get one of my higher level (probably 1st, but whatever) spells back. In the same vein, Lesser Telepathic Bond might be a better choice for 3rd level Divination than Arcane Eyes (thoughts?).
So, new list. Now includes Feats and other bonuses. Ability bonuses are purely guesses; I know Charisma is my most important stat followed by Constitution and Dexterity, but I don't know the relative value of these. Plus Loremaster makes Intelligence... well, worth considering, anyway.
Also, I'd be getting a Skill Focus in a Knowledge. Thoughts on which? I really have very little idea of how Knowledge comes up in game.
And the question of my second Spell Focus is still up in the air. I have Ench down here, mostly because after Illusion it seems like the only school with significant saves to buff. Matches character flavor well too.
My starting stats:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 16
- Level 1 (Sor 1)
- Improved Initiative (Human Bonus Feat)
- Extend Spell (1st)
Spells:
- 0 Resistance [Abjur]
- 0 Detect Magic [Div]
- 0 Ghost Sound [Illus]
- 0 Prestidigitation [Trans]
- 1 Charm Person [Ench]
- 1 True Strike [Div]
- Level 2 (Sor 2)
- Level 3 (Sor 3)
Spells:
- Level 4 (Sor 4)
Spells:
- 0 Read Magic [Div]
- 2 Glitterdust [Conj]
- Level 5 (Sor 4 / Para 1)
- Adaptive Learning: Diplomacy, perhaps, or maybe Use Magic Device
- Level 6 (Sor 4 / Para 2)
- Empower Spell (6th)
- Skill Focus: Knowledge: (I dunno, one of em) (Paragon Bonus Feat)
Spells:
- 1 Detect Undead [Div]
- 2 Detect Thoughts [Div]
- Level 7 (Sor 4 / Para 3)
- +2 Constitution (Paragon Bonus Ability)
Spells:
- 0 Mage Hand [Trans]
- 3 Arcane Sight [Div]
- Level 8 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 1)
- +1 Charisma (8th)
- Secret: Secret Health
Spells:
- 1 Mage Armor [Conj]
- 2 Ray of Enfeeblement [Necro]
- 3 Haste [Trans]
- Level 9 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 2)
- Skill Focus: Spellcraft (9th)
- Lore
Spells:
- 0 Message [Trans]
- 4 Solid Fog [Conj]
- Level 10 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 3)
- Secret: Secrets of Inner Strength
Spells:
- 2 Rope Trick [Trans]
- 3 Fly [Trans]
- 4 Enervation [Necro]
- Level 11 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 4)
- Bonus Language: something
Spells:
- 0 Arcane Mark [Univ]
- 5 Shadow Evocation [Illus]
- Level 12 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 5)
- +1 Charisma (12th)
- Spell Focus: Illusion
- Secret: Lore of True Stamina
Spells:
- 3 Dispel Magic [Abjur]
- 4 Black Tentacles [Conj]
- 5 Teleport [Trans]
- Level 13 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 6)
Spells:
- Level 14 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7)
- Spell Focus: Enchantment (Secret: Applicable Knowledge)
Spells:
- 4 Charm Monster [Ench]
- 5 Magic Jar [Necro]
- 6 Greater Heroism [Ench]
- Level 15 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 1)
- Improved Counterspelling (15th)
- High Arcana: Spell Power
Spells:
- 7 Greater Shadow Conjuration [Illus]
- Level 16 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 2)
- +1 Charisma (16th)
- High Arcana: Mastery of Elements
Spells:
- 5 Mirage Arcana [Illus]
- 6 Veil [Illus]
- 7 Reverse Gravity [Trans]
- Level 17 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 3)
- High Arcana: Mastery of Counterspelling
Spells:
- 8 Greater Shadow Evocation [Illus]
- Level 18 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 4)
- Reactive Counterspelling (18th)
- High Arcana: Spell-like Ability
Spells:
- 7 Project Image [Illus]
- 8 Scintillating Pattern [Illus]
- Level 19 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5)
- High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping
Spells:
- Level 20 (Sor 5 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5)
Spells:
- 8 Mind Blank [Abjur]
- 9 Time Stop [Trans]
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
If you take Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion to get into Loremaster, you can take 2 levels in Divine Oracle (CDivine)...but oh wait...thats not core. Crap. That would be perfect too, and would give you Evasion, which is always fun.
EBT might be better to take than Solid Fog. Solid Fog is GREAT, but EBT ends encounters SOOOOO fast against certain things. Really, if you are fighting mostly medium sized foes, EBT is probably better. If you are fighting a lot of 2-3 creature large+ foes, Solid Fog is definitely the winner.
Another funny thing. With Loremaster 4, you get a free language. There is NO restriction on what you can pick for this language. So....pick DRUIDIC! lol, then taunt those tree humping in their own language. Maybe their mother really WAS a hampster!
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Heh, I must say I'm pretty thrilled with the first response. I pretty much assumed people would be like "well, you can if you really want to..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
If you take Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion to get into Loremaster, you can take 2 levels in Divine Oracle (CDivine)...but oh wait...thats not core. Crap. That would be perfect too, and would give you Evasion, which is always fun.
Damn, that does sound good. Evasion (or the lack thereof) eliminated the Magelord option, which would have been excellent for the original incarnation of flavor-thoughts. Ohhh well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
EBT might be better to take than Solid Fog. Solid Fog is GREAT, but EBT ends encounters SOOOOO fast against certain things. Really, if you are fighting mostly medium sized foes, EBT is probably better. If you are fighting a lot of 2-3 creature large+ foes, Solid Fog is definitely the winner.
Will keep that in mind when I get that high.
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Originally Posted by
Keld Denar
Another funny thing. With Loremaster 4, you get a free language. There is NO restriction on what you can pick for this language. So....pick DRUIDIC! lol, then taunt those tree humping in their own language. Maybe their mother really WAS a hampster!
Win. My current Bonus Language is Undercommon, cuz there's a Drow in the party and I thought it'd be amusing. Adding Druidic would be perfect.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
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Originally Posted by
DragoonWraith
Damn, that does sound good. Evasion (or the lack thereof) eliminated the Magelord option, which would have been excellent for the original incarnation of flavor-thoughts. Ohhh well.
Well, technically its not evasion. Its called Prescience Sense. Its worded exactly like evasion, minus the whole "only in light or no armor" clause. Not that that really matters for a full caster, but regardless, its not REALLY evasion, just acts as evasion. The PrC also has a d6 HD, better than your sorc or other caster PrCs.
Not that it really matters anyway, since its in Complete Divine. lol...
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
I'm thinking either Knowledge: History or Knowledge: Local for my second Knowledge skill. History gives me +2 to my Lore checks, and Local gives me +2 to regular Gather Information checks. Not quite certain which is better.
Nobility and Royalty strikes me as also useful (+2 Diplomacy and I could see putting the Knowledge to use), but not really very in-character, I think.
As for my Skill Focus: Knowledge feat, Arcana seems most likely. Yay for knowing lots about magic.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
The big 6 are fairly simple:
Religion - Undead
Arcana - Magical Beasts, Dragons, Constructs
Nature - Plants, Fey, Animals
Dungeoneering - Abberations, Oozes
Planes - Outsiders
Local - Most humanoids
Those ones you want to keep maxed, since they give you insight on the foes you fight. Consult your PHB for information on those.
Otherwise, Knowledge skills are basically a way for your character to get more information from your DM about something. Say....you are in a cave. You inspect the cave walls and ask if you can make a Knowledge Architecture check. If your DM agrees, you roll the check, and based on the results, your DM tells you that the walls were carved by Dwarves, or naturally occuring, or shaped by magic, or something useful that might help you deduce information. Its like mini-divinations, except they don't require spell slots. The big 6 listed above are very important, and the others can be simulated with a Lore check, provided your Lore check is high enough.
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Aha. OK, so Local seems likely then. Would it be worthwhile to get 5 in History for the +2 to Lore? Would it be worthwhile to spend a few points in the others? I'm guessing yes; the Paragon and Loremaster gain a lot of skill points (for casters), by the end of those I'll have gained 60 skill points from them. I'll want a bunch in Spellcraft, Concentration, and obviously 15 in Knowledge: Arcana and 10 in another.
Various "talking to people" skills are also high on my list; let's take advantage of that Charisma! So Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and maybe Sense Motive would be high on my list. Gather Information seems related, too. And I want Use Magic Device, though that's lower priority. Four of those, the Loremaster doesn't get as Class Skills; I'll get one as Adaptive (probably Bluff, since it's currently my highest and likely to remain that way), but that probably means pumping the other three while I can. Unfortunately, the need to pump the two Knowledges comes first...
What are good levels for Concentrate and Spellcraft? Spellcraft obviously needs to be at least 15; I plan on the Counterspelling feats, which means recognizing spells is eminently useful. Is 15 enough, or should I expect to need more? How about Concentrate - if I stay back, should I not have to worry about being interrupted, or will it be a big problem if I don't get Concentrate high? How high? I'm looking for "enough", generally.
Also, just how much Bluff means you can lie your way out of damn near anything? I could potentially get 27 (Rank 23 + 4 Cha Mod + 1 Trait) Bluff without trying too hard if I choose it for my Adaptive Learning. Is that overkill? According to the SRD, it's their Sense Motive + 20 for something completely absurd; I'd get between 28 and 47 on my Bluff check, meaning on average I could beat anything with Sense Motive less than 17 (and a half, technically) - what kind of Sense Motive scores should I be expecting around 20?
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Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic
Spells: Good point on the saves and X against law. Saves aren't as important for grease and glitterdust as they are for charm monster, because you get repeat tries on the first two and they tend to be against groups of weaker monsters. Ok go spell focus (enchantment) and keep the law spells. If you face archers every day then you can keep wind wall on your list instead of on scroll(s). It does consume a combat action though (something you want to avoid when possible), and you could also try scrolls of protection from arrows (for non-magical arrows) or gloves of arrow snatching. Heroism is nice b/c you can cast it in the morning but I'm not a big fan of greater heroism because the lower duration prevents this. Even so, if you have a buffing round and you're already done with the good spells like haste, you can dedicate that to greater heroism. Just don't spend a combat round on it; even direct damage will hurt baddies a lot more.
Loremaster: While loremaster doesn't technically say you can't take druid as your language, I think it's implied in the system that no non-druid can learn druid. And whichever druid you learn the language from or whoever slips you a written guide (how he has time to write one unnoticed, I dunno), would be barred from druidism. The 5 ranks in history to get +2 to lore must be ranks; feats and other bonuses don't count. The same goes for pre-requisites for prestige classes; that number is the number of ranks you must have not your total modifier.
skills: You can read the skill descriptions and find the DCs so you can get enough of each one. To boost your cha skills, try a circlet of persuasion to get a +3 for only 4500 gp. Yes, staying in back so you don't even have to make a concentration check to cast defensively is ideal when you can. And remember there are no natural 1's on skill checks. If you're gonna focus on anything like counterspelling then ya try to get spellcraft as high as possible or high enough for auto-success if you can. Otherwise skills should be a secondary priority, since they're severely limited in scope (times you can use them). And be sure to use skills only according to their scope; bluff only for telling lies, for example. Otherwise you get stupid game stuff like "He's acting like a chicken b/c I told him he was one, look at him peck." No... he just believes you're telling the truth, and that you're probably crazy or else you have a long awaken animal + polymorph story to tell him why he's human now.