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My dragon sorc has 18 CHA at level 7. Taking ASI at LV 8, is it really worth the slight bump in attack rolls spell DC’s? It does assist with inspiring leader but there are no more spells known like wizards get for casting stat. Would you take a feat like magic initiate bard for healing word instead?
Is it necessary, no. That said, I personally like my spell strength as strong as possible. If I kept a sorcerer at 18, it'd annoy the heck out of me every time my enemy made their save by 1.
It depends on your sorcerer spells and role. If you’re a buffer, minion spells sorcerer charisma may not even need to be your primary stat, in that case it is constitution.
If you’re primarily an AoE or save or suck specialist than charisma absolutely need to be max first.
I find that 18 works up until about level 12, with the absolute limit being level 16
I prioritize 18 in my primary stat as a spellcaster (assuming that's an option from the start) and put off pushing to 20 until level 8. Level 4 is usually a feat like War Caster or Inspiring Leader.
Sorcerer's are a bit unique, it depends entirely on your spell selection. If you have support spells, don't bother. If you're using save spells, I would recommend pushing it up, if you're using primarily attack roll spells it's your choice but I would lean towards waiting.
Mathematically 18 is fine until level 12. You'll be playing for a long time between those levels. Get the feat you'll have lots of fun using. At level 12 evaluate how things have been going. If you've been making your spell attack rolls and monsters have been failing saving throws a personal subjective reasonable amount, then another feat is fine. If you just feel it you need more oomph go to 20. If other party members are at 20 in their prime, you'll likely want the 20 to be in the club. At level 16 get the 20 definitely if you haven't already. If you know the campaign will end before or at level 16 that could influence your decision. You'll have to figure it out yourself based on what's going on in the game and your mood. Getting the 20 at level 12 is fine, but the feat might be important enough too. You don't lose out either way.
If you want the 20 at level 8 by all means take it. It is a fun effective boost in its own right. You can be worry free not taking the 20 won't hurt you, so take the opportunity to choose what's fun for you even if it is getting the 20.
I'll plus that, 100 times, for any "normal caster". Like others said, if on top of that your spell selection favor non-save spells, then you could stay even 16 for your whole career.Quote:
Originally Posted by sithlordnergal
Cha 20 is only "required" for blaster-type Sorcerers, particularly Dragon Sorcerers.
That is, Charisma is particularly valuable for Sorcerers who want to maximize the benefit from Careful Spell and Empowered Spell, primarily the latter. Those are the only metamagic options which depend on your Charisma modifier, and both are specifically for blasters. Careful Spell probably doesn't need Cha 20 (as it's unlikely that you'll have 5 creatures you want to exclude in the vast majority of cases), but Empowered Spell definitely does benefit. Further, Dragon Sorcs get Elemental Affinity at level 6, which adds their Charisma modifier to spell damage (if aligned with their dragon ancestor), and is a major shot in the arm for Sorcerer damage output.
Technically, Storm Sorcerers also want high Charisma at high levels, as they grant flight to a number of creatures equal to 3+Cha mod, but again this suffers diminishing returns (I sincerely doubt granting an hour of flight to 8 creatures would be necessary for most characters).
If you play pretty much any other kind of Sorcerer, though? You can almost certainly get by with 16 Cha starting, moving to 18 at level 4, then taking a fun or powerful feat (many Dragon Sorcs pick up Elemental Adept for their chosen element, typically Fire) at level 8.
I will get to 20 as fast as possible (unless I need a feat for my character concept).
Every +1 have a heavy impact in the world of bounded accuracy.
The fact that there is a cap make it that you can take the ASI for your main stat and forget about it later without feeling like you are missing power.
I'll echo the previous sentiments. It's all about spell selection. Very few sorcerer features actually care about Charisma, and only Dragon's Elemental Affinity actually gets any real mileage out of it, so what you use from spells determines nearly everything.
Do you spend most of your time shooting fire bolts and chucking fireballs, mixing it with a couple of phantasmal forces? Go for 20, your DCs and attack rolls come up quite often, and a +1 is important in a bounded accuracy system. Bonus points if you spend your free time wooing ladies and scaring peasants, since you're buffing your face skills.
Is your schtick twinning haste, sneaking around with invisibility and pulling pranks with illusions? You don't really need Charisma in that case. 18 or even 16 should do fine, it's not like you depend that much on your DC and spell attacks.
Getting your DCs as high as possible as fast as possible is nice and means you are less likely to waste turns wiffing with spells/wasting slots. I wouldn't say its necessary but I would want to be confident that what I was getting in exchange was worth it.
If this is a flavour/roleplay thing you may decide that was worth it (I'm not sure I'd ever do this over multiclassing) but in terms of straight optimisation I would take +2 Cha over this 100% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stygofthedump
Thanks for replies.
Playing a gold dragon sorc but rarely pull out fireball. Prefer twin haste on paladins (2 of em) or polymorph. I do sling firebolt a bit so + to hit and damage is pretty good.
Other meta is subtle which DM has ruled can be used with helm of telepathy, so fixed DC on that. Also have mirror image, misty step and counter spell. Not big on save or suck spells.
We have no cleric or bard or wizard so big hole in party spell casting with only sorc. Unfortunately I don’t have stats for ritual casting, hence the query regarding magic ini (bard). We don’t allow multi classing for this module.
Cheers and merry Christmas
A 20 isn't needed untill high levels, if then.
What matters for is what you get out of it, relative to what else you might get. If feats are available that's a lot of options. Otherwise you're typically comparing it to +1 initiative/AC/Dex saves, or +1 hp/level and con saves. For a Sorc.
When I've cranked the math, it looks more like a 16 'expected' by the system until 10, an 18 after that, and a 20 not at all. I assume average party level vs =CR-3 being the norm though. If you assume vs =CR, a 20 is 'expected' in Tier 4. It's probably also a good idea if you expect to face higher than CR 20 enemies at end game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pex
Is 20 CHA really that important for a sorcerer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stygofthedump
Technically, it helps with some spells of your list and you'll need 13 to multiclass.
Generally, no.
Sorcerers were given innate powers from God knows where, it or them did not care about how charismatic your were nor how charismatic you would become.
I've heard of awesomely roleplayed 8 Cha Bards, so I think you can pull off a Sorcerer with any Cha score.
But you've said you have 18 Cha - that's more than enough. If you're worried about the Spell Save DC/Spell Attack modifier, teammates support might assist you somehow.
Bane alone, if successful, will shave off 1D4 from the first saving throw your foe will make. That's already the potential "-1 to Spell Save DC from not taking 20 Cha" taken care of.
On the Magic Initiate part: sure, why not? lots of good things here and Healing Word is among the best once per long rest spells you can take. Plus, and that's the great thing with playing a Sorcerer, your Metamagic works on ANY spells/cantrips you select. That's huge!
(source: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...geadvice_feats, ctrl+F Magic Initiate)
Twinned Spell would allow you to cast double Healing Word once per long rest, Distant Spell would allow Spare the Dying (you're taking MI Cleric, right?) to stabilize an ally within 30 ft etc
Spell save at level 8 with 18 CHA = 15
Spell save with 20 CHA = 16
Chance to save with + 0 modifier = 30% for 15 and 25% for 16 (1-14 are failure for the first and 1-15 for the second leaving 6/20 rolls as success for the first and 5/20 for the second).
Here's where it gets weird because a percentage vs another percentage is a new ratio with a new percentage:
30 is 20% more than 25. (30/25 = 1.2)
At level 9 it is now 16 vs 17 for spell DC
So 20 vs 25 percent chance to save at +0
25 is 25% more than 20 (25/20).
Essentially, if you target weak saves the odds of enemies saving is increased by roughly 20-25% when you don't pump charisma.
It's a 5% difference on a d20 but since we're comparing two percentages it's a 25% difference in sucesses for weak saves.
Is that worth a feat to you?
Calling it a 20-25% bump in success rate might matter for any one given chance.
But IMO the relevant number is still makes a difference 1 in every 20 spells cast requiring a saving throw or attack roll. On average.
Edit: removed some unnecessarily aggressive phrasing
Re: Magic Initiate for Healing Word, that depends entirely on how your DM interprets it. RAW you only get one use per long rest. Which can be an okay clutch move, but if you need to get people up taking Find Familiar and having it drop healing potions down peoples throats if they go down is more likely to be impactful than just getting one downed ally up with a handful of HP once. Plus, with two paladins in the party, a downed guy can just get LOH'd back up with a fair number of HP. If your DM rules that the MI spell gets added to your spells known, it suddenly becomes a lot better.
For your main question, casting stat is important to most casters. Attacking, forcing enemy saves, and even countering all rely on it. That said, while you do want to max your casting stat out eventually, adding a tactically important ability is often handier than getting +1. So don't feel too bad sinking an ASI into a useful feat instead of zooming straight to 20.
Is it important? Yes. Is it mandatory for the viability of the character. No.
Some specialised build don't rely on it, generalists, buffers and debuffers get a lot from better spell DC and spell attack.
But this is purely based on the class itself, depending on how you play, on the type of campaign and the role you play in your party, you might get more satisfaction taking a feat.
I love sorcerers, and I love being the face in the party (I also feel like I'm unlucky with the dices), so maxing charisma is awesome in my perspective.
I don't see it even being very important. It certainly isn't necessary.
+1? Who really cares? So enemies make their saves 5% more of the time. That's it. As mentioned, for careful/empowered sorcerers it has more of an impact. But, imo, worrying about 5% isn't worth it unless that is the driving characteristic of your character concept.
IMO, you can have a lot more fun by playing a more versatile character concept than a more optimized one. But, that depends on your preferences and the way the game plays at your table.
That question is totally irrelevant because your "stat bump" is static and previsible, whereas you can grab a feat among a wildly different selection.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUser
But I'll play.
"Yeah, that is totally worth a feat".
Everyone around here is always cringing upon stats and probabilities.
The crux of the matter is that you will *rarely* actually see the difference.
Probabilities are different from statistics, and statistics are different from the reality of any one specific situation.
I already lived encounters when we engaged confident in an easy victory because we had a solid plan, as well as a decent backup plan, with spells enemies had only 20% chance to save, yet they rolled both high enough to save with several points of margin.
It was epic by the way, that moment when we realized we could actually lose hahaha.
My point is: the occurences where the actual bump would have made a difference on whether spell succeeds or fails is, on average over a campaign, coherent with the difference in probability.
Nothing more.
Consequence? You should always have three different strategies ready for when your silver bullet fails, because unless you're talking about a level 20 character using an INT-targeting spell against a medium creature, s*** can still happen on a 5% chance. And not simply expect it to succeed "because I have max stat and it has very little bonus".
Meanwhile, feats can allow you...
- To multiply the number of spells you know and use some rituals to facilitate/avoid encounters (Ritual Caster)
- To get a chance to immediately even the odds of a fight in your favor when you get the first impression of their composition and supposed tactics, because you grasped the first place in Initiative (Alert)
- To get *anyone* a "soft advantage" by a reroll that refreshes *every round* (Bountiful Luck, much more interesting than Lucky)
- To spare the party healer somewhere between a handful of 1st level slots and up to half its casting capacity for the day by granting THP (Inspiring Leader).
- To potentially nullify a (usually ranged) weapon attack that may hurt your HP and your concentration by upping AC (Defensive Duelist taken after level 10).
- To become an extremely dangerous nuisance to your fellow casters (Mage Slayer paired with Scorching Ray, Magic Missile or even Eldricht Blast).
- Or simply to expand your free utility with two more cantrips and another spell (possibly extending your number of spell known) (Magic Initiate).
And those are only the most "classic" ones, you also get several racial feats that can come into play very often.
So, yeah, whether on a Sorcerer or on any other class really, I'd always strongly consider grabbing a feat over the potential of maxing a stat. Whatever works the best for my party first, and my playstyle second, basically.
Back at opening post and poster, I'd suggest you to consider the aforementioned short-list and ponder if those could be more useful to your party than a plain +2 in CHA (the +1 THP on Inspiring Leader is completely inconsequential, so it's really about spell save).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stygofthedump
If no feat seems useful for you, you may also want to bump your Constitution. If you have 16 already, it's probably fine as is but if you're heavy on concentration spells and find yourself making concentration saves more than one or two handful per adventuring day, then it may be a better investment. :)
Well, there are many ways to gain +1 AC from items, class features, etc. but there are not many items/ways to give sorcerer +1 DC, right?
So maxing Cha is not most important or most necessary, but it's one of the most limited sources to buff DC for sorcerers.
True, except if you're a Shadow Sorcerer (you "buff" by imposing disadvantage) or one with Heightened (it's very costly, and it's only for one target, and its only for the initial save... But even like that it can be totally worth with some spells ^^).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barny
Personally, I disagree with your maxing out party utility first playstyle. *scrubbed*Quote:
Originally Posted by HiveStriker
A 20 is never required and is not as important as many may make you feel.
That being said for many casters I often do not have anything better to spend that ASI on so I often do get a 20 quick. It is also always a great choice because it is always good and effective so it is always the safe pick.
So always a great choice but not so important that you need to do it.
20 is a boring mechanical bump. Boring mechanical bumps do not feel large even when they are.
There are going to be some feats which may matter more. Are you a twin casting haste sorcerer? Then advantage on con saves for concentration might win.
But the baseline "AC" for saves is 14; a +5 mod means you can become 90% reliable hitting 10 stat no save targets. And on +6-7 prof tier targets it means your spells eat through legendary resists that much faster.
You can build for "do not trigger a save", but that is going to be restrictive. I've done it.
Well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barny
1. I always play in parties in which I'm the main guy tasked with assessing party strengths and filling in.
2. I don't see how first criteria and second would be incompatible, because otherwise it would end inefficient. I don't go inefficient. :)
3. I don't think your argument holds anyways: in actual game, there is an actual progression. If the character likes the party he's in and consider them friends/family, wouldn't it be natural for him to try and evolve in the way that maximizes their chance of survival and success?
It's not like we are talking about changing character concept here. We are talking about something that is important yet still overall minor in how the character plays and behave.
If I had to follow your logic, then you would be fine with a Cleric that simply doesn't prepare Healing Words because follows a Death God, *even after his party nearly got TPK or they actually lost a character*.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily. Not if that character was the only one with access to emergency healing like such.
Being in a group always require some investment.
So for example, if I'm in a party and that we find ourselves often missing the mark and needlessly struggling because my control spells come late too often, I'll obviously think that I should find a way to be quicker on my feet when fight starts, so I'll start spending time downtime finding ways to train about it.
Because, you know, by the way, how would YOU justify the feats you grab?
Feats are metagaming in essence, since they are features completely unrelated to your class or background in essence.
So it has always been up to the player to integrate it as something progressive and natural in their character development. It's exactly the same whether you pick a feat for your personal interest first or your party interest first.
Besides, it's not like the feat does not benefit you (except maybe Inspiring Leader).
Basically, you are shocked that someone may want to favor a direction to evolve that benefits other people rather than himself first. That's your problem. XD
I am not gonna argue with you since the begining because there are already many arguments over min/max vs RP oriented, and I merely stated my personal opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiveStriker
It's perfectly fine that you build your character RP for party efficiency or party helper if this role fits with your background story and character development.
But I wonder if you would keep repeating the identical character RP once you experience more and more 5e games.
How often does your character have his own soul to make decisions different from your preferernce and priorities?
In my personal experience, min/maxing an efficient combat-oriented character is easy and boring, but building a flawed character with distinctive soul/RP is challenging and fun.