I just now realized that Miko has access to exactly one form of healing.

Yes, that's a sleight-of-hand trick. One sentence asserts that other people are bafflingly overconvinced that Soon was saying Miko wasn't going to a lower plane, the next sentence is right back to asserting that he AS GOOD AS SAID SHE WAS!!!!!1111.

You've already declared failure to read that scene exactly the way you do as showing irrational thinking, alwaysbebatman; at least have the integrity to own it.

@dps: I'm not going for "certain" so much as "likely," at this point....

@kish: *shrug*

Well, he doesn't come out and say it. But I do believe that the implication is very strong and very clear. I do find it strange just how many people seem to feel otherwise, but... an implication by its nature can't be definitive... it is what it is.

This isn't supposed to be an alignment thread or an afterlife thread; it was quite clearly meant as a (low) wisdom-score thread.

That was settled definitively in the first reply.

Drift happens.

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Originally Posted by enderlord99

This isn't supposed to be an alignment thread or an afterlife thread; it was quite clearly meant as a (low) wisdom-score thread.

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I think it's proven the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom quite well :p

Regarding the posthumous abilities thing, if the comic goes by raw at all then Miko would immediately lose all class levels and become a petitioner, only to regain said levels if she were raised. Also I always assumed followers of the various OoTS gods went to the plane of their deity, and only the generic alignment afterlives if they weren't particularly pious. Under that reading of things, I assumed Soon and (most if not all of) the other paladins were going to the twelve gods' plane, and Miko a generic Lawful and or good Afterlife.

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Originally Posted by dps

FWIW, I'm not convinced that he didn't mean what you think he meant; I'm simply not convinced that he did mean what you think, either.

EDIT: Nor am I convinced that Soon knew for certain where Miko was headed anyway.

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He probably has a good idea. He's been floating in the throne room for decades and has had plenty of time to observe Miko in action, both in great things and lesser.

That idea opens another can of worms, much larger than anything in this thread so far. If Soon knew Miko well enough to guess her afterlife destination (for good or ill) based on observing her over decades, why didn't he warn Shojo "she's a lot more unstable and dangerous than you realize"?

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Originally Posted by Kish

That idea opens another can of worms, much larger than anything in this thread so far. If Soon knew Miko well enough to guess her afterlife destination (for good or ill) based on observing her over decades, why didn't he warn Shojo "she's a lot more unstable and dangerous than you realize"?

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What makes you think he didn't? Shojo's judgment when it came to the paladins, and Miko in particular, was clearly flawed. Besides which, Shojo is chaotic. He hates being told what to do

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Originally Posted by RatElemental

Regarding the posthumous abilities thing, if the comic goes by raw at all then Miko would immediately lose all class levels and become a petitioner, only to regain said levels if she were raised.

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I think Roy's post-death experience clearly shows that isn't happening. He was perfectly able to help fight off the evil adventuring party who Plane Shifted in at one point, and he was also able to understand when his grandfather showed him how to do that anti-magic feat.

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Originally Posted by factotum

I think Roy's post-death experience clearly shows that isn't happening. He was perfectly able to help fight off the evil adventuring party who Plane Shifted in at one point, and he was also able to understand when his grandfather showed him how to do that anti-magic feat.

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Yeah, they definitely don't lose abilities while there (unless that's part of the process as they move farther up the mountain) and can learn new things. However, something I haven't seen anyone note is that the newly gained information doesn't stay with the person if they're brought back to life with a few rare exceptions.

When Roy was raised, he didn't remember 99% of what happened after he died which would make it tough to gain XP or learn new feats or whatever. Roy managing to retain the inspiration for the new trick with his sword (not gaining the feat, just even having access to it once he got another feat) was probably fairly unusual.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

I agree, I believe she absolutely does NOT change alignment at the same time as her fall. As I've said, her fall served as a warning sign from her gods that she was on the wrong path.

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Yes, but... this kinda raises other questions about what the Gods aren't saying to their mortal followers.

(1) Why not send Sangwaan an urgent memo about the hobgoblin army, given events of the Godsmoot make it perfectly clear there are channels of communication between the Gods and their senior clerics?
(2) Why does the ethnic-cleansing nutcase running the Sapphire Guard in O-Chul's time not get a similar pyrotechnic display? Shouldn't Good deities be concerned about policies of indiscriminate collateral damage?

Don't get me wrong, I think killing Shojo was absolutely fall-worthy and would have been regardless of evidence, but... I'm not sure the Gods' opinions on the matter really count for much.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Since it's not a family-centered story, Miko's gender is barely relevant. It leads to Roy's judgment being briefly clouded by his gonads, other than that it wouldn't effect the story in any way if Miko had been a male character instead...

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Oh, you, at least, have the excuse of several hundred extra pages of story during which Miko's character went steeply downhill to colour your opinion of her motives. There are totally legitimate reasons for having a dim opinion of someone who, e.g, tried to kill Hinjo in an irrational fit of pique.

But prior to the trial scene? Hell, no. Those people had no excuse.

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Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster

(1) Why not send Sangwaan an urgent memo about the hobgoblin army, given events of the Godsmoot make it perfectly clear there are channels of communication between the Gods and their senior clerics?

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Firstly, I'm not entirely sure Sangwaan was a cleric. Secondly, even if she was, pretty much any question you want to ask about the plot will come back to "Why didn't the Gods do anything about that?", to which the answer seems to be "They have strictly limited ability to interact with events on the world below due to agreements between them". The Dark One has never appeared directly to Redcloak, for example--he got a massive infodump from the Scarlet Mantle when he first put it on, and the only other example of communication was the "Don't screw this up" that was passed along via Jirix when he was raised from the dead. If more direct means of communication were available, don't you think he'd have used them?

I don't think the Godsmoot shows anything about the ability of gods to communicate with their clerics, because in that case it was explicitly the Gods talking to each other--the clerics were just there to set up neutral ground where that conversation could take place, since Loki and Thor for a start wouldn't normally speak to each other much.

This does raise the question of why Hel and her high priest can apparently communicate directly, of course, but since he's actually a vampire spirit that was birthed in her halls (and thus technically an Outsider) then that might be why things are different there.

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Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster

Don't get me wrong, I think killing Shojo was absolutely fall-worthy and would have been regardless of evidence, but... I'm not sure the Gods' opinions on the matter really count for much.

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That's kind of like saying that if you get hauled into traffic court, the judge's opinion on what would be an appropriate fine doesn't count for much.

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Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster

Oh, you, at least, have the excuse of several hundred extra pages of story during which Miko's character went steeply downhill to colour your opinion of her motives. There are totally legitimate reasons for having a dim opinion of someone who, e.g, tried to kill Hinjo in an irrational fit of pique.

But prior to the trial scene? Hell, no. Those people had no excuse.

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Yeah, I completely disagree. Very early on it would have been conceivable from what we saw that she'd turn out to have a heart of gold hiding under the off-putting exterior, but it was never especially likely.

If course, it's not impossible for her to be relentlessly unkind and yet remain on the side of the angels. Eugene seems to manage it. But that's not the most dramatic option...

Just one example of a sign of where she was headed before she ever killed Shojo-- Belkar trying to provoke her to murder him. It's not just the fact that she would have done it if Shojo hadn't stopped her. But more the fact that Belkar saw that potential in her. As much as he hated her, he wouldn't have chosen that specific revenge except that he perceived that it would work. (He hated her, but sensed a kinship, I think. A similar lack of moral compass. They both chose a code in place of an intrinsic motivation: hers was the paladin code, his was "for the lols.")

I get the impression that some people don't want to see Miko for what she was from the start because some of the people arguing for that back then we're doing so for invalid reasons: ie, hateful misogyny. But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Yeah, I completely disagree. Very early on it would have been conceivable from what we saw that she'd turn out to have a heart of gold hiding under the off-putting exterior, but it was never especially likely.

If course, it's not impossible for her to be relentlessly unkind and yet remain on the side of the angels. Eugene seems to manage it. But that's not the most dramatic option...

Just one example of a sign of where she was headed before she ever killed Shojo-- Belkar trying to provoke her to murder him. It's not just the fact that she would have done it if Shojo hadn't stopped her. But more the fact that Belkar saw that potential in her. As much as he hated her, he wouldn't have chosen that specific revenge except that he perceived that it would work.

I get the impression that some people don't want to see Miko for what she was from the start because some of the people arguing for that back then we're doing so for invalid reasons: ie, hateful misogyny. But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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Belkar's plan to get Miko to Fall has some serious flaws in it. Besides the lack of resurrection capabilities, he also neglected to take into account that he's an evil murderer who escaped justice, continually assaulted her and made it clear he intended to fight to his death.

Furthermore, I think Miko's less attractive qualities were told, not shown, until the Inn Scene, and even then she had a point that the Order was largely responsible for the destruction. If you've ever played a real game of D&D, I'm sure the NPCs in your game felt the same way about your PCs.

How do you figure? His plan was to provoke her to the point that she kills him when she could and should have taken him prisoner. A plan that would have worked except for Shojo. He was clearly prepared to die for the lols.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

How do you figure? His plan was to provoke her to the point that she kills him when she could and should have taken him prisoner. A plan that would have worked except for Shojo. He was clearly prepared to die for the lols.

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A paladin is not required to spare the lives of her enemies, especially not when they've shown that prison cant hold them. The only reason she had to imprison Belkar again instead of execute him is because Shojo told her to back off, and obeying legitimate authority is part of the paladin code.

I prefer to think the halfling knew something we don't than vice versa, so that the plot remains coherent.

Perhaps murdering Belkar would have been an acceptable execution in the countryside but a violation of law in the city, where executions can't legally be effected without a trial? And Belkar would have known that via his life of crime before joining the Order?

Maybe. It seems clear that the author preferred to only hint at what Belkar was trying to accomplish by provoking Miko and not lay it out explicitly.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

I prefer to think the halfling knew something we don't than vice versa, so that the plot remains coherent.

Perhaps murdering Belkar would have been an acceptable execution in the countryside but a violation of law in the city, where executions can't legally be effected without a trial? And Belkar would have known that via his life of crime before joining the Order?

Maybe. It seems clear that the author preferred to only hint at what Belkar was trying to accomplish by provoking Miko and not lay it out explicitly.

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Youre attributing hidden knowledge to Belkar? Take some time to consider what we know of him, and then you may want to reconsider your stance.

Also, Belkar was pretty explicit at what he wanted to accomplish with Miko. V points out that his plan is greatly flawed, as is consistent for Belkar.

I had forgotten about Vaarsuvius's "your plan was dumb" speech. (Thank you!) But if the author believed that the Miko-falling part of the plan was flawed, too, wouldn't he have had Vaarsuvius criticize that part as well?

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

I had forgotten about Vaarsuvius's "your plan was dumb" speech. (Thank you!) But if the author believed that the Miko-falling part of the plan was flawed, too, wouldn't he have had Vaarsuvius criticize that part as well?

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No? Theres only so much time on panel for words. He chose the most obvious flaw of "Belkar would be dead" to that plan to talk about. That doesn't mean there aren't other flaws to it, just that V chose to talk about the most obvious one.

Also, V has in the past expressed a general lack of interest in understanding any magic that isn't arcane, to the point of calling a cleric's magic "not real". V would hardly be an expert on the mechanics of a paladin, a largely martial class.

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Originally Posted by Kish

That idea opens another can of worms, much larger than anything in this thread so far. If Soon knew Miko well enough to guess her afterlife destination (for good or ill) based on observing her over decades, why didn't he warn Shojo "she's a lot more unstable and dangerous than you realize"?

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Well, sure, yes. But I'd consider that a minor facet of the larger 'why are higher powers behaving like idiots' problem.

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Originally Posted by factotum

I don't think the Godsmoot shows anything about the ability of gods to communicate with their clerics, because in that case it was explicitly the Gods talking to each other--the clerics were just there to set up neutral ground where that conversation could take place...

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Which would presumably require telling said clerics that they wanted neutral ground to be set up in the first place. (And also raises the question of why they don't order said clerics to chase after Xykon, but I digress.) So yes, from my perspective I'm afraid that having the Gods orchestrate that meeting does make vast segments of the plot completely baffling.

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Originally Posted by dps

That's kind of like saying that if you get hauled into traffic court, the judge's opinion on what would be an appropriate fine doesn't count for much.

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When the judge appears to be asleep on the bench most of the time and hands out wildly varying fines for similar or worse offences, then... yes, I think it does call their competence into question.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Yeah, I completely disagree. Very early on it would have been conceivable from what we saw that she'd turn out to have a heart of gold hiding under the off-putting exterior, but it was never especially likely...

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Okay, ABB, how about this- you tell me what action Miko would have to take in order to convince you that she had a heart of gold lurking under her abrasive surface. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Just bear in mind you'll need to pass a higher bar than, e.g, "risks life pulling people out of burning building, then eschews personal reward from head of state to pay damages to those affected", because... that apparently wasn't good enough for you. Let's just establish what your standards are here.

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Showing kindness towards any being. Even Belkar's done that.

ETA: I take that back: she did show genuine feeling for Windstriker at the end. Another commanality between her and Belkar, actually. Able to forge a connection with a companion animal, but not with fellow sapient beings.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Showing kindness towards any being. Even Belkar's done that.

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Good Is Not Nice.

Furthermore, theres a bonus scene in... W&XP? I think? either that or Paladin Blues, where Miko tries to approach some fellow paladins about dining together, and she is pretty thoroughly rebuked. Miko has little reason to be kind to anybody.

Right. I've acknowledged she was Good (by D&D rules) at that time.

It's not a surprise when nasty turns evil. And she gave people plenty of reason to socially shun her. Maybe everything could have changed for her if somebody tried to reach out to her. But who's to say people didn't, just to be rebuked?

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Right. I've acknowledged she was Good (by D&D rules) at that time.

It's not a surprise when nasty turns evil. And she gave people plenty of reason to socially shun her. Maybe everything could have changed for her if somebody tried to reach out to her. But who's to say people didn't, just to be rebuked?

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She doesn't necessarily become evil. She Falls, but that is not remotely the same thing.

Furthermore, there was plenty of reason to be surprised when the attacks Shojo. Miko was shown to be prone to violence, but up until that point the targets of her wrath had given her good reason to come into conflict with them.

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Originally Posted by alwaysbebatman

Showing kindness towards any being...

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Ah, but that's just asking her not to have an abrasive exterior. So again, I ask you- what action could Miko take that would convince you she had a heart of gold beneath her abrasive exterior?

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Originally Posted by Keltest

A paladin is not required to spare the lives of her enemies, especially not when they've shown that prison cant hold them. The only reason she had to imprison Belkar again instead of execute him is because Shojo told her to back off, and obeying legitimate authority is part of the paladin code.

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While I don't think she absolutely (or maybe even probably) would have fallen. Are you saying this in an inherent fall capacity or that Miko absolutely had no possible obligations or reasons to spare Belkar? Also his escape involved what could be described as an error on the city's part. (and possibly more specific than that)