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Then Belkar would have become a vampire instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliaP
If they haven't then some of them might have died to the elemental, and others might have been killed by the army.Quote:
- Roy, Haley and Elan accepting Durkula into the party.
I don't think so. I think he was just getting killed. I may be misremembering. More importantly, there's only so much harm vampire Belkar can do compared to vampire Durkon destroying the world!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylian
Can someone remind me what happened with Ian and Haley again? I vaguely remember some strip where she basically said her father was on his own, but then later she invades the prison quarters and he refuses to leave but arranges for Roy to get him out, and then later again he jumps off the deck of an airship after talking with Tarquin? What was happening there?
The strip you vaguely remember never happened.
Positive? Something about 'he's done hard time before', and how going after the Gates was more pressing? I thought it was around their trip to the western continent, but mighta been before?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kish
That's the one you're talking about.
Ah, there we go. Obliged.
Not to mention if the Order went up against Belkar with Durkon they'd probably have the resources to dust him. More importantly, they'd be far more willing to kill a vampirized Belkar than a vampirized Durkon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Demonking
Belkar was very much going to get vamped, not just killed. Malack had just decided to sire new offspring when he bit him.
Granted, Vamp Belkar would have been a less formidable opponent and a less important casualty than Vamp Durkon, but I think it might be too soon to pass judgment on Belkar's potential role in saving the world.
The difference is that Belkar has no specific abilities that work against vampires, but Durkon does. Durkon can also cast Resurrection. So an Order with Durkon not only might be able to defeat Belkar they would also be able to get him back.Quote:
Originally Posted by hroşila
That's what made losing Durkon so bad - he was the only one who could repair the situation. Even Roy would have not been such a loss as losing Durkon to vampirism.
However, Roy + Elan + mostly-spell-less Durkon + Haley vs. Vamp-Belkar and Malack would have been a problematic fight for the Order.
Belkar actually most likely does have a specific ability vs undead. He has suggested that he chose undead as one of his favored enemies when he was threatening Durkon (from spending so much time fighting wights when they got split up). Still better to have Durkon than Belkar vs vampires though thanks to cleric spells designed to mess with undead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26
I think that there's something that people are missing about the relationship between Shojo and the Sapphire Guard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kish
First, as I read it, Shojo was commander of the Sapphire Guard by virtue of being the head of state of Azure City. I'm not sure that there's a way to legally (and in this content Lawfully) separate the 2 offices. So I think the only way to remove him as commander of the SG is to also remove him as ruler. And I'm not sure that the SG itself has the authority to do that. That Hinjo says that it would be left up to the courts implies that they don't.
Second, despite being the commander of the Sapphire Guard, he himself wasn't a Paladin. That doesn't seem to have been common knowledge; in fact, I'm not sure that anyone else, even Hinjo, knew the truth. However, there's no evidence that he ever actually lied about being a Paladin; instead, people just assumed that he was, and he didn't correct them.
Third, while he wasn't a Paladin, he did swear their oath to not interfere with the other gates.
Fourth, while we have no evidence that he ever lied about being a Paladin, he did lie about some other things.
And fifth, he did rig a trial.
So--the charges against him would be lying, oath-breaking, and rigging a trial. Let's toss out the lying--while we don't know the details of Azure City law, it would seem unlikely that any legal system outlaws lying outside of perjury and other forms of oath-breaking. And I'll toss out rigging the trial--he set up the trial as a means to contact the OotS, I'd argue that it was never a valid trial, so I don't think it could be criminal to rig it.
So, it all comes down to oath-breaking. Would breaking the secret oath of a semi-secret organization be ground for removal from office under Azure City law? Maybe. I don't know the answer to that, and while we might all have opinions, without the Giant weighing in on the matter, none of us can know for sure.
In my opinion, if we argue that the trial wasn't valid and therefore that rigging it shouldn't count, then what we have here at the very least is a case of abuse of power: he took advantage of his public office to commit an unlawful act in an official capacity by ordering the detention of some folks and staging a fake trial for them.
Yeah. I figure that if Shojo didn't have the legal authority to hold the trial in such a fashion, then him staging the trial as a trail would be fraud. A fraud rooted in abuse of his position, since the purported defendants were "retrieved" at his command, on the basis of the charges the trial was supposedly for.Quote:
Originally Posted by hroşila
In a city where people the likes of Kubota hold power, it strikes me as obvious that things like "oathbreaking" and "fraud" are not automatic disqualifiers for any position, but rather something to hold lengthy court cases over.
Frankly the whole argument that "Hinjo knows he lied, therefore the game is up" doesn't hold water against a long-standing competent politician with tons of money, and influence, and experience. The more likely outcome is "Hinjo knows he lied, therefore there will be some minor political struggles in a city already full of political struggles".
The offices were initially separate, as Soon was not ruler of Azure City when he founded the Sapphire Guard. He passed the post to Shojo's father, who was ruler of Azure City, when Soon was near death.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
So I suppose it's possible again for the two posts to become separate, although I'm really not sure how.
Easy. Be conquered by a people that does not have paladins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruck
Oh, wait ...
Abuse of power? Who cares? He did not personally gain from this abuse, but was attempting to carry out his duties in a manner that bent the law. In a society that lacks a formalized Bill of Rights or similar, it just does not matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by hroşila
IMHO the only thing that matters here is that the Paladins would no longer accept Shojo's leadership once it becomes clear he used his authority as head of the SG to assist in breaking his oath to the SG, even if he did so with the intention of serving the spirit of the purpose of the oath.
We really do not know that either leadership of Azure City or leadership of the SG is hereditary or that they are tied together, just because that was the story since Soon.
Soon founded the Sapphire Guard.
Assuming that's correct, I don't suppose you have evidence that Azure City lacks such...or has such, for that matter? It'd help narrow down what Hinjo could reasonably expect Shojo to be charged for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snails
Hinjo & Roy agree between them that Belkar was "imprisoned falsely by a ruler acting outside the law" when he escaped and killed that guard:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasdoif
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html
which is how Belkar's charge got reduced to Voluntary Manslaughter.
I'm not seeing Hinjo doing a lot of agreeing in that strip you link. As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for the imminent attack on Azure City and him needing all the help he can get right now, I don't see Hinjo and Roy agreeing on anything about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
...but that strip does show that Hinjo can commute prison sentences on the right of Quia Ego Sic Dico, which (again) suggests that Shojo acted perfectly within his legal authority (if not his moral one, from a paladin's POV).
Roy's comment was
"I'm the one who talked Hinjo into reducing the charges to manslaughter, since you were imprisoned falsely by a ruler acting outside the bounds of the law."
The implication is that this was the argument Roy made that convinced Hinjo to reduce the charges.
Presumably, Roy also explained exactly what Shojo had done with the whole party - clearing up what Hinjo had overheard Shojo saying.
Hinjo agreeing to reduce the charges could be nothing more than a negotiation/manipulation tactic for what was to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
The point is that (1) Roy would never have done that if Shojo was alive, and (2) Hinjo would never have accepted it if not for the imminent goblin attack. That's not agreement, that's extreme duress.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
Since we're on the topic of blunders, it's actually a huge blunder on Hinjo's part to give clemency to Grand Larceny Dude and Tsukiko (and that scruffy old guy who declined), especially without first using Detect Evil on them. I mean seriously, what was he expecting by taking three known enemies of the state out of jail and giving them an easy opportunity to either flee or do more damage?
It's a commonly used trope in action movies: Get out of jail and complete some missions for us to reduce your sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
I think it is actually pretty cool by the Giant to subvert this by telling "well, these guys are still *******s, that's why they were in the jail in the first place. What did you expect?"
(except for Tsukiko. Unnatural wizardry seems kinda stupid law - but the story was good nevertheless)
Tsukiko being arrested is actually pretty interesting. I don't think they ever clarified what those acts of unnatural wizardry were. Depending on what exactly the details of her crime were affects just how bad of an idea it was to release her. If say the unnatural wizardry was animating the dead as it most likely was releasing her against undead was a terrible idea. She might be extremely effective against them but she is also more likely to side with them particularly considering her love for the undead. If it was something else they just released a criminal with the ability to kill everyone with her (or escape from everyone with her)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightymosy
Releasing Belkar for the siege was an error in judgement even if it turned out alright. A convicted murderer (well manslaughterer I guess) who killed a guard and actively tried to make a paladin fall and was willing to die to accomplish that isn't exactly someone you want on your side even he is magically compelled not to kill anything living in the city.
I wouldn't suggest the grand larceny guy was a blunder to release though. It turned out terribly but if there was someone who was just going to run away after killing some of the enemies it was him. If he killed some enemies with out killing any Azurites then he was profit. Of course it turns out he accepted a job as an assassin but his crime at least didn't suggest he was a cold blooded killer.
And indeed, if it wasn't for being afraid no one else could remove the Mark of Justice, Belkar would have gleefully assisted Hinjo's murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamste
Given what we know about vampires, there's no reason to believe that other intelligent undead work differently. Creating intelligent undead that kidnap the souls of their host and emotionally torture them for all of their existence seems something that a paladin nation very well should outlaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightymosy