Getting around Immunity to Mind-Affecting

Does there exist a blanket means of getting around the Immunity to Mind-Affecting quality that some creatures have without trying to shut down their "typing" (for lack of a better term)? I've noticed that there seem to be ways to get around individual types or specific instances (such as the Undead one, or using Shatter Mind Blank to break a Mind Blank), but nothing that can break through, for example, the immunity Malcanthet or Shami-Aumorae have (in Dungeon #148-149).

It seems to be something they and other creatures just "have" and I haven't been able to find anything that would break it short of a carefully-worded Wish spell (and that's somewhat questionable owing to it not being the sort of thing that's within the bounds of a wish, even if it only gets past it for a short while). Even epic magic doesn't appear to have anything that could do the trick.

You don't need to word the Wish carefully; just use it or Limited Wish to mimic the spell you want. They have their own type lines, and so aren't mind-affecting (though is this what you meant when you said you don't want to shut down the typing?).

There was that variant for nightmare spinner that allowed enchantment to bypass it.

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Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You don't need to word the Wish carefully; just use it or Limited Wish to mimic the spell you want. They have their own type lines, and so aren't mind-affecting (though is this what you meant when you said you don't want to shut down the typing?).

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Well, to use Malcanthet as an example again (from Dungeon #149, page 70), her immunities are are electricity, poison, possession and mind-affecting. Her typing is Outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar'ri). But nowhere in her statblock can I find any particular reason she has immunity to mind affecting that isn't just "she has it because she has it" - it's not a mind blank effect, or a result of her type, so any spell that could get around an Undead immunity (or similar immunity as a result of her typing) wouldn't work, and nor would Shatter Mind Blank (since it's not a mind blank).

So is there a way to get around this particular form of immunity to mind-affecting effects?

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Originally Posted by Alleran

but nothing that can break through, for example, the immunity Malcanthet or Shami-Aumorae have (in Dungeon #148-149).

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Not sure who Shami-whoever is, but Malcanthet was statted for 3.5 in Fiendish Codex 1. She has the ability to reflect enchantments if they fail to penetrate her SR, but no immunity to mind-affecting that I can see. Since that printing is a 1st-party source and Dungeon is not, you would use the FC1 by RAW instead.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Not sure who Shami-whoever is, but Malcanthet was statted for 3.5 in Fiendish Codex 1. She has the ability to reflect enchantments if they fail to penetrate her SR, but no immunity to mind-affecting that I can see. Since that printing is a 1st-party source and Dungeon is not, you would use the FC1 by RAW instead.

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The Malcanthet listed in the Dungeon magazine is an advanced form (it takes the FCI version to be a high-level aspect, much like FCII gives the Archdevils as aspects). 33 HD, boosted powers and abilities (including the addition of the "Queen's Kiss" power), Tongues as an always-on (Su) ability, her scourge statted out - basically, it's the same Malcanthet from Dragon #353 and the Iggwilv's Demonomicon article. I'm largely using her (and Shami-Aumorae) as examples of an Immunity to Mind-Affecting that isn't tied to anything specific like a Mind Blank or particular typing.

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Originally Posted by Alleran

The Malcanthet listed in the Dungeon magazine is an advanced form (it takes the FCI version to be a high-level aspect, much like FCII gives the Archdevils as aspects). 33 HD, boosted powers and abilities (including the addition of the "Queen's Kiss" power), Tongues as an always-on (Su) ability, her scourge statted out - basically, it's the same Malcanthet from Dragon #353 and the Iggwilv's Demonomicon article. I'm largely using her (and Shami-Aumorae) as examples of an Immunity to Mind-Affecting that isn't tied to anything specific like a Mind Blank or particular typing.

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This is actually not correct; the statblocks within FC1 ARE for the demon lords themselves, simply scaled down to be low-epic challenge. Their aspects were released separately from the sourcebook via the web enhancement. This is clearly stated on FC1 pg. 57. FC2, on the other hand, does stat the aspects in the book, because all of the Lords of 9 were previously statted in BoVD.

The FC1 stats were intentionally toned down to allow players to face them in high-level or low-epic games; pg. 58 then gives DMs instructions on how to "beef them up" to match the BoVD stats for the Lords of 9. But the FC1 stats for Malcanthet still supersede those in Dungeon, because FC1 is the primary source for the Demon Lords in 3.5.


I know why you're using the Dungeon stats for this exercise; I'm merely pointing out that WotC design philosophy most likely changed since the article you were looking at, and any blanket immunity to mind-affecting (or anything else) would have some kind of visible source (e.g. due to creature type, an active mind blank or item, even an Ex ability with possible exceptions.)

This is not quite what you want, but I believe Necrotic Empowerment allows a spell with a domination type of effect that is not mind affecting.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

This is actually not correct; the statblocks within FC1 ARE for the demon lords themselves, simply scaled down to be low-epic challenge.

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As I said, the Dragon/Dungeon magazine takes them to be high-level aspects, and advances them according to the guidelines given in FCI. Not that they are aspects in FCI.

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I know why you're using the Dungeon stats for this exercise; I'm merely pointing out that WotC design philosophy most likely changed since the article you were looking at, and any blanket immunity to mind-affecting (or anything else) would have some kind of visible source (e.g. due to creature type, an active mind blank or item, even an Ex ability with possible exceptions.)

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The immunity doesn't seem to have a visible source - no items, no supernaturals, extraordinaries or SLAs, it's not added to her Reflect Enchantment ability, nothing. She probably has her non-specifically sourced immunity to stop players from easily getting around it. As would any other examples sharing this kind of immunity (being a named individual also cuts off the potential for Gate or even epic summoning spells from forcibly drawing such a named creature through).

Still, I'd like to see if some way around this kind of immunity can be brainstormed (or is already known). Or if it just can't be broken down, gotten-past, or ignored altogether by RAW in any way.

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Originally Posted by Anthrowhale

This is not quite what you want, but I believe Necrotic Empowerment allows a spell with a domination type of effect that is not mind affecting.

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Having checked, Necrotic Domination works like dominate person (so any humanoid). It doesn't have the [Mind-Affecting] tag, but dominate person does - which may make it troublesome. Skimming through some of the other necrotic spells, Necrotic Tumor might work (and does prevent protection from evil or similar spells from blocking the control, since the cyst would already be inside). It's not a mind-affecting effect, so an immunity shouldn't stop it from working. I think. Getting the cyst on the target (past protection from evil or similar) is problematic, though. The cysts can also be removed, which might kill any chance of control. And if the target is a big, nasty creature that any sane wizard wouldn't want within ten miles under normal, controlled conditions... :smalleek: