Fallout Fluff Forum - Plasma Guns, Power Armors, Mutants and Tribals, no it's not 40K

Been playing a lot of Fallout New Vegas recently, and I thought such a rich world yet mainly untapped might deserve a little bit of Fluff discussions...

The question I want to kickoff the thread with is something that has been puzzling me recently, and I just encountered the issue during Veronica's quest:

Is the Brotherhood of Steel's mission objective now outdated? Especially with the re-emergence of centralized governments like the NCR. Or does these emergence just make their mission all the more critical?

I mean.. the original Brotherhood of Steel, as encountered in the original Fallout, was an organization destined to preserve knowledge after the Apocalypse. One mean of achieving that end was to gather as much pre-war technology around as possible; make sure its manufacturing process was not lost. They never were do-gooder; in fact one of the potential ending had the Brotherhood wipe out Shandy Town just because they had becomed too successful a centre of civilization.

Now, with Fallout New Vegas (let's ignore Fallout 3 for a minute), their new mission objective seems to be keeping high tech out of the hands of the rest of the world. Why? I am not sure. Avoid repeating mistakes of the past? Avoid a repeat of the Apocalypse? How is keeping Power Armor, Robotics and Energy Weaponry out of the hand of the common people would prevent a repeat of the Nuclear Apocalypse?

In fact, with the emergence of new Energy Weapon manufactories (like the Van Graff family), wouldn't you think that the Brotherhood's mission of "preserving" technology is now secured? At least, when it comes to Energy Weapon? Wouldn't the Brotherhood endanger that human knowledge if it destroyed these alternate manufacturing centers?


Or maybe I see it wrongly? Is it possible the Brotherhood should remain as a vanguard against government abusing technology in a risky way? They should remain hidden, discreet and still keep their technological supremacy in order to make sure no government get in a position to repeat the errors of the past?


Thinking about all this, I may see how a Brotherhood splinter like the one we've seen in Fallout 3 might emerge. As they are getting more and more marginalized and less powerful in the West, they decided to create a new power base for themselves in the East, and take an active hand in its administration so no other rival power might emerge. Basically trying to cut the herb under the NCR feet, and maybe in the future have to deal with them with a more leveraged position?

... but a NCR/Washington of Steel rivalry might just cause another massive war that destroys civilization...

It could be as simple as the old saw: power corrupts. Having access to better tech than anyone else means the Brotherhood have power, and a lot of them probably want to keep hold of that power, even if it causes issues with everyone else.

I wasnt exactly asking why THEY do not change their ways. But instead was questioning their existence on an absolutist moral assessment.

I can totally agree with your assessment, obviously. Its rather clear a lot of the Brotherhood are just isolationists who want to be in position to shoot at anyone they feel is a danger, not unlike the Boomers.

However, that "power" has degraded badly in recent years (as of New Vegas). They no longer have the edge in military capability. They keep clinging on old ways that is actually making them weaker, not stronger. Cant say it is a surprising behavior in highly traditionalist organizations.

One point I really liked about Veronica's and the Brotherhood's storyline in New Vegas was the subtle jab at how Bethesda wrote the Brotherhood in Fallout 3 in comparison to the other games in the series... but not in condemning way. Lyons is absolutely right, the Brotherhood needs to change.

In Asimov's Foundation series the Foundation just like the BoS is also an organization set up to rebuild civilization after the fall and to guard knowledge of advanced science. But in that series, the original plan of isolationism and subtle manipulation failed and the Foundation itself almost would have failed as well if those who still adhered to the original plan to the letter weren't ousted out of power by smarter, more adaptive people who realized that the situation had changed. The Brotherhood of Steel is in the same position right now. Lyons saw an opportunity and it may have cost him some followers in the short run when the outcasts defected from the D.C. chapter, but by opening up the Brotherhood to outsiders and by cooperating with the locals he turned the Brotherhood into a true power on the east coast. And after the events of Fallout 3, now that there's clean water in the entire region people can actually start rebuilding civilization and the Brotherhood is gonna be a cornerstone of that new society because everybody is relying on them, not just on water but also on protection, on education, everything. Give them ten years and they will rule the Capital Wasteland.

I did notices that Jab as well. Very fun to pick up on. But like you say, the events of New Vegas really shed a whole new light on Fallout 3.

Many people really hated the fact that the BoS was turned into goody two-shoes. Me included. But now, with the insight provided by New Vegas, i can appreciate why the BoS of FO3 had to go through that transformation (in-universe at least).

Also kind of blow appart the so-called excuse for the BoS being so far East: they were not "on a quest to discover new technologies and decided to start locals". They were refugees fleeing the NCR trying to have a new beginning in the Capital Wasteland, avoid a repeat of the mistakes of the past.

It is really a credit to New Vegas writers that they manages to make a previous game's very criticized worldbuilding element suddenly make sense retroactively.

It's obvious by New Vegas that the Brotherhood has largely lost its way, they started out as preservers and repairers of technology (with a military bent because they were born from US Army personnel), but turned into hoarders of technology who collected it to keep it from others, not to keep it from being lost.

So yeah, Bethesda rewriting them into "the good guys" was just them being worse at writing than Black Isle/Obsidian, but it did get used in interesting ways when people who understood Fallout better took the reins.

The West Coast BoS has absolutely lost sight of its original mission - instead of protecting technology and knowledge, they go to war to keep it out of the hands of the people who need it. Not that the NCR is a shining bastion of incorruptible pureness either, of course, but the Brotherhood's problems are spelled out plain as day, especially if you do Veronica's personal quest. They're likely to either be wiped out or bred out in the fairly near future unless something drastic happens.

(For the record, my Independent Courier spared the Hidden Valley bunker, but pickpocketed all their self-destruct keys, just in case they got uppity later.)

The fact that the people of the Wasteland are discovering and rediscovering advanced technologies at a rate faster than anyone - let alone a few dozen holdouts hiding in a bunker - can possibly stop just makes it that much sadder.

Yeah, the West Coast/East Coast divide is mainly about the future of the brotherhood now that the BoS doesn't automatically win any engagement they have due to technological superiority. In Fallout 2, humanity was still scarce and energy weapons and power armor rare enough to be treasures, now they can be manufactured and even sold commercially, negating the only thing the BoS has going for them.

So the East Coasters decided to go out and help people, thus establishing a power base and gaining important new recruits at the expense of loosing their dogma, while the West Coasters are hardcore 24/7. However, with their only real advantage negated by time, their best hope is to be marginalized if they don't go out in a blaze of glory. Their isolationist mindset just has not place in a world of organized governments with regular access to advanced technology.

If I were the Elder in charge, I'd focus more on science for the discovery of new stuff instead of repairing and hiding the old stuff. Ally yourself with the NCR, and you can quickly establish a scientific powerhouse that maybe doesn't control old technology, but certaily controls new technology.

By the way: NCR and PROUD!

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Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

In Fallout 2, humanity was still scarce and energy weapons and power armor rare enough to be treasures, now they can be manufactured and even sold commercially, negating the only thing the BoS has going for them.

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Energy weapons are mostly curiosities in New Vegas, still, with most of the users being private owners rather than military or paramilitary outside of the Van Graffs' thugs and the Brotherhood. (Disregarding Mr. House and his Securitron army, since he's basically a resurgent Pre-War power)

Power armor's still rare and essentially exclusive to the Brotherhood. The NCR's "power" armor is salvaged and stripped T-45d used for elites (and the Scorching Sierra armor is a colonel's customized non-stripped T-45d armor), the Ranger Veteran gear that looks like power armor isn't (and appears to be mostly salvaged Pre-War riot gear), the only pieces of Enclave armor remaining in the West Coast are with aging veterans (and certainly not available for sale by the East Coast Enclave in FO3), and the Brotherhood is the only power in the Mojave that equips its military with actual power armor.

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Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

If I were the Elder in charge, I'd focus more on science for the discovery of new stuff instead of repairing and hiding the old stuff. Ally yourself with the NCR, and you can quickly establish a scientific powerhouse that maybe doesn't control old technology, but certaily controls new technology.

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Discovering new stuff more-or-less still involves a lot of researching the old stuff. Pre-War society, despite being a future that looks like it never got out of the 1950s culturally, was ridiculously advanced before it bombed itself back to a pre-Industrial world. Any major advances since then were made by groups that preserved Pre-War knowledge (primarily the Enclave and Big MT, rather than the pseudo-religious Brotherhood, which was born out of the execution of the West-Tek research team responsible for the FEV), while the rest were mostly minor tweaks of rediscovered tech.

Actually, i could see some sort of Evil Brotherhood that sort of allies itself with the Legion.

Think about it: the Legion with the BoS living at its core. The Legion's most promising minds sent to become its scribes, while its most loyal centurions become the Brotherhood's new paladins. The Legion's mandate of forbidding technology is sorta compatible with the Brotherhood desire to keep techs in their own hands.

Basically, the Brotherhood will safeguard technologies in the Legion's name, providing any sort of advanced assistance the Legion might require in its projects. Usually this means essentially advanced weaponry or advanced weaponry tech support (like the artillery)

Eh... not seeing it. The Legion is very anti-technology (stupid as that might be) so even with Caesar at the helm the chances of that alliance ever getting off the ground would be very slim, with Caesar gone, there's absolutely no way.

Except if the Courier takes control of the Legion..?

The Legion isn't as simple as "anti-technology", but they do view certain technologies as having made people weak and to be avoided.

They probably wouldn't get along with any form of Brotherhood

Except for weapons.
And autodoc

The Legion is hypocritical about these "values". It will merely adopt the base minimal required technology to dominate, but doesnt seem.above using tech when it actually need it. The Legion always struct me as pragmatic, first and foremost. None of its ideals are inviolate as long as it assures victory.

Caesar himself basically admits it when it comes to his brain tumor. Or its temporary allies.

The Brotherhood/Legion alliance would, in my opinion, mirror the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus.

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Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Energy weapons are mostly curiosities in New Vegas, still, with most of the users being private owners rather than military or paramilitary outside of the Van Graffs' thugs and the Brotherhood. (Disregarding Mr. House and his Securitron army, since he's basically a resurgent Pre-War power)

Power armor's still rare and essentially exclusive to the Brotherhood. The NCR's "power" armor is salvaged and stripped T-45d used for elites (and the Scorching Sierra armor is a colonel's customized non-stripped T-45d armor), the Ranger Veteran gear that looks like power armor isn't (and appears to be mostly salvaged Pre-War riot gear), the only pieces of Enclave armor remaining in the West Coast are with aging veterans (and certainly not available for sale by the East Coast Enclave in FO3), and the Brotherhood is the only power in the Mojave that equips its military with actual power armor.

Discovering new stuff more-or-less still involves a lot of researching the old stuff. Pre-War society, despite being a future that looks like it never got out of the 1950s culturally, was ridiculously advanced before it bombed itself back to a pre-Industrial world. Any major advances since then were made by groups that preserved Pre-War knowledge (primarily the Enclave and Big MT, rather than the pseudo-religious Brotherhood, which was born out of the execution of the West-Tek research team responsible for the FEV), while the rest were mostly minor tweaks of rediscovered tech.

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Well, the Brotherhood is a pre-war power too, in the end, just like any high technology faction. High technology in Fallout is either in the hands of those who had the stuff when the bombs fell and managed to hold on to it, or by people who discovered old storehouses, for example.

Still, the NCR managed to build a real government with a standing (more-or-less) well equipped army basically from the ground up, and I could see that back in the core NCR, where they have actual schools and maybe even a university, (re)discovery will go a lot faster than out in the wasteland. So if something doesn't change, and soon, the BoS WILL be a footnote to the new empires. The capture of the Helios plant shows that.

If you had to develop your own region for Falloutverse, where would it be?

Also, what is your favorite element of Falloutfluff?

I personally love the Kings. They just.. They just are incredibly hilarious, yet... Understandable a concept...

Also, Fission Batteries. Damn those things are stoopid

I'd do something in Florida for two reasons, one because I am sick of deserts, I want tropical swamps and beaches and two, it's one of the most culturally diverse places in the US and I want to what happens when a melting pot goes nuclear.
Also, tribes of butt**** crazy hillbillies from the swamp riding mutant alligators into battle. You know you want to see that.

As for my favorite Fallout fluff... I really like Boomers for some reason. Lock a ton of NRA people in a bunker, let them simmer there for 200 years, step back and watch them unleash hell on the wasteland. It's hilarious but also very believable.

I second Florida or the Deep South. Texas might be a good compromise, being essentially in between the existing settings, although preferably not the really deserty part. The eastern half of the state has a much more diverse set of terrain, not to mention big cities to have gotten nuked.

I think my favorite fluff is probably the whole idea of New Vegas as a bottle city-state rebuilt by a crazy industrialist out of vague memories of Pre-War society.

I'd like to see more city, maybe one of the heavier industrialized zones, like Detroit or something.

My favourite Fallout fluff element? I just love the 50s culture gone bad, and the irony created by using a 5 ton vacuum tube computer to perform basic functions in game while playing the game on a newest-generation laptop.

The Ghouls are cool, too. You might say they're... rad.

I'd like to see Europe. Admittedly, I believe Europe had a devastating war with the Middle East that ended when the oil ran out there (some years before the actual nuclear exchange), so I have no idea what state it was in even before the nukes fell, but it's a part of the Fallout world we've never seen onscreen.

Were the Vaults a multi-national thing? I was under the impression that the American people were the only ones subject to the experiment, so there wouldn't be any in Europe.

I love the idea of a Fallout set in Europe, but... To me, at least, Fallout is built on the Vaults and 1950's U.S. culture. I'd have to play it to be sure, but I just wouldn't be as hyped about it.

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Originally Posted by Nilehus

Were the Vaults a multi-national thing? I was under the impression that the American people were the only ones subject to the experiment, so there wouldn't be any in Europe.

I love the idea of a Fallout set in Europe, but... To me, at least, Fallout is built on the Vaults and 1950's U.S. culture. I'd have to play it to be sure, but I just wouldn't be as hyped about it.

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We have precious little information of what happened outside the US. According to the Fallout Bible, Canada got annexed, Mexico got invaded (both by the US), the European Commonwealth was dissolved in 2060 after their campaign to control the Middle East, the UN fell apart in 2052, Tel Aviv was nuked by terrorists in 2052, and China entered a costly war with the US over Alaskan oil starting in 2066 (it and the oil from the Poseidon rig in FO2 were the last known sources, and the US claimed it all) and continuing until 2077.

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Originally Posted by Mando Knight

We have precious little information of what happened outside the US. According to the Fallout Bible, Canada got annexed, Mexico got invaded (both by the US), the European Commonwealth was dissolved in 2060 after their campaign to control the Middle East, the UN fell apart in 2052, Tel Aviv was nuked by terrorists in 2052, and China entered a costly war with the US over Alaskan oil starting in 2066 (it and the oil from the Poseidon rig in FO2 were the last known sources, and the US claimed it all) and continuing until 2077.

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Nice summary. :smallsmile:

As long as it has the same general feel, I really don't care where it ends up. So long as there's some equivalent of Vault-Tec. Wouldn't be Fallout without it.

Well, i was hoping to make a Quebec-based Fallout setting. So i was wondering if there might have been vaults built in occupied Canadian territories..

I can only imagine what a Mutant Wolverine would look like. Or how the local tribals are using Nuclear-powered skates and chain hockey stick to fend off raiders

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Originally Posted by Nilehus

Were the Vaults a multi-national thing? I was under the impression that the American people were the only ones subject to the experiment, so there wouldn't be any in Europe.

I love the idea of a Fallout set in Europe, but... To me, at least, Fallout is built on the Vaults and 1950's U.S. culture. I'd have to play it to be sure, but I just wouldn't be as hyped about it.

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The vault project is explicitly an American project. Besides, FEV was an American project as well, and Europe was no longer a big player in the game anymore by the time the bombs fell. I'd rather expect a European version of Fallout to not resemble Fallout all that much. It'd probably actually resemble Point Lookout more than anything - generally pristine (not bombed to a radioactive stone age) and free of classic Fallout creatures like super mutants and centaurs. It would be, in short, a setting where the world slowly fell apart rather than being largely wiped out (and thus paradoxically preserved) in one shining instant.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool. New Vegas showed us a world where everything wasn't all radiation and anarchy, and most of the DLCs for both Bethesda-era games avoid using traditional Fallout enemies. We could be working towards a point where the fanbase won't have a collective conniption if they avoid some of the staples. I don't think we're there yet, but we could be approaching it.

Europe likely isn't much better of than the USA. Even if the bombs missed most of it, which is unlikely, it was still devasted by several kind of wars, from within and without. Europe as I imagine it is a conglomerate of "states", each held together by whatever faint idea of "national identity" or ideology they had, while clinging to old world decorum and the ruins of old marble palaces. Where America is the bright chrome future of the 50s gone bad, I imagine Europe as the dream of peace and unity gone bad, a union where common values melted like snow before the dire economical needs, to be replaced by xenophoby, hatred and isolationism.

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Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Europe likely isn't much better of than the USA. Even if the bombs missed most of it, which is unlikely, it was still devasted by several kind of wars, from within and without. Europe as I imagine it is a conglomerate of "states", each held together by whatever faint idea of "national identity" or ideology they had, while clinging to old world decorum and the ruins of old marble palaces. Where America is the bright chrome future of the 50s gone bad, I imagine Europe as the dream of peace and unity gone bad, a union where common values melted like snow before the dire economical needs, to be replaced by xenophoby, hatred and isolationism.

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Oh, I by no means meant that they were better off. They just wouldn't be priority targets for when the nukes fly. America got nuked. One flash pretty much wiped out everyone on the surface, creating this really creepy snapshot of the world that was, such as FO3 where there are still intact skeletons in the beds and cars just left on the street to rust.

Europe, however, wouldn't have gotten the mercy of a quick death. Look at the damage the raiders do in Fallout and then take out the damage the bombs did. Instead of one quick and clean flash, then humans popping out of vaults a bit at a time over the next few centuries, imagine instead that everything just slowly and painfully fell apart. No power, little food, no purpose - a commonwealth falling into nations, nations falling into cities, cities falling into neighborhoods, until it's all just raider tribes ripping each other and the land around them apart. Of course, even if they didn't use any nukes in their wars, they'd probably use biological and chemical weapons. Maybe an offshoot of FEV that some spy stole a sample of? We'd still have monsters and likely some level of nuclear fallout, but instead of a world that had gotten sterilized, we'd be in a world that had simply rotted.

It'd be a very different game - a different culture, a different logic, a different menagerie of abominations of science. Probably the only places still even remotely civilized (or, barring that, intact) would be the keeps and castles that had already weathered centuries of abuse and neglect. It'd be very interesting. But also very different, and some would argue not really "Fallout" anymore.

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr

Except for weapons.
And autodoc

The Legion is hypocritical about these "values". It will merely adopt the base minimal required technology to dominate, but doesnt seem.above using tech when it actually need it. The Legion always struct me as pragmatic, first and foremost. None of its ideals are inviolate as long as it assures victory.

Caesar himself basically admits it when it comes to his brain tumor. Or its temporary allies.

The Brotherhood/Legion alliance would, in my opinion, mirror the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus.

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Caesar is hypocritical, at any rate. That doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the Legion is - just look at how Lanius handles the Mohave if you side with them and Caesar dies: Crazy bastard crucifies everyone who looks at the Legion funny, no matter how useful they might be. Plus, even Caesar isn't willing to send troops down into the Securitron Vault for fear of them seeing too much old world tech. Would he really be willing to tolerate a bunch of experts on the subject hanging around?

Even if the Legion were willing to tolerate the Brotherhood, I'm not sure that that the Brotherhood would be particularly willing to work with the Legion. Half of them treat the NCR as a bunch of ignorant savages who don't deserve what they have, and the Legion is only worse on that front. Heck, that's how the whole NCR-Brotherhood war started! Up until Elder Jeremy Maxson spontaneously decided that the NCR didn't deserve to have technology, the Brotherhood and NCR were political and military allies. The NCR named the state that contained the Lost Hills bunker "Maxson", after John Maxson of the Brotherhood. They fought the Enclave remnants and sacked Navarro together too.

The Brotherhood had a successful and fruitful alliance with NCR that they threw away for ideological reasons. Why would they set those same ideological reasons aside to ally with an enemy that's clearly a million times more incompatible with them than the NCR ever was?

(Coincidentally, this is likely why it is possible to convince the Mojave Brotherhood to form a truce with the NCR but not with the Legion, despite the fact that the Brotherhood has fought the former a lot more than the latter: Because they have actual common ground. Though Caesar does mention that he's captured some Brotherhood Scribes "out east", which suggests that the Legion has fought the Fallout Tactics rendition of the Brotherhood before, so maybe he sort of has fought them a little.)

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Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Well, the Brotherhood is a pre-war power too, in the end, just like any high technology faction. High technology in Fallout is either in the hands of those who had the stuff when the bombs fell and managed to hold on to it, or by people who discovered old storehouses, for example.

Still, the NCR managed to build a real government with a standing (more-or-less) well equipped army basically from the ground up, and I could see that back in the core NCR, where they have actual schools and maybe even a university, (re)discovery will go a lot faster than out in the wasteland. So if something doesn't change, and soon, the BoS WILL be a footnote to the new empires. The capture of the Helios plant shows that.

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The Brotherhood isn't quite Pre-war like the Enclave was, since they grew out of an Army detachment that survived the war by holing up in Mariposa and only became the Brotherhood of Steel later, once it was clear that America was dead and they started to build an independent power base.

Nevertheless, you're absolutely right: The Brotherhood is utterly screwed if the status quo continues, without a doubt.

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Originally Posted by Gracht Grabmaw

I'd do something in Florida for two reasons, one because I am sick of deserts, I want tropical swamps and beaches and two, it's one of the most culturally diverse places in the US and I want to what happens when a melting pot goes nuclear.
Also, tribes of butt**** crazy hillbillies from the swamp riding mutant alligators into battle. You know you want to see that.

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This was apparently where Fallout Tactics 2 was going to take place, before it got canned. Also, I kind of want to see a postwar Disneyworld (or more likely an expy of such, because nobody will pay for the rights to use the real thing).

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Originally Posted by Cikomyr

I can only imagine what a Mutant Wolverine would look like. Or how the local tribals are using Nuclear-powered skates and chain hockey stick to fend off raiders.

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Wolverine is already a mutant. :smallwink:


Also, wasn't there a bit-part Hockey Gang in Fallout 3 somewhere? I kinda remember that they had a quest, but I'm drawing a blank.

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Originally Posted by BladeofObliviom

Also, wasn't there a bit-part Hockey Gang in Fallout 3 somewhere? I kinda remember that they had a quest, but I'm drawing a blank.

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Yes there is. They want you to get the Nuka Cola Crystal recipe from the Nuka Cola plant. I can't remember if it's a reward or just gear their leader is wearing, but the quest includes about the only item in the game that increases you AP pool (it's a hockey mask, but I always modded it to be a cool pair of glasses).

As far as Europe goes, I remember one of the game designers of Fallout 3 mentioning that the owner of whatever the evil towers (Tenleytown? It has that goul quest to it) is British, and the reason for that is to make players think, "If a Briton wants to immigrate to the Capitol Wasteland, how bad must Europe be?" They never expanded too much on it though.

I'd love to see a Fallout set in Louisiana. It'd have the same vibe as the Point Lookout DLC, but even more. The swamps, the ruins of New Orleans, witch doctors, the Deep South, it'd be great. Can you imagine mutated gators?