Sorcerer/Rogue Hybrid Recommendations

I'm working on a changeling hybrid Wild Mage Sorc/Dex Rogue character for our upcoming campaign. The choice of class/race was for flavour reasons and not because I think its especially optimal although the dex/cha synergy is nice.

My group is fairly into optimising and so i'm concerned about some aspect of the build and was hoping some of the charop experts on this board could give me some help.

It's especially important that its viable at all levels because we're starting at lvl 1 to play through a modified scales of war.

Current stats at lvl 1 after racial bonuses:

11 STR
10 CON
18 DEX
10 INT
8 WIS
19 CHA

AC 16

Feats: Unarmored Agility +2 cloth AC

Powers: Burning Spray, Acrobatic Strike, Explosive Pyre, Dazzling Ray

There are some really good RP elements of the character that I love. The ability to shapeshift into any medium humanoid is awesome. He also has fantastic skills as both a party face and a thief. His stealth is not fantastic for a rogue but obviously shapeshifting nullifies the need for that a bit.

The combat concept is basically a melee sorcerer with the mobility of a rogue and some of the rogue's extra actions and bonus damage eg sneak attack.

I've done some playtesting and it seems like survivability might be a problem with a starting AC of 16. It also seems like the damage at later levels dies off because the dagger bonuses for weapon and implement no longer cross over.

Any ideas or suggestions would be really appreciated. No part of the build or character is set in stone.

Have you considered simply playing one class or the other with a multiclass? I realize that it's not quite the same thing, but having played around with this combination a bit myself I can assure you that you'll have difficulty keeping up with a group that's "fairly into optimizing" without some neat tricks yourself.

Based on what you've said, a sorcerer multiclassing rogue sounds like what you want. Pick up the feat from PHB2 to let you use ranged spells at melee through a dagger - Sorcerous Blade Channelling, I think it's called - and if you have access to dragon look into an article about 'The Shivs of Sorcery' for some more melee options. Sneak of Shadows nets you a 1/encounter sneak attack, of course, as well as Stealth to shore up your semi-rogue abilities. A background will net you another skill as a class skill (I advise Streetwise for a Changeling) and you're in business.

Yeah I might end up having to do that. It would be a shame to lose out on some of the advantages of the hybrid though. I really like the ability to get minor action attacks like low slash that a sorc can't do at heroic levels. That and tumble so I can shift halfway across the map at a low level. Also the sneak attack damage only applies to rogue powers so wouldn't sneak of shadows not do anything?

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Originally Posted by Random_person

Have you considered simply playing one class or the other with a multiclass?

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Yeah, this. Don't make a hybrid unless you know exactly what you want from each class, and unless you find a trick to double-dip on striker damage (which this build doesn't) then you'll be weaker than either striker would be by itself.

Unfortunately, Sneak of Shadows gives you Thievery, not Stealth. Cunning Sneak is the one that gives Stealth. It's quite annoying, really.

As others have said, you're probably better off going with one class or the other. However, if you're dead-set on going with a hybrid, you might want to consider going with Sorcerer and Executioner Assassin instead of Rogue.

For one, executioner would give you a Dex-based MBA for free. Also, you could MC warlock via pact initiate to pick up an extra encounter attack (probably eyebite) and then grab Cursed Shadow to get the warlock's Shadow Walk feature. It looks like they changed the assassin's extra damage so it only applies to assassin powers now, unfortunately, so no double dipping striker mechanics any longer.

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Originally Posted by ghost_warlock

For one, executioner would give you a Dex-based MBA for free.

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Unless you have a warlord in the party with lots of "everybody gets an MBA" powers, I don't see how that matters. You lose a number of class features when hybriding, you had better make sure the trade is worth it.

MBAs are also used for opportunity attacks, which a melee-focused character might want to be able to make with some success.

My point was, if you're bound and determined to make a hybrid at least get the bases covered. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by ghost_warlock

MBAs are also used for opportunity attacks,

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Sure, but in my experience it's extremely rare for anyone, PC or monster, to provoke an opportunity attack. They're just too easy to avoid by shifting and teleporting powers. So no, getting an OA on a non-str based class is not a priority, except on defenders obviously.

I feel the need to point out that sorcerers have a Cha-based melee basic from the Dragon article I mentioned earlier. If you must play a hybrid, it's an option worth considering. Not having an at-will burst or blast will obviously modify your playstyle somewhat, but it could perhaps be made to work, and certainly wouldn't be any worse than what you were already intending.

As the hybrid lover of the forums, I will echo what has been said. I believe in playing good hybrids, or no hybrid. From what I can see, it's quite possible for you to build this effectively, if you are very careful with your power/feat selection. This is a selection from the old guide I started writing for 4E, and it covers hybrid basics.

Hybrid or Multiclass

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Originally Posted by tcrudisi

Hybrid: If you are new to 4e, creating a hybrid character is the last thing you want to do. Accept that this is here only for more advanced players and even they often screw it up. Simply put, save yourself the headache and just pretend that this option does not exist until you have played 4th edition for at least a few months.

For more advanced players, ask yourself these questions: Why do I need to hybrid? Can multiclassing accomplish my objectives? If so, that is almost always the best bet. If not, make sure that what you are getting from being a hybrid character is equal to or greater than what you are giving up (this is usually not the case).

(There are some basic rules to hybriding, a lot of which is covered in the miscibility table on the 4e forums.)

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Originally Posted by kyoryu

This, a thousand times over. One of the great things about 4e is that while there are certainly more powerful builds, it's hard to really gimp yourself if you make decisions that make any sense whatsoever. A novice thrown at the system, making decisions that "make sense," will likely create a character that can contribute reasonably well.

Hybrids are the exception to that rule. The only advice on hybrids in a guide for new players for 4e should be "don't."

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If this doesn't throw you off, then there are a few things you need to consider about your character. Does the character need to be a hybrid? Do the mechanics of another class do what you want, and just need refluffing? Or can this be solved with a multiclass feat or two, or a theme?

If you really want to use the mechanics of two separate classes, consider the following.
Where are you getting your AC?
What are you holding in your hands?
What exactly do you want your character to do, mechanically?
Is there any synergy between the Primary and Secondary Stats?
Are your NADs covered?

If you can't answer these questions, then you need to stop and go back and try again. Remember that hybrids get the worst of the combined armor proficiencies. Stats are easy to see, but consider how important certain classes' riders are. Does one class want a weapon in each hand, a single big one, some kind of implement or two? Weapliments are a hybrid's friend.

If you don't have a clear guide in mind, then the sheer number of options available to you will be overwhelming. You will have to choose between two entire classes worth of options, and if you don't actually know how they work, then maybe it isn't time to make a hybrid yet. Play at least one of the classes straight, and once you have a good handle on the game, have your current character get drunk and stay at the tavern, and introduce your new hybrid.

Here is a chart of hybrids that have potential.

If it's not the exact mechanics you want but the fluff, Warlock may be what you want, with a pact blade and Eldritch Strike you are able to stab and blast all you want. Hexblade may work as well. You can grab powers from any pact, which would give you the hodge podge feel of "Wild Magic."

If it is the mechanics you want, there are still options. There is no way to get Sneak Attack on a Sorcerer power, but if you can find minor action attacks from the Rogue side, then you could potentially make two attacks in a round, and that's never bad for a Striker. It does sound like you want to be a melee Sorcerer not a blasting Rogue. Really, you've taken full Sorcerer features and slapped Sneak Attack and some skills onto it, and swapped +1 Will for +1 Reflex. Power selection also clues this in.

You are in cloth armor which is bad for a melee character, but your high Dex will help compensate some. If you have a strong Defender that will help, but again, if you are bursting in melee, that's a lot of baddies looking at you. Consider powers that are reactions to getting hit. You only need a single dagger in your hand which helps, or grab one for blasting and one for slashing if you want. You will have good skills and be a party face and trap monkey, which helps, but your Arcana skill will suffer badly.

You said your party was optimization oriented. Is that the point of the game, or is it a habit? If you are the party Striker things might be rough, but if there is another that makes things easier. The more info you give us, the more we can help.